Neoseeker.com Forum Thread: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think? - page 1

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original thread: http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/62/t1775793-windows-8-might-not-as-bad-as-you-think/


Author:   Redemption
Date:   Oct 14, 12 at 12:47pm (PST)
Subject:   Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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The past few days I've been researching more about Windows 8, and more and more I am convinced that it isn't as bad as people might think. I've compiled a list of items that I personally think are major Pros of the new OS.

Pros for Desktop and Hardcore users

These are improvements that have nothing to do whatsoever with Metro/Modern UI, and are instead core OS improvements. Keep in mind this is based on results of the RTM/Final, not on Consumer Preview or Developer Preview which were unpolished and might have had bugs/useability. General Pros

Some Pros that might rely on the new Metro UI
Cons: Start button?

Let's examine whether the missing Start button is really as bad as it sounds. After reflecting on it more, and studying my own usage and the usage of those around me, I have come to the conclusion the Start button is antiquated and probably useless to a true power user who takes advantage of the power of Windows 7. The only reason I open the Start button today is to perform a search, go to Control Panel, or to start CMD. I rarely every go into All Programs and when I do its a nightmarein there. I rarely even go into Control panel ever since Windows 7 since I can always find what I want by searching. Eg, if you want to open up printers I type "printers" and press enter. I don't open up Control Panel and look for the printer icon. The only other time I use the Start Button is if I can't remember the name of an app, but I can remember where I put it (my utils folder for instance). Here I think the missing start button will be more painful.

Why is the missing Start button not a big deal in Windows 8? The way to get to search, control panel, and other commonly used items are now accessible using alternate means. Almost any app I use regularly are on my Desktop or pinned on my taskbar. I think Microsoft is onto something here by trying to move the world off of the Start Button and onto more semantic gestures and interactions. This will drive the future of interactive UI, and make possible things like touch screen laptops (which Steve Jobs thinks are a stupid idea, but which I really look forward to), and even more futuristic things.

Conclusion?

Well anyway, I haven't used Windows 8 final, and I'm sure what I research is different than what a person can experience. I know many of you guys aren't interested in Windows 8, but I'm seriously considering getting the upgrade whilethe upgrade price is valid. The upgrade price is valid until Jan 2013 and is $40 for the download if you already own XP, Vista, or 7. I think in this area MS has really listened to customers. This is one of the most economical OS upgrades period.



Author:   harbin
Date:   Oct 14, 12 at 1:41pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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I won't be upgrading unless the start button has been retained in the final release, and the Metro UI (apparently it can't be called Metro now due to copyright issues) can be removed by the add/remove features option.

Some of the features are good, but the Metro thing is a big turn off for me on desktops. There was no reason for it to be instantly forced.

To an average user, speed improvements won't be enough to persuade those to upgrade, alot of them upgrades surely could be done to Windows 7 through a Service Park. There are some other decent upgrades but not enough for me to upgrade.

If I had a touchscreen then yes I'd probably upgrade. I still want to see how Microsoft would pull of multitasking gaming. I still use only the one monitor, the main game I play is FM. Alongside FM, I have Firefox open and a media player. This are easily switchable either through alt+tab, I either have two open side by side, or the superbar is used. I rarely use the desktop, the only things I have on my desktop are usually files I've just saved there and haven't bothered to move.

For printers, I don't even type printers in the search bar, I just open the start menu and it's on the side below 'Control Panel' and above 'Default Programs'

I've not got anything against Windows 8, for me though, there is just nothing for it.

If they were adamant on getting rid of the start menu though, then the searchbar would've just been enough, something similar to Spotlight on a Mac, but there ain't even that. It is like they are forcing Metro upon you. There are a few things that my searchbar in the start menu doesn't find though, PES being one of them. It also cannot find my folders, that might be how it is set up but it cannot find folders. The other issue is that Windows Search is slow at finding stuff anyway. Spotlight is near instant results.

