Neoseeker : News : Rumour: Nintendo may be working on a cartridge to allow streaming between 3DS and Wii U
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annihilate Jan 3, 13
Sorry I didn't follow nicknames.
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ProudLoz Jan 3, 13
quote annihilate
You're wrong and wright.

Apple Airplay has nothing to do with this, normal Wifi Tech is too laggy for this to work. Apple marketing just stamps a fancy name on everything. And most of the magic that makes it super-low-latency is in the proprietary transmission protocol as well as the decompression/compression process developed by Nintendo it self. Nobody shares that technology, and Broadcoms Miracast was not even developed fully when Broadcom started cooperating with Nintendo.

Yes it is hardware based because that's how it achieves it's performance, it's compressed/decompressed by CODEC LSI component before sent to the wireless module. WiiU's CPU is then free of this burden, and Nintendo as always has an AUDIO DSP which takes more burden off the CPU as they aren't good at processing audio, a dedicated audio chip is 10 times better.

The word "streaming" really doesn't fit with this because it's been used mainly in inefficient laggy web-based applications, and I can see you use it as exactly in this tone. No you will not need any ridicolous amount of RAM, or storage to save any "streaming" data. It only takes a buffer, gets instantly deleted. This is not youtube man.

It's not so much in the wireless transmission as it is more in the two-way decompression and compression of the signal, because of the bandwidth limits this has to be done, the bottleneck is not the processing, as they've done an engineering marvel in software performance, the problem why you can't have more than 2 Gamepads on one WiiU is totally not the GPU CPU processing as the noobs want you to think, it's wireless bandwidth, it's the bottleneck, and if they have more Gamepads, the frame rate needs to go down for all of them in order to show the video without pixel corruption. So 2 Gamepads will operate at 30FPS, half the bandwidth each, to work properly.
Like I said, it was a total guess just based on a similar tech/protocol used by Apple that I know a bit about.

Also, if you actually followed the thread, you would have know that I corrected myself and knew that it was a hardware based issue as to why it would need a cartridge.

Finally, streaming is the correct word since the Wii U console is transmitting this data to the GamePad to receive, the only difference is that it's not buffering the video for you to rewind back to. I only assumed that it would need more memory because I thought it buffered the stream, but that's obviously not the case here.
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annihilate Jan 3, 13
quote bbb7002004
But the Wii U console does all the video processing, the gamepad is just a receiver/transmitter. I don't see why you'd need much processing power on the 3DS side of things.
That's why they call it "terminal device" in the patents. Pretty obvious, if people would research before they say things they have no idea about.

Practically, the 3DS GPU could be shut off and CPU in low activity (depends if they include CODEC LSI in cartrige or not) increasing the battery life substantially when in Gamepad Mode.

Most people don't realize what Nintendo has done here is revolutionary and a giant mark in the history. The common streaming you have is only video and audio without interaction, that is called one-way, when interaction is introduced it's called two-way transmission, and latency kills the immersion in a two-way application. Because when you press a button it has to register your input, send it back to the machine, process it, and then send it (back to the gamepad) to the monitor and then display the changes. And most of those serious Halo X360 players with cheap HDTVs are practically playing a lottery, there's no seriousness in that, and for an experienced player, most of headshot misses are a technical error, not a lack of skill, it's the lag.

This is the flowchart of a one pass the signal has to do - think about it, nintendo has managed to do this in ~1 milisecond.

Path when you press something on GamePad Touchscreen:
----------------------------
Touchscreen pressed (resistive tech has better accuracy and response time than capacitive)
Registered by TOUCH-SCREEN CONTROLLER (fast interconnect)
Sent to CONTROLLER UI (fast interconnect)
Sent to CODEC LSI (fast interconnect)
Data gets Compressed (proprietary super efficient method)
Sent to GamePad WIRELESS MODULE (fast interconnect)
Wireless transmission to Console via custom 5GHz protocol based on IEEE802.11n
Data gets Decompressed by Console CODEC LSI
Sent to I/O Processor
Processed by CPU
Sent back to I/O PROCESSOR
Sent back to Console CODEC LSI for Compression
Sent back to TERMINAL COMMUNICATION MODULE for Wireless Transmission back to GamePad
Picked up by GamePad WIRELESS MODULE
Sent to CODEC LSI (fast interconnect)
Data gets Decompressed
Sent to LCD
LCD displays results (+ LCD pixel lag)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ofcourse nitnendo cannot control HDTV industry, therefore they employ a technique which artificially delays the GamePad's video output so it matches the HDTV output (lots of latency) it's at least for them to be both SYNCED, it's better this way than non-synced, otherwise it would be even more confusing. But you can bypass this by using a high-end 1200Hz low-lag PC Monitor.

