Neoseeker : News : Rumor: Next Xbox is always online, runs 50GB Blu-ray discs, and blocks used games
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BlackScythe Feb 7, 13
Every time I've done DLC or an Arcade game it's been fully downloaded onto my hard drive, not sure what you've been experiencing.
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Lorx Feb 7, 13
No surprises to see here. Though the "always online" bit was a chuckle. Maybe Microsoft didn't learn so much from what they're copying as they should have.

I guess consumers could choose to not buy the next XBOX out of a sense of self-entitlement, but seeing as Sony has the same rumors floating, where are you going to go? Could purchase a WiiU and hope it gets ports of your favorite games, but we all know how much Microsoft loves keeping specific series exclusive, no more Halo or Gears of War for you. Good luck with other titles.

It's not all that bad to not be able to resell your games. Microsoft isn't going crazy by forcing players to actually buy their content in a way where they get some kind of return. Looking forward to seeing all those who complained about how this is a "deal breaker" buying the console anyway.
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Shinobi_razor Feb 7, 13
Gamestop and a number of other retailers will be fighting tooth and nail against the no used games thing, i really dont know if that part of the rumor will actually happen. both MS and Sony are kidding themselves if they really expect people to be ok with no used games. i think that will cause a big influx of people switching to PC. what they should do instead is give an advantage to new copies that you have registered on your account, like additional content or game modes that arent available if playing a used copy.

besides that, i dont plan on getting rid of my 360 right away either.
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Lorx Feb 7, 13
Gamestop/other retailers are the reason why used game sales really started to hurt publishers/developers. While they will try to fight back, I don't really think they have footing to combat this after years of working completely against those same companies. They've been spitting in the face of every single publisher and developer for a very long time, to turn around and try to fix that now, bit late if you ask me. This kind of used game blocking has been rumored for months and months, because there are finally good alternatives to depending on Gamestop&co, and those methods (digital, online stores, whatever) have been fully embraced by Microsoft and Sony even in current generation consoles, in prep for splitting even further from the stores that have been basically taking advantage of them this entire time.
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BlackScythe Feb 7, 13
Gamestop didn't "hurt" developers. If they made good games people wouldn't be trading them in after a day.
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Slash Feb 7, 13
quote BlackScythe
Gamestop didn't "hurt" developers. If they made good games people wouldn't be trading them in after a day.

Just shut up dude.
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Lorx Feb 7, 13
quote BlackScythe
Gamestop didn't "hurt" developers. If they made good games people wouldn't be trading them in after a day.
How does that even make sense? Even running with your statement that every game that has been released on the 360 is crap, used sales do hurt developers. They just do, that's not even a debatable point, developers don't get any money from those sales, whereas they do get a cut from any new game sold. What does Gamestop do as a corporation? Push used game sales as hard as they can. That hurts developers, whether you believe it's a deserved hurt or not is irrelevant to the point that it does exist in the first place. Though I would certainly hope you've found enjoyment in at least one game you've purchased in the past like, four years.
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The Slayer Feb 7, 13
Lorx, just because developers dont make anything off sales of used games doesnt mean they should stop allowing it. Lots of stuff is bought and sold as used and the original manufacture doesnt get any type of cut from it. If I sell my car to someone else, the manufacture doesnt get any type of cut from it.

Its also not like the developers are really hurting for money, at least not as far as I know.
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Zombie_Barioth Feb 7, 13
Crusad3r Your right about Intel being the better option for heat & power reduction but that would also increase manufacturing costs, which would mean either they either have to raise the price or take a bigger hit themselves. The reason this gen was so long was partly due to having such a bad start, Sony and MS each took huge hits so they probably stalled to recoup as much as possible. I doubt we'll see such a long gen this time but Sony (can't speak for MS) can't take a big hit on hardware this time around.

I think the problem on the consumer side is most people don't really understand PCs and by extension consoles. They only see the price without any consideration for why its that much, despite likely knowing the saying you get what you pay for. Or I suppose they see the price as expensive so they assume its powerful.

On the topic of used games I don't second hand sales as detrimental to the industry as a whole, after all every other industry has a second hand market but the only difference here is GS. They make most of they're profits from used games and thats why they push them so hard, more so than any other company.
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Crave Feb 7, 13
Online only is just ridiculous, and The Slayer makes a great point about used games.
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Shinobi_razor Feb 7, 13
quote Lorx
Gamestop/other retailers are the reason why used game sales really started to hurt publishers/developers.
not true. developers arent really hurt at all like the rumor going around is. the pub pays them (or gives them money) flat to make the game and pay the employees regardless of how the game does. they rarely get any kind of percentage of sales or anything like that. if anything its the publisher thats hurt, but when you got Activision and EA who literally bleed money, a game doing mediocre isnt a huge deal. other big pubs like Ubisoft, Capcom, Konami, etc arent doing bad either. especially when you remember that for a game to show up used at Gamestop, somebody already purchased it new.
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Phil Anselmo Feb 8, 13
quote Shinobi_razor
quote Lorx
Gamestop/other retailers are the reason why used game sales really started to hurt publishers/developers.
not true. developers arent really hurt at all like the rumor going around is. the pub pays them (or gives them money) flat to make the game and pay the employees regardless of how the game does. they rarely get any kind of percentage of sales or anything like that. if anything its the publisher thats hurt, but when you got Activision and EA who literally bleed money, a game doing mediocre isnt a huge deal. other big pubs like Ubisoft, Capcom, Konami, etc arent doing bad either. especially when you remember that for a game to show up used at Gamestop, somebody already purchased it new.
You're talking about major game developers. Of course it's not hurting them as bad... but used game sales definitely hurt the smaller companies.