Explorer view without Aero looks awful. I hope they've kept the ability to change the window colour because the red close button clashes badly with the blue window. One of the things I do like thoug, is they've expanded the use of the Ribbon bar, I find things easier with that. I do think they are too quick to drop the classic explorer view though. I know that is still kept, but the taskbar and the explorer could've been adapted with the Metro UI, perhaps used Metro as a new interactive desktop.

As for startup, this might be due to the fact that I'm using a SSD but my Windows 7 boots in less than 10 seconds anyway. It was fairly quick on my old PC.



Author:   Redemption
Date:   Oct 14, 12 at 4:10pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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quote harbin91
If they were adamant on getting rid of the start menu though, then the searchbar would've just been enough, something similar to Spotlight on a Mac...
I believe Modern UI interface doesn't have a searchbar because the second you start to type it initiates a search. It's 2 less clicks (or 1 less keyboard press) than the current Windows 7 UI and a pretty smart way to do it IMO. Most people who give Window 8 a chance and actually unlearn old (sometimes inefficient) habits seem to find W8 as useful if not more so. I'm sure there will be various tasks that are more cumbersome and others which are easier than W7. The best part about W8 in my opinion is that they are trying to make UI semantic and context aware. W8 might not be perfect in those departments, but moving in that direction signals to me that W9, W10, etc will each improve on this critical useability concept.

quote harbin91
There are a few things that my searchbar in the start menu doesn't find though, PES being one of them. It also cannot find my folders, that might be how it is set up but it cannot find folders. The other issue is that Windows Search is slow at finding stuff anyway. Spotlight is near instant results.
My Windows 7 searchbar also doesn't find everything, but the results are near instant for me, easily as fast as Spotlight, and as good or sometimes superior to Spotlight for synonym matching (try searching for "uninstall app" vs "remove app" vs "delete app" in Windows 7 and all 3 will yield a result to help uninstall apps). This only applies to apps though, and in W8 they apparently removed file searching from the searchbar. Personally I never use filesearching from there so it won't affect me. I do all my file searching from my Libraries in Explorer.

quote harbin91
As for startup, this might be due to the fact that I'm using a SSD but my Windows 7 boots in less than 10 seconds anyway. It was fairly quick on my old PC.
It's true that the startup times are 50% faster only for spinning disks. On SSD Windows 8 vs Windows 7 might be a smaller (but still noticeable) difference. Note that most older and non-ultrabook laptops out there are spinning disks, so all of those will benefit from these improvements.

Regardless of whether anyone is upgrading, I wonder how many laptops will still be sold in 2013 with Windows 7. If you remember when Vista came out everyone was saying they would never upgrade, yet the entire market slowly ended up being all Vista due to new PC sales. The same will happen with Windows 8.

I think at the end of the day we're a bit too obsessed with Modern UI and not looking at the fact that W8 is a leap ahead of W7 in terms of core OS work. That, or people choose to dismiss that work because of their hatred of Modern UI. It's too bad MS took this added risk with the forced Modern UI, because without it I think W8 would be a really successful launch. Personally I think Modern UI looks great, but I think the Start screen is kind of ugly, compared to a Desktop.



Author:   hiigaran
Date:   Oct 14, 12 at 11:50pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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i dont think we are denying that there are improvements to windows 8. i think the problem is that there just doesnt feel like enough new stuff to warrant going for it. okay, performance in a few areas has improved, but does this translate to better gaming or digital media performance?

personally, id only enjoy the monitor and performance benefits...hardly worth upgrading over for me, especially when the hardware i have (had) used is powerful enough to make performance requirements a non-issue. and third party software fixes the multi monitor issue quite easily.