You don't even see the latency in a one-way transmission, normally, but it is there, it can be several seconds or a whole mintue and it won't make a difference in a TV broadcast. But that's another thing, there are so many different latencies before you get the signal. When it comes to gaming, it's the input lag. And many people also have false views of what is input lag and what causes it, many throw a lot of different things into one bin.

There is normally very low latencies in general in electronics and cables as well as the net (fiber optic etc). But there is that one place where all the HDTV latency is made out of, it's the firmware implementation in HDTVs, there is no big problem, it's just lazyness and ignorance, software is inefficinetly developed, and critics are outspoken about this bane of HDTV industry, their firmware just screws everyone else.

The WiiU has less than 1ms of lag, this is better than most LCD monitors out there which have pixel response of 2-4ms, and HDTVs which have ridiclous amounts of 45-80ms, some of them above 100ms, you cannot play FPS games with lag like that.
Last edited by annihilate :: Jan 3, 13
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annihilate Jan 3, 13
quote ProudLoz
quote bbb7002004
I don't really understand why a cartridge would be necessary, if some additional program is needed to connect the 3DS to the Wii U why wouldn't you just downloaded it from the Wii U itself? Sounds like bunk to me.
I'm assuming that the way the Wii U transfers the video playback to the GamePad is similar to the tech used in Apple's AirPlay feature, then the reason for the cartridge would be because it's hardware based and not software based. Although it can be implemented by software to some degree, I have a feeling that the 3DS isn't powerful enough to handle it.

With a cartridge on the other hand, it could provide some hardware that would handle that task without the 3DS using most of it's CPU or GPU cycles. Also, I believe that since it's essentially streaming a video, it'll require additional memory to pull it off. Again, with the cartridge, this is fixed since the cartridge can easily provide that memory space without forcing the user to use some of his limited memory off their SD card.

This isn't a definite answer, it's just a guess based on Apple's airplay tech.
You're wrong and wright.

Apple Airplay has nothing to do with this, normal Wifi Tech is too laggy for this to work. Apple marketing just stamps a fancy name on everything. And most of the magic that makes it super-low-latency is in the proprietary transmission protocol as well as the decompression/compression process developed by Nintendo it self. Nobody shares that technology, and Broadcoms Miracast was not even developed fully when Broadcom started cooperating with Nintendo.

Yes it is hardware based because that's how it achieves it's performance, it's compressed/decompressed by CODEC LSI component before sent to the wireless module. WiiU's CPU is then free of this burden, and Nintendo as always has an AUDIO DSP which takes more burden off the CPU as they aren't good at processing audio, a dedicated audio chip is 10 times better.

The word "streaming" really doesn't fit with this because it's been used mainly in inefficient laggy web-based applications, and I can see you use it as exactly in this tone. No you will not need any ridicolous amount of RAM, or storage to save any "streaming" data. It only takes a buffer, gets instantly deleted. This is not youtube man.

It's not so much in the wireless transmission as it is more in the two-way decompression and compression of the signal, because of the bandwidth limits this has to be done, the bottleneck is not the processing, as they've done an engineering marvel in software performance, the problem why you can't have more than 2 Gamepads on one WiiU is totally not the GPU CPU processing as the noobs want you to think, it's wireless bandwidth, it's the bottleneck, and if they have more Gamepads, the frame rate needs to go down for all of them in order to show the video without pixel corruption. So 2 Gamepads will operate at 30FPS, half the bandwidth each, to work properly.
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bbb7002004 Jan 3, 13
Wow, its almost like I just like playing video games and don't care about what chips are in the box.