I'm all for it, as long as it A) lowers the price of games B) lets us transfer 'license' and C) the online only thing is only for activation.
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Lorx Feb 8, 13
quote Shinobi_razor
quote Lorx
Gamestop/other retailers are the reason why used game sales really started to hurt publishers/developers.
not true. developers arent really hurt at all like the rumor going around is. the pub pays them (or gives them money) flat to make the game and pay the employees regardless of how the game does. they rarely get any kind of percentage of sales or anything like that. if anything its the publisher thats hurt, but when you got Activision and EA who literally bleed money, a game doing mediocre isnt a huge deal. other big pubs like Ubisoft, Capcom, Konami, etc arent doing bad either. especially when you remember that for a game to show up used at Gamestop, somebody already purchased it new.
(publishers pay the developers, if the publishers get hurt, the developers, by proxy, are hurt)

It's as you imply, games are mighty expensive to craft, and if a game only hits mediocre with a budget that large, it comes crashing down really fast on wallets. And those publishers will sooner cut off developers than hit themselves. Arguably, it's developers that get hurt more. We saw what happened to THQ, not only was the publisher disbanded, but a few of it's development teams as well. Sold off piece by piece to highest bidder.

quote The Slayer
Lorx, just because developers dont make anything off sales of used games doesnt mean they should stop allowing it. Lots of stuff is bought and sold as used and the original manufacture doesnt get any type of cut from it. If I sell my car to someone else, the manufacture doesnt get any type of cut from it.

Its also not like the developers are really hurting for money, at least not as far as I know.
There's where I make the distinction though, or the splitting difference. I guess it goes back to the hilarious old Would you download a car? advertisement we are all so fond of, but instead of Would you, the question is...Could you?

Paying for a car is rather straigh-forward, you want a vehicle, something capable of moving you from point A to point B at various speeds, and in relative safety. Once you are done using said vehicle, it's use isn't used up, it's not like the car is drained of what it was sold to do, it could go on for years and years after that, re-selling it is kind of a "whatever", and in most cases car dealerships will take tradeins themselves anyway. We all know how greased hair car business runs. The high price is sold to the consumer because the dealership makes more off of it, etc etc.

Now, there's two major, major things to note here;
  • When that guy with the sleazy suit tries to sell a car, he's selling the expensive, new one. The option that is both profitable for him and his source of new cars. Everybody wins, except that consumer that just got tricked into a really bad payment plan.
  • Video games are not vehicles, they're media.
So, breaking this down from the top. Simple first, when you buy from a car dealership, they push new. An act that benefits both dealership (distributor and in some cases publisher), and makes sure both can live to see a new tomorrow. This is vastly different from Gamestop, or any other Gaming store (will just be saying Gamestop for the sake of "you know what I mean"). They'll sell used first, and in fact, there's employees, like CynicalBrit/TotalBiscuit, who have openly said that in their store they had to pressure used sales, if somebody came to the counter, they were supposed to pressure a used sale, saying it would save the consumer money. This is vastly different than greasy car saledude, because it immediately makes the sale worth it only to the distributor. The publisher, and thus, developer, sees nothing. Breaking the line of trust. As a PC gamer, you're probably well-versed in the old Gamestop vs PC Sales from like a decade ago, and remember that PC games aren't really in Gamestops much anymore, because you can't do used sales on them, there's just not as much money for Gamestop in those. And that's because it's just more profitable for Gamestop to sell a game they bought for $5 store credit off a kid, rather than pay publishers for new stock. Aka, putting the money where it needs to go, for new games to be made. And the reason why publishers don't bail out these stores when they start faltering like GAME Australia. Gamestops put that distributor-publisher trust on the ground, smash it up, and sell it for profit. I know that sounds cruel, but it's really what's been happening for years. It's why Sony and Microsoft are both stepping up their digital stores and other means of distrobution, they don't have to deal with the middle-man's crap anymore. Something they see works perfectly fine on PC.

So, next comes point two, video games are media. As a sentence, that is not a hard sale. I think we can all agree here we buy video games for the experience and not for the fancy disc and the art printed on it. Second set of things is fancy and nice yes, but is not the core reason why we buy. That's an important point to understand, that what you are buying is not the disc. The disc is just a means of holding your media until you are ready to consume.
Stop.
Read that last sentence again, I know you think you remember it, but do it, and do so carefully.
Focus on that word, consume and think about that for a second. Now we're ready to draw parallels that aren't as ridiculous as a video game is a vehicle. Media is consumable. Not like, literally, you can't put a fork in it, cut it up, and shove it in your mouth. It's an experience, meant to be consumed by your mind, to elicit feelings or show the consumer things that they never might have seen, far away lands, whatever. So, if there's any one thing that video games could be compared to, what might that be?