Author:   harbin
Date:   Oct 15, 12 at 6:14am (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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quote Redemption
quote harbin91
If they were adamant on getting rid of the start menu though, then the searchbar would've just been enough, something similar to Spotlight on a Mac...
I believe Modern UI interface doesn't have a searchbar because the second you start to type it initiates a search. It's 2 less clicks (or 1 less keyboard press) than the current Windows 7 UI and a pretty smart way to do it IMO. Most people who give Window 8 a chance and actually unlearn old (sometimes inefficient) habits seem to find W8 as useful if not more so. I'm sure there will be various tasks that are more cumbersome and others which are easier than W7. The best part about W8 in my opinion is that they are trying to make UI semantic and context aware. W8 might not be perfect in those departments, but moving in that direction signals to me that W9, W10, etc will each improve on this critical useability concept.

Kinda what I meant. Use the searchbar in the Windows 7 startmenu and turn that into the main method of doing stuff. It may be more efficient, but it's too big a change. Some people can pick it up instantly, but for those that can't, from a business point of view, training will be needed for everyone whereas the jump from Windows XP to Windows 7 was straightforward, everyone knows where everything is.

quote Redemption
quote harbin91
There are a few things that my searchbar in the start menu doesn't find though, PES being one of them. It also cannot find my folders, that might be how it is set up but it cannot find folders. The other issue is that Windows Search is slow at finding stuff anyway. Spotlight is near instant results.
My Windows 7 searchbar also doesn't find everything, but the results are near instant for me, easily as fast as Spotlight, and as good or sometimes superior to Spotlight for synonym matching (try searching for "uninstall app" vs "remove app" vs "delete app" in Windows 7 and all 3 will yield a result to help uninstall apps). This only applies to apps though, and in W8 they apparently removed file searching from the searchbar. Personally I never use filesearching from there so it won't affect me. I do all my file searching from my Libraries in Explorer.
Well the search in Windows 7 is quicker than the search in previous versions, but Spotlight can find words in a document and match it with what your finding pretty quickly. This feature can be turned on in Windows search, but it takes a bit longer. Whilst I haven't used a Mac in a home environment in the same way I've used Windows, I can't quick do a complete comparison but my general impression is that Spotlight is superior even with search indexing on.

quote Redemption
quote harbin91
As for startup, this might be due to the fact that I'm using a SSD but my Windows 7 boots in less than 10 seconds anyway. It was fairly quick on my old PC.
It's true that the startup times are 50% faster only for spinning disks. On SSD Windows 8 vs Windows 7 might be a smaller (but still noticeable) difference. Note that most older and non-ultrabook laptops out there are spinning disks, so all of those will benefit from these improvements.

Regardless of whether anyone is upgrading, I wonder how many laptops will still be sold in 2013 with Windows 7. If you remember when Vista came out everyone was saying they would never upgrade, yet the entire market slowly ended up being all Vista due to new PC sales. The same will happen with Windows 8.

I think at the end of the day we're a bit too obsessed with Modern UI and not looking at the fact that W8 is a leap ahead of W7 in terms of core OS work. That, or people choose to dismiss that work because of their hatred of Modern UI. It's too bad MS took this added risk with the forced Modern UI, because without it I think W8 would be a really successful launch. Personally I think Modern UI looks great, but I think the Start screen is kind of ugly, compared to a Desktop.
One thing I am hapy with is the addition of using GUID for boot disks. I had to format my SSD using the MBR system because Windows would not install on a GUID disk. The problem with Vista is that it was plagued with issues from the start, pretty much all of them issues were addressed with Windows 7. Vista may actually be a good OS now, but at the start it caused so many problems for people and they didn't give it a huge chance at the beginning. The same could happen with Windows 8 and it not being given a chance.

I'm not denying that the modern UI would have it's place, but Microsoft have made the mistake of forcing it. Up until Windows Vista when the start menu was refined, on XP people if I didn't not like the new start menu could've gone back to the Classic W98 start menu. The taskbar in Windows Vista was refined into the new superbar, which combines some dock-like functions (the ability to pin), but added jumplists, improved it's general appearance and made it all around more user friendly, even then if people didn't like it they could've reverted to the old style one (use small icons, never combined the buttons and pinning the programs at one side would retain a quick launch idea. Ideas that have been refined but ultimately not abandoned.