I didn't think about the gamepad using a a faster wifi, that actually does make some sense and adds some credence to the rumor. Still kinda doubt its true though, guess we'll see.
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annihilate Jan 3, 13
quote bbb7002004
I don't really understand why a cartridge would be necessary, if some additional program is needed to connect the 3DS to the Wii U why wouldn't you just downloaded it from the Wii U itself? Sounds like bunk to me.
Unfortunately you have zero idea about WiiU tech, you just haven't been following the happenings for the last 2 years. It's a lot, not worth going back and reading all those 6 or 7 400paged 50post per page speculation threads on neogaf. But if you want, you can still find everything if you search enough. I don't have a single link summary of all of them handy right now.
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annihilate Jan 3, 13
All processing is done on the WiiU Console. Gamepad has minimal "firmware" level of processing which is used for controlling inputs and electronics,decompressing and compressing video and input signal for wireless transmission as well as the simple kernel UI for Universal Remote feature which works when WiiU console is off.

The cartrige for 3DS is probably for the standalone wireless unit that is compatible with the brand new custom ~5.2GHz non-TCP-IP two-way super-low-latency based on 802.11n and on miracast protocol, RF technology co-developed by Nintendo and Broadcom. The 3DS does not include a geomagnetic sensor, in order to make it as similar to the GamePad as possible they may include this sensor in the cartrige as well.

The 3DS will not require any processing if the decompression/compression hardware and firmware will already be done in the cartridge at the hw level so i'll be as fast as on the WiiU, as far as I can see now the only limit is the LCD resolution
Last edited by annihilate :: Jan 3, 13
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ProudLoz Jan 3, 13
quote bbb7002004
There is no way the gamepad has more processing power than the 3DS. Not by a long shot. Maybe the connection they are using between the gamepad and the console works on a technology that the 3DS doesn't have the ability to connect to, I guess that would make some sense.
Yeah, looking at the iFixit teardown, it looks like the GamePad uses a special Wi-Fi chip as seen on Step 22, which the 3DS obviously doesn't have. This is also sorta confirmed because on the 3DS teardown as seen on Step 10, they mentioned the Wi-Fi chip the 3DS uses is only able to handle 802.11 b/g, while the GamePad uses a proprietary version of 802.11n. So that may be why we need that cartridge.

Also, according to that teardown, the GamePad has a chip with 256 MBs of RAM, and the 3DS only has half of that according to the Wikipedia.
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bbb7002004 Jan 3, 13
There is no way the gamepad has more processing power than the 3DS. Not by a long shot. Maybe the connection they are using between the gamepad and the console works on a technology that the 3DS doesn't have the ability to connect to, I guess that would make some sense.
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JammerJaw Jan 3, 13
Could've sworn that was how they were going to the next Smash Bros, but eh.
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ProudLoz Jan 3, 13
quote bbb7002004
But the Wii U console does all the video processing, the gamepad is just a receiver/transmitter. I don't see why you'd need much processing power on the 3DS side of things.
Even if the GPU or the CPU of the 3DS is strong enough to handle it, you still need to think about the memory that will be used up to show you this streaming video, and also the Wi-Fi chip, we're not sure if the 3DS's Wi-Fi chip is also strong enough to handle that amount of streaming.
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SpOOK Jan 3, 13
quote bbb7002004
I don't really understand why a cartridge would be necessary, if some additional program is needed to connect the 3DS to the Wii U why wouldn't you just downloaded it from the Wii U itself? Sounds like bunk to me.
It could have to do with the 3DS jamming everything into one gpu, like in the case of SSB4 for instance, cross platform between a relatively weak device and a powerful one (by comparison) could very well require some sort of medium, to help preserve the console quality experience.
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Thrawn Jan 3, 13
quote bbb7002004
But the Wii U console does all the video processing, the gamepad is just a receiver/transmitter. I don't see why you'd need much processing power on the 3DS side of things.
Tbh it could kind of blow ether way because the screen(s) on the 3DS aren't anywhere near as good of quality as the gamepad's. Unless the screens on XL's are better.
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bbb7002004 Jan 3, 13
But the Wii U console does all the video processing, the gamepad is just a receiver/transmitter. I don't see why you'd need much processing power on the 3DS side of things.
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