Author: GhostMember
Date: Apr 25, 08 11:00AM
Subject: HHM Tier List Discussion
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---<Top>---
Matthew
Guy
Raven
Priscilla
Serra
Ninian/Nils
---<High>---
Erk
Oswin
Lowen
Hector
Eliwood
Sain
Kent
Pent
Harken
Marcus
---<Mid>---
Rebecca
Geitz
Legault
Lucius
Lyn
Canas
Florina
Isadora
Fiora
Hawkeye
Dorcas
Heath
Athos
---<Low>---
Vaida
Jaffar
Louise
Nino
Dart
Wil
Bartre
Karel
Rath
---<Bottom>---
Renault
Farina
Wallace
Karla
Discuss~
And please try to give some elaboration why you think a certain unit should be moved up/down.
This message was edited by GhostMember on Aug 02 2008.
This message was edited by GhostMember on Aug 02 2008.
Author: Insanity Prevails
Date: Apr 25, 08 12:16PM
Subject: HHM Tier List Discussion
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Erk top? Why?
Why Kent over Sain?
Why Harken in high?
Since three points at once is overkill take your pick.
Author: GhostMember
Date: Apr 25, 08 12:41PM
Subject: re: HHM Tier List Discussion
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I'll start with the first one, then.
Erk at top because his earlygame offense >>>> everyone elses ('cept maybe Marcus's) due to targeting Res and LHM training. Midgame, his offense is still relatively high compared to others. He's among the most reliable units to take down Wyverns since he also has 1~2 range, which prevents him from taking counters most of the time. And from midgame onwards, he also gains staves.
Endgame, his offense is still good, and he still has the 1~2 range, and second function as a healer.
Anything I missed which could bump him down to High?
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I just realised I forgot Pent and Louise. >.> *edits*
This message was edited by GhostMember on Apr 25 2008.
Author: Insanity Prevails
Date: Apr 25, 08 03:42PM
Subject: re: HHM Tier List Discussion
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quote GhostMemberWhat about his (lack of) defence?Anything I missed which could bump him down to High?
Earlygame, he doesn't have it. If units like Eliwood and Lyn can be criticized for their poor defences then so can Erk. Granted, he's not eating attacks as often, but then not being capable of eating attacks =/= top tier. A bit of extra offence doesn't make that go away.
The only way earlygame offence would help Erk's campaign for top tier is if he was reliably one-rounding stuff. I dunno, I don't have figures for that, but I don't think he does.
Midgame doesn't change matters drastically. He has some harder targets to hit but those targets are capable of hitting him back harder too. Erk's problem is also a lack of solid supports to boost his poor defences. In midgame: Pent, Lousie and lolNino haven't arrived yet. Serra's bonuses and movement suit him but she takes bloody ages to build up. Priscilla's fast enough but A) she has a lot of supporters B) her bonuses are crappy and C) there's an actual movement difference.
Again, one-rounding awesomeness would help, but many enemy classes have generic growth rates where their res growth is equal or higher than the def growth. =\
Endgame is definitely more favourable to him. Pent's arrived and there have been loads of turns to build the Serra support. Erk also has staves, as you mentioned. With a Pent and Serra support setup defences no longer matter due to +25 avoid and Erk could definitely be one of the higher ranking units on the field.
But endgame =/= whole game. Slightly higher offence doesn't make inferior defences go away, and if by chance supporters don't exist or aren't in range then his performance drops significantly even in endgame.
Author: cmh
Date: Apr 25, 08 08:02PM
Subject: re: HHM Tier List Discussion
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- Hector for top, pl0x.
Author: HeavenFireSword
Date: Apr 25, 08 08:11PM
Subject: re: HHM Tier List Discussion
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Shouldn't Lucius be better tier than Erk? Besides, no way Harken can beat Karel. Isadora should be low tier. And Dart is better than Dorcas by far, so he should get middle tier. Hector to top. Oh, and Jaffar is missing. That's just evil man. Jaffar/Karel for president >_<
Author: Insanity Prevails
Date: Apr 25, 08 08:58PM
Subject: re: HHM Tier List Discussion
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Lucius better than Erk?
Erk wins offence.
Erk wins defence.
Erk wins funds.
The only thing Lucius wins is stave utility, since he starts at C promoted and not E, but Erk wins everywhere else.