Windows 8 just tries to chuck alot of them out of the window. This may be the direction that Windows is going but there is no reason to implement the changes instantly. From Windows 1 to 3., over the course of 7 years the general appearence did not alter much. Refinements were done (using icons instead of just a sheer list of stuff), but they were done gradually. Windows 95 marked the real jump in the UI. The start menu appeared and has been used and improved over the course of about 14 years.

That helped Microsoft since businesses don't ugprade just because a new CPU is out, or just because a new OS is out. They dont instantly install the new service pack either. The fact that these changes took place gradually didn't leave some people staring at the screen wondering what the *bleep* was what. That is the same reason that 32bit version of operating systems are still sold. Apple retain more control over that because they control the hardware so they can force 64bit upgrades on new machines. Between a start menu and a start screen, the menu would likely be considered quicker and easier, it's more compact, things can be pinned, document locations can easily be found at the side, the search bar is right at the bottom and can be typed into instantly and all the programs appear in an organised list. It's ultimately been the same (minus the start bar) for awhile, and people get used to that, meaning the know where it is instantly.

The upgrade from XP to W7 for me was largely effortless, for older people (such as my dad who is still using XP) he required supervision to help him use Windows 7 (for awhile he borrowed my PC before he got an old one), but imagine the jump that will take for him to Windows 8. I would be able to adapt, he would be completely lost, that is the biggest mistake Microsoft has made, by forcing it upon people.



Author:   Bass Ultra
Date:   Oct 15, 12 at 6:34am (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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I think without the Metro interface Windows 8 would have only been looked at as a service pack to Windows 7, in a sense. Microsoft would probably have gotten a similar response as Apple with their iPhone 5 announcement.



Author:   harbin
Date:   Oct 15, 12 at 6:42am (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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quote Bass Ultra
I think without the Metro interface Windows 8 would have only been looked at as a service pack to Windows 7, in a sense. Microsoft would probably have gotten a similar response as Apple with their iPhone 5 announcement.
But then some people regard Windows 7 as a fixed Windows Vista.




Downloaded the new Release Preview of Windows 8 and installed it in Virtual Box. Installation is different (slightly better on setting up some stuff), very awkward to use the OS without it being in full screen because it just loses focus when I try and get the hover things in the corners. Not sure how that will work in a tablet.

I do believe certain features such as the lock screen are better, I like the added customisation of it. Cloud computing I'm still slightly skeptical about, don't like the idea that someone only has to get my password to my Microsoft email address and can suddenly access everything, that might be addressed somewhere.

Still don't like the fact they've kept the desktop but implemented the startscreen and that it's like having two OS' running at the same time. IE open on the smartscreen thingie is completely seperate to IE running on desktop mode. They are both in the list when you alt+tab but they are like different programs in a different environment altogether.



Author:   Redemption
Date:   Oct 16, 12 at 2:57pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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quote harbin91
Still don't like the fact they've kept the desktop but implemented the startscreen and that it's like having two OS' running at the same time. IE open on the smartscreen thingie is completely seperate to IE running on desktop mode. They are both in the list when you alt+tab but they are like different programs in a different environment altogether.
I think that's because Modern UI IE is in fact a separate app. My guess is that MS is going to slowly encourage (push?) developers to move towards Modern UI Apps, which I suspect will run perfectly on Windows 8 and Windows 8 RT (or be more easily ported). Then as devices converge, it would mean that they have a lot more cross platform compatibility than ever before.



Author:   harbin
Date:   Oct 16, 12 at 3:24pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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Thing is some environments are meant to be separate. Apple have iOS and Mac, both are separate, just like Android and Chrome OS.

That is a risky strategy aswell because thats reliant on developers actually obliging, and I'm not that sure they will because for some it'll mean major interface changes.



