Marshal Loss
Aug 18, 09 9:44pm
is better than you at minigolf
Marshal Loss blogged
Apr 10, 09 5:43pm

Rome: His points really do belong in the past.

First of all I was writing a reply to Rome but got delayed and actually wanted to give it some thought; my reply to his on my profile was rushed and shouldn't be taken seriously, that's not the real me, and the original message on my profile was rushed and does not show my true opinion, although I will put it simply; America worries me. As a sign of respect, small admittedly as it may be, here is the link to his blog. I also posted my writing in blue (like his) to more easily distinguish it from the quotes.

Secondly, I will start off with a basic introduction.

I wrote my bio/profile quite a while ago and it is written in a completely hyped up sense, it is not/was not to be taken literally. However, of course, somebody has gone along and done just that. I recognise the fact that is is offensive; if it was done about Australia or another country I had any particular knowledge on I would respond in suite too. Therefore, I will post my reply to Rome's letter, reiterate my beliefs do you really know what I believe and then if Rome wants to continue his egotistical rampage he's welcome too; but I shall play no part in it.

Anyway this is from the beginning of "Rome"'s blog.

quote Rome
A couple weeks ago, I came upon the profile of Marshal Loss. I read it, and I was dismayed to see that he had some mightier-than-thou remarks about my country, America. In fact, that tone seems to embody his whole profile. This is everything he says about America, as quoted from his profile:

quote Myself
About America.

Listen, America is easily the most powerful and influential country in the world, yet

1. There are alot of religious fanatics ruling it
2. Everone carries a gun
3. Generally the people who carry a gun are religious as well, thus making them 2x dangerous
4. The government is stupid
5. People are just so ignorant!

Sorry, but your great "country" does not give me any confidence in its ability to manage itself and the power that it holds. Once again however, this does not mean I hate ordinary americans, most of my online friends are americans lol. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if you don't like mine then too bad.
Now I here is the updated version - taking it out completely would be a blatantly cowardly retreat and I owe people the chance to re-read it - offensive it may still be but at least it is not hyped up near as much.

quote Myself
About America.


About America.

Listen, America is easily the most powerful and influential country in the world, yet...

1. The Government is filled with highly religious people, which would interfere with intelligent politics to say the least - though Obama is a nice, fresh blast of air, I still am worried about the effect it has on their country. Athiests cannot get elected there and if that is not religion interfering with politics, what is?
2. The huge amount of guns in the country - look at all the massacres, it's ridiculous that the government allows it to go on when it could be stamped out. Yes, people use it for things like hunting (as Rome impressed on me) but what apart the gun related violence that occurs there in comparison to other western countries? It is well in excess.
3. Though rather ironic as most people will think coming from me, the general impression I get from a relatively high proportion of Americans on the Internet is not exactly a favourable one.

The original version was written before the Obama Administration and let me say that I have hope for the future of your country and I shall be watching his exploits with great interest; the government jab is now out of date. However the origin of the first one was just hyped up, anybody who took it seriously is frankly stupid, or at the very least over zealous.

That is the updated version; I have no intention of taking it down and I feel that although from jabs at Rome which I do not think are entirely unwarranted, it is not hyped up enough to be taken seriously...again.

As you will no doubt have seen if you are reading this in the first place, he posted a blog in response to mine (which needless to say some parts I found stupid, some offensive; I can from this piece together a logical conclusion of how he took it in the first place). I shall first post my response to his message and then my response to the other pieces of "information/beliefs" (depending on your point of view). I am confident that if he is near intelligent as he makes himself out to be he will understand, though the jabs in there are not meant to be nice. And here is my letter.

quote Rome
There you go.

quote Marshal Loss
quote Rome
I happened to come upon your bio, and I found some of its contents a little disturbing. For specificity, the contents are enumerated in the exact verbatim below.
Interesting, I was wondering when an American who's only verbal barb was a tirade of swear words would see it, though you seem to do the same thing only in a different way. I'm also amused by the fact that you came across it in the first place (not intended to be a barb) - did someone come crying to you about it? :P

As for not replying, I had intended to give this a bit of thought and I had been busy lately but obviously the posting of your brilliant blog has rushed me into it, and I will be posting a blog in response, hopefully better written than this message soon. I will include a link to your blog in it and I expect you to do the same with mine; I will not have your popularity and status on these forums interfere with an argument like this, and I am sure if it ends up going to a popularity contest most people will side with you on the grounds that you are who you are.

quote Me
(My Profile)

