Neoseeker : News : Silicon Knights' Dennis Dyack says used games are cannibalising the industry
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Lorx Mar 28, 12
He makes a good, solid point. Except that it would kill the industry as a whole. Could kill the console industry maybe, but PC doesn't actually have a used games market. Thus, trail sales. This was a point brought up with the Dark Souls PC petition actually.
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LSG Mar 28, 12
Lorx - Exactly. No used game market + my fav developers + better game distrabution + better sales + better indie support make steam and my PC gaming way better then any console. I stopped buying consoles after getting a PS2 and Gamecube (I had a Wii for but sold it)
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rpg Mar 28, 12
10-20 years after release?
I doubt I could find new stock at that point some games aren't just stocked so often unless you have it all for virtual download :/
Which my new found fear of any game owned virtually for consoles increases 0.0
I kind of came across the thought of what if they don't make the next gen consoles compatible with classics like PSO and PS2 games >.> I know one day for consoles this may happen but never really put the thought to mind until getting the PSV
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Funzo Mar 28, 12
A basically flawed argument. If used game sales slowed new games sales then there'd be no used games to sell, so there'd be no problem.

Did used game sales stop the latest COD from selling bucket loads? nope.

'...library of games still providing funds 10-20 years after release'
Seriously? who buys games that are more than five years old in large enough numbers to provide a company with a significant income?

Maybe this guys problem is really that a 33 YO gamer like me has never heard of Silicon Knights or Too Human before and he's bitter that his little company isn't that great.
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Lorx Mar 28, 12
quote Funzo
Did used game sales stop the latest COD from selling bucket loads? nope.

'...library of games still providing funds 10-20 years after release'
Seriously? who buys games that are more than five years old in large enough numbers to provide a company with a significant income?
GoG. Yes, people still buy old games, people still play old games. Just because something is old, does not mean it can't be fun.
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Some examples off games I still have installed on my machine:
  • Valve's still making money off TF2, Half Life (all of them) and CS (all of them).
  • Whoever made killing floor is still making money off that.
  • Arenanet is still making money off Guild Wars, same with Everquest and whoever made that.
  • SEGA is still making money off old SEGA Genesis Sonic games, they got re-released on PC years ago, and still sell copies.
  • NADEO still makes money off Trackmania United, even though they released a sequel last year.
  • Doublefine still makes money off Psychonauts
  • Oh, and Activision is still making money off old CoD games. So your example is countering itself really. Record sales every time, still has sales of older versions.
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Sure the amount of monthly sales on these games may not be astronomical by this point, but they do have, and I quote "a 'tail' of profit".
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RaidenXS Mar 28, 12
They could just make better games. Games worth the 60$. Games that aren't worth selling.
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Lorx Mar 28, 12
quote RaidenXS
They could just make better games. Games worth the 60$. Games that aren't worth selling.
People sell back those games all the time. They beat it as fast as they can so they get maximum trade in bucks, then move on to something else.
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rpg Mar 28, 12
If a game is good, I don't sell it back, also some people don't have enough time to speed play and get the most out of a game, which in my opinion it contradicts itself. :/
I only sell a game as fast as I can to get max money or trade in back is if the game is bad or I'm not into it. :/
So in my situation raiden would be right :/
Better games lessens the likelyness of me selling it which makes less used games for someone else to pick from.
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Crafter Mar 29, 12
What these idiots don't seem to understand is that the more sales you "lose" from used sales, the more new sales are required to have happened. They also seem to think they're special and are the only people "losing" money to used sales. What about "Used car sales are killing the industry!", or something that actually affects me a little bit: Why don't I get money when someone resells the house I built?

quote Lorx
People sell back those games all the time. They beat it as fast as they can so they get maximum trade in bucks, then move on to something else.
Take a look at games like Radiant Historia or the Metroid Prime Triolgy (the latter maybe not so much because of seriously limited production), these are games that are very difficult to find at a used game store because the people that bought them loved them and are hanging onto them tight.

And what if I want to play an older game? As it is now, it's hard enough to find used copies of games. And as we've seen with Sony, who can't be arsed to port PSP discs to digital downloads for Vita users that already bought them, do you seriously expect it to get any easier?

Coming from the guy that made Too Human though, I can't respect his opinion. It sounds like he's blaming his recent hardships on the used games industry instead of owning up to them and moving on.
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Lorx Mar 29, 12
There's a difference between buying incredibly old relics you can't find anywhere else, like NES games, and the majority of the used games market right now. Getting your hands on an old game using whatever means you have at your disposal, since it's not available new anywhere, is pretty much a no-brainer.