Author:   biomed
Date:   Oct 16, 12 at 4:19pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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Very few PC enthusiasts are going to migrate to Windows 8 from Windows 7 at release. If you own a good quality touch screen monitor then maybe it's worthwhile for some? I for one won't be going for Windows 8, I've tried the beta and think it's c**p and I don't think I'll be alone.



Author:   Luis_GT
Date:   Oct 16, 12 at 5:50pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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Personally, I have Windows 8 on my desktop right now and I find it a pain to use... the software doesn't react as well and to close a program I have to hover to the left side then drag the mouse down so the side panel opens then I have to right click and click close... what the hell happened to just clicking X on the top right corner and switching from one app to another, you no longer have the explorer bar to click to whatever app you want to use another like say itunes to change the song.

I think this is a step backwards unless you have a touch screen. I work everything on both my desktop and laptop with only my mouse.



Author:   Redemption
Date:   Oct 16, 12 at 7:56pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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quote Luis_GT
Personally, I have Windows 8 on my desktop right now and I find it a pain to use... the software doesn't react as well and to close a program I have to hover to the left side then drag the mouse down so the side panel opens then I have to right click and click close... what the hell happened to just clicking X on the top right corner and switching from one app to another, you no longer have the explorer bar to click to whatever app you want to use another like say itunes to change the song.

I think this is a step backwards unless you have a touch screen. I work everything on both my desktop and laptop with only my mouse.
I was worried about that >_<. Do you have a screenshot of your desktop with some apps open?



Author:   Luis_GT
Date:   Oct 16, 12 at 8:43pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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quote Redemption
quote Luis_GT
Personally, I have Windows 8 on my desktop right now and I find it a pain to use... the software doesn't react as well and to close a program I have to hover to the left side then drag the mouse down so the side panel opens then I have to right click and click close... what the hell happened to just clicking X on the top right corner and switching from one app to another, you no longer have the explorer bar to click to whatever app you want to use another like say itunes to change the song.

I think this is a step backwards unless you have a touch screen. I work everything on both my desktop and laptop with only my mouse.
I was worried about that >_<. Do you have a screenshot of your desktop with some apps open?
I've managed to do a workaround by opening everything on desktop mode, but it requires that I create shortcuts for everything since you don't have anything else to be able to open the program.

My biggest gripe is that google chrome integrates with the Metro UI, same as the native apps with the exception of IE... but IE sucks. I also noticed that if I'm on google chrome inside the metro UI, if I download a .exe program, I have to manually switch to the desktop to be able to see if the installer opened as it just stays in the browser and gives you the feeling that it didn't do anything. it also bothers me that opening chrome in metro ui is not the same as desktop, so if for some reason you loaded up chrome in the UI and want to run other apps like itunes which start on desktop mode, you have to navigate out of chrome, go into desktop mode and then use itunes.

The other thing is searching for files... I have never had the habit of naming my HDD's and just go by HDD size... they are all called local disk on my desktop and it makes it a pain to search in the metro UI when you have a blank square box that says local volume and no search bar... so if I want to get a song from my old download file which has over 1000 different files I don't think I'll find it inside the metro UI app since all the files folders and installers have the same blank box and only the name changes... alsoif I open the file in the desktop it will open the app on the desktop and not the metro UI.


EDIT: Also noticed how painfully hard it was to find the shutdown button... I originally managed to find it by logging out, then clicking on the screen to where I type my password and the power button was on the lower corner.

In the metro ui its located inside the setting on the side bar... so you have to use the correct gesture to open the side bar in order to get into settings to finally be able to shut the PC down...

quite bothersome...