First of all, given that you are Australian, I do not know how you can begin to understand how America really is. You make a lot of negative and presumptuous assertions about my country that I find insulting.
I do not make assertions without evidence, and have gathered plenty from friends, family, the Internet, the media (though scarcely obviously, I know nothing of American media other than the comedy that is Fox News but I can state that the Australian media is incredibly biased). Fair enough that you take it in that fashion but then again it is my opinion, and whilst I may admit that it was written in a haphazard fashion it is still at the very least mostly true.

quote Rome
Plenty of us know that Australia started out as holding ground for Great Britain's prisoners, and I would not say a pure, enduring legacy of triumphant character values emerged from that and shines in your nation today. Now I am not saying that Australia is, by any means, a deplorable country. I have a mildly positive view of it, but I cannot say too much about it, because I do not really know a great deal about it. The problem is that you did just the opposite of this with my country, saying that it is ruled by religious fanatics, that everyone carries a gun, our government is stupid, and that everyone is "just so ignorant".
I have an open mind, so trying to use the moral high ground really does not affect me.

Your country is based on religion and that is a dangerous thing. Can you honestly not say that it has affected your country in a bad fashion, to say the least? Look at your country's reputation in the world. It is NOT a good one, and as a non American I can certainly speak for a huge amount of people with that. Put it this way; your 'great country' is less popular than it is popular.

I wrote that profile before Obama got in; I have great hope in the American government now and for the first time ever my opinion of the American government has changed, and I am impressed by the progress he is making on the world stage. On the whole everything you are writing based on that viewpoint of your government in the present tense is wrong; my comments there belong to the Bush era, and towards his government they still stand.

quote Rome
I'll start on religion. It is true that many people in America have strong, religious beliefs. Most people are Christians, of some denomination or another. Some of our religious citizens have extreme views, and yes, some even have power, but they do not rule this country.
Really? An American president CANNOT be elected, or at the very least, WILL NOT be elected if he does not say he's a christian. How is that, in effect, not ruling your country? Every politician in America is a christian, some more devout than others admittedly, but my point still rests.

quote Rome
Take a look at what our government is, a representative democracy. How can religious fanatics occupy a significant amount of offices and positions of power in this country, when they do not even constitute a majority? While religious Americans have influence over our popular sovereignty, the majority of them support secular government, and the vast majority of Americans in general support it. Our government has determined that all citizens are equal, regardless of race, sex, or personal beliefs, such as religion.
Aha? Saying a you are an Athiest is political suicide in the United States (Richard Dawkins). It's one thing to say that your Government has said that but let's face it saying something is not the same as following something through, is it now?

quote Rome
We do not have a religious state, and we do not make or enforce laws to satisfy religious doctrines. You say that religious fanatics rule this country, but you have no facts to support your claims.
Though my wording is admittedly strong, you cannot deny that American politics has its base in religion. Think of one presidential candidate (for example) that has not been a Christian. Think of one presidential candidate who has not signed off at a speech in the US with a "and god bless you all". Whilst I may be wrong in using such strong language you are surely wrong in saying/implying that Religion is not involved with politics.

quote Rome
Not everyone carries a gun in America.
Yes, I did find that incredibly obviously thank you, but if you didn't realise already my language is hyped up in my profile but in a fashion point still stands - Americas gun policies are stupid and dangerous.

quote Rome
Yes, it is true that we reserve the right "to bear arms". Many Americans possess personal firearms, and most of them truly believe that gun ownership is a sacred right. However, it is not true that we all walk around with guns ready to kill people, the insinuation that you seem to be making.
I was not making that insinuation, I was merely pointing out that in the very least it is dangerous - look at the multiple massacres in the last few weeks alone. Blame it on the financial crisis but it's happening all over the world and I don't see innocent people dying for one mad men's beliefs that he needs to go out with a bang, made infinitely easier by the fact that he can walk into a store, buy a gun and then proceed to kill people.

quote Rome
I never held a real gun until just last fall, when my grandfather died and I got an old shotgun that he had. Here's the clincher: I have no bullets for it. I also couldn't carry that thing around where I wanted. The only use of guns that I have really witnessed ever in my life is hunting. I live in the countryside of North Carolina, where there are still many trees and wildlife. A lot of folks like to go hunt deer and other forest animals. Most of these people like to cook up their quarry and eat them. I don't see anything remotely malignant or backward about shooting your supper or killing a few deer so they aren't getting hit my cars on our roads.
Neither do I.

quote Rome
Let me tell you that car collisions with deer can be deadly for the driver and the passengers, and the deer ends up dead either way.
I am familiar with the concept, it is the same thing with kangaroos in Australia.