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Harken has the HHM stat boosts, brave sword, more attack, more HP/Def and dual weapons. Karel has crit, overkill hit and a bit more speed. Supports are iffy but Harken's are faster anyway. Maybe GM would enlighten us further as to why such a large gap exists, but I definitely think Harken is superior.
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Dart's position is most likely based on funds rank. A 50k dent isn't pretty to promote your pirate. That 50k could either be used to promote Dart or equip the entire army with silvers/killers. Possibly allowing a player to dip into a few stat boosters even - speedwings can make all the difference at times.
Farina's placement is for a similar reason. That said, I really don't agree with Farina > Dart. Dart exists before her and is a fairly solid axefighter. His cost comes from promotion, so he could contribute up to level 20, be benched and still do more than she does if she's recruited.
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Hector's hurt by lategame. Fixed promotion ftl.
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Jaffar, huh? Assassin's do help exp rank... GM, what about between Marcus and Lucius?
Author: HeavenFireSword
Date: Apr 25, 08 10:08PM
Subject: re: HHM Tier List Discussion
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Actually, Lucius wins offense, but after checking, he DOES lose at everything else but res, which doesn't really matter, since Erk's is pretty high too..
What are those HHM stat boosts?
Karel doesn't really need the def nor the HP, since he has superior avoid. ?/20 Karel avoid is 70, 142 hit with Woo Dao, 69 crit because of S rank. ?/20 Harken avoid is 56, 128 hit with Brave sword, 16 crit because of S rank (I mean, level 20 = S rank of course). Karel is definitely owning Harken, and he is known as the Sword Demon. That's gotta mean something...
Still, Dart is better than Dorcas, Isadora and Marcus. He still deserves the middle. Come on, he's a nice guy, and he is a Pirate
quote Insanity PrevailsHector has his own story, and I'm sure he doesn't join late there.Hector's hurt by lategame. Fixed promotion ftl.
Author: Insanity Prevails
Date: Apr 25, 08 10:34PM
Subject: re: HHM Tier List Discussion
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quote HeavenFireSwordThunder - 8 mightActually, Lucius wins offense, but after checking, he DOES lose at everything else but res, which doesn't really matter, since Erk's is pretty high too..
Shine - 6 mt
And while Lucius starts two levels higher, Erk has more playtime and so will likely have a slight level lead anyway. 2 chapters in Lyn's mode and then 4 chapters in Hector's mode.
If anything they'll be tied.
quote HeavenFireSwordAny unit that joins as an enemy (as in you talk to them when they are red and turn them blue) will have boosted stats. I think it's +5 HP, +2s to a couple and +1s to a couple more.What are those HHM stat boosts?
quote HeavenFireSwordHarken isn't using the brave sword in comparisons, and Karel would be taking Killing Edges since they are buyable. And yeah, neither of them start --/20 either.Karel doesn't really need the def nor the HP, since he has superior avoid. ?/20 Karel avoid is 70, 142 hit with Woo Dao, 69 crit because of S rank. ?/20 Harken avoid is 56, 128 hit with Brave sword, 16 crit because of S rank (I mean, level 20 = S rank of course). Karel is definitely owning Harken, and he is known as the Sword Demon.
Harken takes a killer axe. Karel's losing 6-7 attack points trying to crit against a Harken that already has 47 crit with a killer axe. This before HHM boosts (which aren't static) so the offence gap could easily be 8-9 points of damage.
Karel's avoid isn't massive. >.> 70 avoid? Perhaps if everything was a steel axe this would mean something, but they are not. It only just cancels the hit out of a steel lance, and enemies do use weapons more accurate than steel lances and have some semblance of skill.
quote HeavenFireSwordI didn't say he joined late. I said he promoted late.Hector has his own story, and I'm sure he doesn't join late there.
Being stuck at 20/-- because your promotion is tied to an event seriously impacts your usefulness. If earlygame performance = top tier then Marcus would be there.
Author: GhostMember
Date: Apr 26, 08 01:07AM
Subject: re: HHM Tier List Discussion
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@IP - 'k. So, where should Erk go? I'm thinking about right below Serra. Any objections?
About Jaffar, I'm thinking either above or below Canas. He does helps Exp, but he's comes very very late. :[ That, and his supports aren't really reliable to help him boost his Crt for an Assassination Exp boost.