The...important parts of the industry see absolutely no return from used game sales. Does not help them at all. If somebody bought a used copy of CoD this week, Activision see nothing for it. And that's kind of exactly what the problem is. Relative to the developer/publisher, any used game that's bought, might as well just be a pirated copy as neither "purchase" benefits them at all.

quote Avellone
Of course, one of the greatest things about digital distribution is what it does to reduce the used game market. I hope digital distribution stabs the used game market in the heart.
Link, Avellone is Obsidian's chief RPG designer. So if you don't believe Silicon Knights', you have Obsidian to now consider instead. Also keep in mind that EA/Bioware put DLC into Mass Effect 3 (and 2) specifically to make buying the game used not as effective as it normally would be. Online pass for ME3, Cerberus Network pass for ME2. These are not things that were put in place to combat piracy, these were direct shots at used games. Something put in place to try and make some kind of return off a sale they see no other profit from.

To summarize, the used game sections at major retailers aren't geared towards those "old relics you just can't find anymore", they're geared towards profit. When a copy of ME3 or CoD is sold new, they make a commission, and the rest goes to the publisher. When they sell used, 100% of the profit. So to that end, they try and stock as much as they can in used games, for things that are still "new and hot".
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rpg Mar 29, 12
pretty sure radiant historia isn't so old >.> came out I think early-mid 2011, so if being a year old is an old relic then wth lol. (i'll recheck but I'm sure it's right)
I can never find it but I'm not sure if it's just because nobody is selling it (way more likely lol) or it didn't produced enough stock to keep used flowing
This seems more like a battle now of buying virtually compared to physical >.>
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Crafter Mar 29, 12
quote Lorx
... Does not help them at all.
That is absolutely incorrect. Many people cannot afford to buy new games all the time or risk so much more on a new (/to them) developer with today's wonderful quality control. For a lot of people used games are a demo of sorts. If they like what they get, they'll be a lot more willing to pay full price- or even buy at all- the next game. Not to mention a lot of people need the money/credit from a trade in to buy their next game, whether it's new or not.

quote Lorx
To summarize, the used game sections at major retailers aren't geared towards those "old relics you just can't find anymore", they're geared towards profit.
Game developers and publishers then, are also geared only towards profit. It happens to be a secondary effect that the products they make could be enjoyable, only because that will tend to increase sales; Just as the used retailers might stock somewhat older games because people looking for those games may not have anywhere else to purchase them.

Even looking at it as strictly business, it doesn't change what used retailers offer. I wasn't talking about "old relics" like Final Fantasy VI for the SNES either. I had a lot of trouble tracking down Final Fantasy XIII before the launch of XIII-2. I'd have been happy to buy it new were it even a slight possibility, but my local EB was happy to give me a phone call when they got a used copy in.
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rpg Mar 29, 12
^^ EB gave you a call when it had it in stock?
Never knew they would do that or even heard of it :0 sounds epic but I wonder if gamestop does it too
I still go hunting for ps2 games which are pretty much in relic area but yeah :3
Unless it's only new gen games they do that for.
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Lorx Mar 29, 12
EB, Software Etc, Funcoland, and Game Stop are all the same company rpg.

quote Crafter
That is absolutely incorrect. Many people cannot afford to buy new games all the time or risk so much more on a new (/to them) developer with today's wonderful quality control. For a lot of people used games are a demo of sorts. If they like what they get, they'll be a lot more willing to pay full price- or even buy at all- the next game. Not to mention a lot of people need the money/credit from a trade in to buy their next game, whether it's new or not.
Why not...use the demo? If the game doesn't have a demo and you don't want to risk it, that's the developer's fault, and sending them an email saying "hey, would have considered it but...no demo, so i don't want to risk buying it" is a rather viable option. Good Publishers and developers listen to their customers, and bad ones still tend to listen when it affects their bottom line directly. Enough people give them emails of "y no demo?", and they'll think twice about passing it up the next time around.

quote Crafter
Game developers and publishers then, are also geared only towards profit.
Even looking at it as strictly business, it doesn't change what used retailers offer. I wasn't talking about "old relics" like Final Fantasy VI for the SNES either. I had a lot of trouble tracking down Final Fantasy XIII before the launch of XIII-2. I'd have been happy to buy it new were it even a slight possibility, but my local EB was happy to give me a phone call when they got a used copy in.
(Non-nonprofit businesses are mainly geared towards profit)
They want to please customers, and good ones like making good stuff, but as a business, they want to make money.

For "It's not ancient, it's still within this generation of consoles", look towards the next generation of stuff and what it's doing, or look towards the current generation and what it did differently from the previous group. Especially Sony and the PS4 rumors, and Vita/PSPgo. "I want game X" will probably look much look like Steam on next gen consoles. After all, why not? The systems will certainly be able to handle it.

And in closing, you seem to be thinking I'm trying to make a statement...that I'm not making. All I'm saying is;
"Used game market does not help developers, can hit non-AAA game sales pretty hard. On the flip side, it'll probably be phased out in a generation or two. Some Devs are already actively trying to shake it off."
rather than;
"USED GAME SALES ARE SATAN AND SO ARE GAME STORES"
I may not ever shop there, but I'm a PC dude, so I pretty much can't to begin with. Gamestop offers some pretty good services, preorders with $5 down, call when a game you want comes in, demos hanging around the store, etc.
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