quote Rome
As far as handguns are concerned, I will concede that these require more regulation and that they contribute to most of the gun-related murders, but most people who own these are responsible enough not to let that happen. Do you really mean to tell me that Australia is without murder? Because it sure seems like you are suggesting that.
In no way was I/am I suggesting that, you are merely twisting my words to find more backup for your viewpoints.

quote Rome
Our system of government is not stupid. Like any democratic structure, it does get burdened by the political mudslinging. I doubt Australia is without it. Wherever you go in the world, people are competing for power.
I would have thought that obvious; it's hardly needed to be stated. Obviously Australia has its problems too - if you didn't notice, I never once said it didn't.

quote Rome
In Africa, they do it with genocide. In Afghanistan, they do it by blowing up schools and enslaving women. In China, they do it by stealing the rights of their citizens and holding political prisoners. Be glad that America, like Australia, does it behind a desk or through vigorous campaigns in the media.
Don't try to play the "be grateful for what you have" card, that's flawed completely and while yes, I am grateful that I was not born in such a disadvantaged state that does not change flaws in our own systems.

quote Rome
On another note, our system of government has endured for more than 230 years, and as time has gone by, it has only served to improve our society. We started out as a young nation where only white men with property held power. Since then, we have passed laws and reset the status quo so that all persons born and naturalized in this country enjoy citizenship, full rights, and equal protection under the law. You say our government is stupid, but it has only made the lives of the American people even grander.
That is all very well for you and the new Government changes a lot of things for my point of view alone, however my comments were directed at the stupid things that the Bush Government had committed, realistically, the crimes that had been done. It is your opinion that they have made life for you better; I cannot comment on that, as obviously I am not an American.

We have made mistakes in our history, but that makes America no less than any country. If I recall, Australia was not always kind to the Aborginals. It has surely made shameful mistakes in governmental policy.

Yes we have - we, however, recognised it officially with an official apology. There is always work to be done but our progress on the issue in the last few years (for 12 odd years we were under a liberal government that refused to acknowledge that any wrongs had been committed at all, citing that they were not responsible as they were not there at the time).

quote Rome
Lastly, I want to address your claim that Americans are ignorant.
I refer in general to Americans on the Internet, so I probably deserve some of what follows due to the misconception but nevertheless I stand by my judgement that at the very least, a decent portion of the Americans on the Internet (at least a 50/50 ratio) do your country's image no good.

quote Rome
Yes, people are ignorant. Much of this has been tied to poverty and old traditions. As I mentioned, we have been rising from those conditions and circumstances, and we have exponentially improved in our education and open-mindedness since the birth of our nation. You can never eliminate it completely, though. Ignorance is a part of human nature and will always exist in society. The best proof of that is the multilateral adherence to the supposition, as proven by your statements. Every single one of your statements was based purely on hyperbolic ignorance.
Here's where you're wrong, and it is half my fault. When I wrote that profile it was not clarified, was rushed, over the top and excessive to say the least. However ignorant I may be you have successfully matched it yourself, not least by the comments made in your blog.

I will sum it up later but I am sorry for the comments in my blog... however I am not an ignorant person, nor one so proud as to not be able to admit their faults, as you seem to mistakenly believe. The way my blog was written was not a true representation of my views and I was wrong to leave it there for so long - to be truthful I had forgotten it was there. :P

quote Rome
You see, the quality of being ignorant, uneducated, or naturally absentminded exists in both my country and yours, as you have proven.
And you have confirmed.

quote Rome
No one will ever be perfectly enlightened about the issues and cultures of all the people in the world. Ignorance can never be fully conquered, and the lesson we take, and that you should take,
Quite a defeatist attitude there, unusual considering the nature of your message.

If you expect me to take your message, you should, too.

quote Rome
is that to condescend on people for their ignorance is, for all intents and purposes, hypocritical and a shameful representation of your native Australia.
I never claimed to represent the viewpoint of my country, indeed, I never claimed, at least in my original blog, to represent anyone's viewpoint other than my own. However glorious you deem your country's reputation to be, it is not viewed like so by the rest of the world.

quote Rome
Now I took the time to write all of this, because I feel that the same problems about which your are complaining are essentially reflective of your own nation,
And thus the world...

quote Rome
and as a proud, patriotic American,]
Laughed here, sorry

quote Rome
yet a deeply committed citizen of the world, I think it is important to address this apparent ignorance on any front.
I like the way you wrote this; apparent was, or at least should be, the key word. I put trust in your intellect that you will reaffirm your view point once you have read this.

quote Rome
When Americans act in ways that you described, it is embarrassing, but when you and other people abroad do the same to me and my country, it is offensive. Frankly, I do not know which I find preferable. Both are bad, and both are disgraceful.
Well then I must also say I do wonder whether the embarrassment of your country is equal to the offence thrown against it. It is worth a thought, surely.

quote Rome
The goal of international discourse should not be to call each other out on vices that we all ultimately share, but to emphasize the needs of cooperation and respect, for the sake of global, commutative improvement. I hope that you can take a lesson from what I have written.