About Farina & Dart - 'k. idk since Farina helps out Exp for getting easy kills at low levels in her starting chapter, flying utility, and is actually viable to be promoted. >.>
I'm not sure whether Dart's combat abilities before promotion is enough to push him above Farina.
@HFS - Isadora is actually a decent unit, believe it or not. Being promoted, coming with good weapon levels, arriving relatively early (for her level), and having very nice support boosts make her a decent combat unit. The only drawback of fielding her is that you can't field another unit who's better than her.
HHM boosts are [5 x (Class Growths)%] which are added to the character's stats.
IP countered everything else with what I was going to say.
Author: HeavenFireSword
Date: Apr 26, 08 03:15AM
Subject: re: HHM Tier List Discussion
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How do you activate those bonus?
But, still, Erk's average attack at level 3 would be 5, Lucius has more attack. The tomes fix AND tie that. But after a while, Lucius WILL build more attack than Erk.
About Harken V.S. Karel.
1- Steel axe has the same hit than the killer. And still, the 46 crit becomes 28 due to Karel's luck. Karel's crit become 55 due to Harken's luck.
2- You really would fight an axe against a sword?
I'll be back, my evil laugh proves it!>>>
Author: FireEmblemFanatic
Date: Apr 26, 08 03:17AM
Subject: re: HHM Tier List Discussion
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quote Insanity PrevailsIt doesn't hurt usefulness as much as EXP rank. But I guess that is usefulness.Being stuck at 20/-- because your promotion is tied to an event seriously impacts your usefulness. If earlygame performance = top tier then Marcus would be there.
I don't doubt Erk's tier, but above Raven and Guy? Why? HHM bonuses FTW.
Author: GhostMember
Date: Apr 26, 08 03:38AM
Subject: re: HHM Tier List Discussion
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quote HeavenFireSwordPlay Hector Hard ModeHow do you activate those bonus?
quote HeavenFireSwordErk and Lucy aren't likely to be level 3 by the time you recruit them in HHM.But, still, Erk's average attack at level 3 would be 5, Lucius has more attack. The tomes fix AND tie that. But after a while, Lucius WILL build more attack than Erk.
quote HeavenFireSwordI see what you're getting at. However, a fight between Karel and Harken is irrelevant while discussing which of them will be more useful in HHM.About Harken V.S. Karel.
1- Steel axe has the same hit than the killer. And still, the 46 crit becomes 28 due to Karel's luck. Karel's crit become 55 due to Harken's luck.
2- You really would fight an axe against a sword?
quote HeavenFireSwordD:I'll be back, my evil laugh proves it!>>>
@FEF - I'm also wondering where I should put him now that IP reminded me about his bad durability. Perhaps below Ninian?
Author: HeavenFireSword
Date: Apr 26, 08 05:22AM
Subject: re: HHM Tier List Discussion
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I'm back!! (my evil laugh never fails
)quote GhostMemberBut you recruit Lucius at lvl 3 on Lyn's. And Erk at level 1. That was my point. Lucius is a better offence then.Erk and Lucy aren't likely to be level 3 by the time you recruit them in HHM.
quote GhostMemberYeah, I know that Harken is more useful due to extra weapon and supports, etc. But still, it's just not ok that Harken is on High and Karel on BottomI see what you're getting at. However, a fight between Karel and Harken is irrelevant while discussing which of them will be more useful in HHM.
Author: GhostMember
Date: Apr 26, 08 06:46AM
Subject: re: HHM Tier List Discussion
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quote HeavenFireSwordErk joins 2 chapters earlier, IIRC.I'm back!! (my evil laugh never failsquote GhostMemberBut you recruit Lucius at lvl 3 on Lyn's. And Erk at level 1. That was my point. Lucius is a better offence then.Erk and Lucy aren't likely to be level 3 by the time you recruit them in HHM.
quote HeavenFireSwordAnd HHM bonuses too.quote GhostMemberYeah, I know that Harken is more useful due to extra weapon and supports, etc. But still, it's just not ok that Harken is on High and Karel on BottomI see what you're getting at. However, a fight between Karel and Harken is irrelevant while discussing which of them will be more useful in HHM.
I can only see Karel in low or bottom tier because by just recruiting him, you're already losing out on a High-tier character. :/
He may be better than Renault, though I'm not too sure whether Renault's late join time is worse than losing out on Harken.