I have to ask at this point, did you guys see the Hobbit this month? Such a good movie, loved it. Got my ticket for free too actually, because of a deal going on with the theater, and a separate deal got me a free popcorn and drink too. Handed that ticket right over to the employee checkpoint and went on my merry way. Watched the movie, drowned in popcorn butter, left a happy camper with a useless ticket stub.

So, back to games, they're like Movies. Refer to the above if you need an example or image to follow along here, or think about it more. I mean yeah, both are media, duh, but what else do they have in common? Tickets yo. Tickets. Your disc of Call of Battlefield 2: Electric Boogaloo, is your movie ticket for your very own home. You can buy that sucker and use it as many times as you want, but once you've had that experience...can you resell those feelings? That...well, experience you've consumed? Of course not, you consumed it. Being able to resell that would mean being able to copy the experience for somebody else, creating new where there wasn't before. Somewhat akin to pirating, something those same publishers also hate for the same reasons. Not going to beat a dead horse to undeath with this, as I'm pretty sure three paragraphs is enough explanation, but there is one more thing I'd like to mention.

Which requires going back to that Hobbit example. True story by the way, which is a bit important if you've never heard of Steam or GoG I guess. So there's one major problem with cutting out used sales right? What does that kid living on $20 allowance a month do. What does the example, Steam, and every other PC digital retailer do? Sales man, so many sales. That theater had tons of different deals to make seeing movies there affordable to College Student Bro and Bro2, since this is mainly a college town. Video games, being geared towards anybody from elementary school to ninety-five, has to also adjust prices and accommodate the people they wish to sell to in price for new product. Or else, how would those people buy those games? Even if you're a console gamer, you've probably heard stories about how ridiculous Steam sales are. That's their main method of making sure things are affordable. Will stuff go on sale on release? Eh, preorders are usually 10% off I guess, but other than that no. But on that point, new release month stuff always kind of comes at a premium anyway, since it's new. Once it's been out a month or two, sales start going off, and people with lower budgets can grab that. Is it wrong that people with higher income can get newer things? Sounds like basic economics to me there. Though of course the other option is stuff like Micro-transactions, which has also been embraced by PC gamers. Means every game is affordable to everybody, since their entrance fee is either low or free, and while playing you can set your own kind of payment schedule. Benefiting both the player who wants to spend $500, and the player who wants to spend $5, rather than just marketing to the player who wants to spend $60 (I hope somebody recognizes that quote).

In closing, why do I not see any problem with this at all? I'm a PC gamer yo, been living without used game sales for years. Don't need 'em. You know what other industry has said the exact same thing? Books. The massive store chain Borders died, who lived? B&N. What have they done with their lives these past five years? Pressured the crap out of digital sales. Don't even get me started on the music industry man, digital distribution is what really took a chunk out of piracy there.

Always-online DRM, that I find hilarious though. Would figure Microsoft would have learned from Ubisoft's failure there.

Oh, one final note, forgot you mentioned developers weren't in pain.
Every developer under THQ, Relic, Vigil, whatever. There were like...six?
Gas Powered Games
Petroglyph
Whoever EA let go, I know they ditched somebody

That's off the top of my head, from news posts on neo this past month alone.
Last edited by Lorx :: Feb 8, 13
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Shinobi_razor Feb 8, 13
alright valid points.

only thing though, you're fooling yourself if you think doing this will cause the price of games to drop. they know they can get $60 out of them, that wont change. so we dont even get that benefit.
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Lorx Feb 8, 13
quote Shinobi_razor
alright valid points.

only thing though, you're fooling yourself if you think doing this will cause the price of games to drop. they know they can get $60 out of them, that wont change. so we dont even get that benefit.
$60 works now, the question they will have to answer is...will it work when consumers won't be able to make some of it back?

Maximum sales #'s is good for both consumer and publisher, as it means the publisher made more money from selling as many copies through as many methods and prices as possible. For the consumer it's good as obviously more consumers got it, or could get it. It's why many digital PC vendors run sales all the time, every week if they can, and good ones. Selling a copy at a reduced price to somebody who wouldn't spend $60, is still money in pocket for them, and a satisfied customer, which is good in and of itself. It's also worth it to keep in mind that those cheaper consumers, who can't afford $60 every couple weeks, are important people to publishers and developers. They're usually the ones with the time and energy to work on services such as wikis, youtube videos, LP's, all that kind of stuff that builds upon a game's popularity and market awareness. Super, super important group, leaving them out in the cold by making them unable to afford your stuff? Death wish. Publishers are well aware of this, and not seeing some kind of system or sales built in to accommodate would be a big surprise from me.
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