Whilst very well written there are some major flaws, "Rome", and whilst my original paragraph on my profile was wrong I admit that freely and you are effectively arguing against a point of view that I never really had.

Against my real point of view though your argument holds little weight, though some sections are effective I do not find myself swayed. I assume this discussion will continue, as demonstrated by your rather overzealous approach with your blog, I think you are lacking something in your life personally and are trying to make up for it online.

quote Rome
I hope that you will open your mind to a country that, despite its faults, does remarkably well for itself. I hope that you will analyze and look back on what you have written and realize that such impulsive and arbitrary accusation only subjects you to the same level of ridicule and humiliation.
You really are taking this too seriously, you do know that? I don't care what some weirdo who "will never be loved in life" and who basically declares themself a social outcast on their profile thinks of me, and trying to "ridicule me", will, in the end, only make yourself look stupid. Being an overzealous crusader of American rights on the internet does not make up for what you are not in real life. Whilst I do understand your irritation at my original comment I fervently hope that you are actually intelligent enough to read over this and truly understand my point of view. You won't like it, but maybe then will you understand.

I will post the blog sometime tomorrow my time.
Whilst admittedly there are some cheap digs throughout the letter, I think I convey the point well enough. However halfway through writing this I have, once again, changed my mind; rather than reply to all the points on his blog, which are realistically void considering my real point of view, I shall simply iterate my opinion on America.


I think, or believe, that America is dangerous.

America is a huge country, with a significant proportion of the worlds population, wealth, and above all armament. It was founded on religious virtues and is now probably the most powerful single nation on earth. My belief is not so much that America abuses its power (at least since George left office), but the fact that America is simply a lurking threat to the rest of the world.

Rome denied that religion has any bearing on American politics but that is completely wrong - Athiests, for example, cannot be elected. In the words of Richard Dawkins, "declaring yourself an Athiest is political suicide in the united states". There tend to be very few free minds on topics such as Abortion and Scientific research and although, once again, Obama is opening the way I can't help but worry that it will turn in on itself because the people who he has to please; the American public.

Religion does not mix well with politics.

On another note, guns. America has such a high proportion of gun related incidents compared to the rest of the western world that I fail to see why they keep the favourable laws in place, let alone have them there in the first place. Not only does it encourage the "Redneck" impression of America but it is dangerous. Innocent people die because of "the right to bear arms", and I cannot see for the life of me how all those deaths can be justified.

I was actually going to make a comment on the average IQ of Americas as I saw statistics that were amusing to say the least, but I feel that for my third point I am actually going to say something positive!

America has good points too, as with everything. They have pioneered many scientific patents, though they lag behind on science that has ethics embroiled in it. Americans tend to, politically at least, help people out - for every 2, idiotic Americans that flame me in games or on forums I tend to find a nice one, and every now and again someone who I can truly call a friend. I have American friends and I would not exchange them for a personal vendetta so that is the reason why I am posting this in the first place. America is not by nature a bad place though it does have some serious problems that, if not solved, can, and will cause serious grief to the rest of the world.

That is my opinion. If it offends you, to be honest I am not really sorry as I believe that everyone is allowed their point of view, and I would not interefere with you if you had a post saying that Australians were all idiots who drank beer and played cricket all day. I have not tried to defend my original bio so I hope that the apology is rammed home. If Rome wants to continue his egotistical forum crusade that's fine with me; but I shall play no part in it, whether or not I am being made out to be shown as the "Devil" in all this.

I believe what Rome did was ignorant and wrong and whilst it was well written it was entirely wrong, and he should have approached me about removing it or at least asked why I believed that rather than going "well because I do nothing in real life (I am playing on his profile here), I am going to be the humanist and save my countrys reputation on the internet". I can only think that he must feel insecure about his countrys reputation if this is so.


It's easy to miss things in all that or to pick up the wrong thing, so I will sign off by saying sorry to all Americans who were offended by my original post, and sorry to all people that supported Rome, and I hope he has the grace and intelligence to recognize this. I do take blame for my original bio; it was wrong and I recognise that. It does not, however, justify Rome's grossly exagerrated response.

Thank you.

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