Author:   harbin
Date:   Oct 17, 12 at 4:34am (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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quote Luis_GT
quote Redemption
quote Luis_GT
Personally, I have Windows 8 on my desktop right now and I find it a pain to use... the software doesn't react as well and to close a program I have to hover to the left side then drag the mouse down so the side panel opens then I have to right click and click close... what the hell happened to just clicking X on the top right corner and switching from one app to another, you no longer have the explorer bar to click to whatever app you want to use another like say itunes to change the song.

I think this is a step backwards unless you have a touch screen. I work everything on both my desktop and laptop with only my mouse.
I was worried about that >_<. Do you have a screenshot of your desktop with some apps open?
I've managed to do a workaround by opening everything on desktop mode, but it requires that I create shortcuts for everything since you don't have anything else to be able to open the program.

My biggest gripe is that google chrome integrates with the Metro UI, same as the native apps with the exception of IE... but IE sucks. I also noticed that if I'm on google chrome inside the metro UI, if I download a .exe program, I have to manually switch to the desktop to be able to see if the installer opened as it just stays in the browser and gives you the feeling that it didn't do anything. it also bothers me that opening chrome in metro ui is not the same as desktop, so if for some reason you loaded up chrome in the UI and want to run other apps like itunes which start on desktop mode, you have to navigate out of chrome, go into desktop mode and then use itunes.

The other thing is searching for files... I have never had the habit of naming my HDD's and just go by HDD size... they are all called local disk on my desktop and it makes it a pain to search in the metro UI when you have a blank square box that says local volume and no search bar... so if I want to get a song from my old download file which has over 1000 different files I don't think I'll find it inside the metro UI app since all the files folders and installers have the same blank box and only the name changes... alsoif I open the file in the desktop it will open the app on the desktop and not the metro UI.


EDIT: Also noticed how painfully hard it was to find the shutdown button... I originally managed to find it by logging out, then clicking on the screen to where I type my password and the power button was on the lower corner.

In the metro ui its located inside the setting on the side bar... so you have to use the correct gesture to open the side bar in order to get into settings to finally be able to shut the PC down...

quite bothersome...
I couldn't actually find the close button TBH. I resorted to using the trusty alt+F4... that thing with Chrome though is something that I've noticed. The OS treats things running in Metro and Desktop as seperate. You can alt+tab through to them but if you're in Desktop Mode, then any program (or app as they're now called for some stupidly bizarre reason), does not appear on the taskbar.

I think the OS itself has made some steps forward, but it is marred by some bad decisions on the usability front. Why Microsoft needed to do this was beyond me. The performance and security upgrades should've been possible to do to Windows 7 through the use of a major service pack update, with the Metro been done as an optional download. Following this it'd be nice somewhat if they ended up following the Mac way of doing things. Updates are free, every now and then a major enhancement is done (one that doesn't change the UI).

Windows XP service pack 2 brought about new features and enhances for the OS.

Aero BTW is still enabled in desktop mode. The glass taskbar is still present.


Microsofts view on that though seems to be that we want to abandon every other OS prior as soon as Windows 8 comes out. I don't personally use them, but the gadget gallery has gone completely to focus on Windows 8. The developer blog is completely glittered with Windows 8. Not sure about the comments on one of the posts but they all seem supisciously pro W8. Someone has tried to put startmenu and stuff back into desktop mode but with that being a program sat above the kernel, that will be subject to the startup process. The PC will need to load the program before it appears and since alot of people don't quite optimise their boot process, that might take a few seconds longer than some would like.

I just think that Microsoft have made some major mistakes on this OS. The UI being one of them, it should not have been forced upon people, it should've remained optional feature.



Author:   Redemption
Date:   Oct 19, 12 at 12:28am (PST)
Subject:   re: Windows 8 Might Not Be As Bad As You Think?
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quote Luis_GT
EDIT: Also noticed how painfully hard it was to find the shutdown button... I originally managed to find it by logging out, then clicking on the screen to where I type my password and the power button was on the lower corner.
Stardock's Start8 app might be useful for people who are stuck on the Start Menu. It doesn't look as good as the Win7 Start button though.


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