Neoseeker.com Forum Thread: Best/Most Powerful Champion - page 4

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original thread: http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/49733/t1579622-best-most-powerful-champion/4.htm


Author:   ThirteenOfTwo
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 4:19pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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quote DragonMaster ACCLAIM
You say that the gap between the levels of the player's Pokémon and the levels of Lance's Pokémon in the first battle against him is not that significant. However, I actually believe that at the point in the game in which the player reaches the Pokémon League, the gap between the levels of the Elite Four's Pokémon and the levels of the player's Pokémon in Gold, Silver, Crystal, HeartGold and SoulSilver is actually greater than that same gap in all the other Pokémon games. I'm not sure if I played through the game too quickly or anything, but in my playthrough of Pokémon HeartGold, I only raised three Pokémon, and ensured that I battled every single trainer on every route and in every dungeon in Johto, yet by the time I reached the Pokémon League, all three of my Pokémon's levels were only at about 40. This tells me that if one were to actually play through the game using six Pokémon, they would actually need to do quite a lot of level grinding in order to actually match the levels of Lance's Pokémon.
Must have been slow Exp. gainers, then, because I too matched him pretty well with a team of 6 and no grinding.

quote DragonMaster ACCLAIM
By claiming that one Pokémon with one Ice-type move is enough to defeat Lance, you must be making one of the following claims:

1. That your Pokémon can consistently take down Lance's Pokémon with Ice-type moves before they even get the chance to retaliate.
2. That your Pokémon can easily and consistently shrug off the incredibly powerful and versatile attacks of Lance's dragon Pokémon, or at least take minimal damage from them, while being able to strike back hard with Ice-type attacks.
3. That you are using healing items such as Max Revives or Full Restores to ensure that your Pokémon with an Ice-type move can survive longer than it would normally be able to, or keep fighting even after it's been knocked out the first time.

In the first two situations, you would be either overleveled, or have a Pokémon which would be difficult or unlikely, if not impossible to obtain at the point in the game in which you battle Lance (and by saying this, any Pokémon holding a Choice Scarf are included). In the third situation, I don't see how constantly needing to heal one's Pokémon isn't a greater form of difficulty than needing to switch, especially if the battle mode is set to "SHIFT" rather than "SET" (and if your argument involves going out of one's way to obtain a Choice Scarf before battling Lance, then I don't see how this simple change in the battle mode can be anywhere near unreasonable).

This message was edited by DragonMaster ACCLAIM on Sep 27 2010.
I make Claim 1, because precluding Choice Scarf from the argument is silly. Just let your mother hold your savings and it's unlikely that you won't have a Choice Scarf before the E4. And since the Choice Scarf item description tells you what it does, assuming new players won't think to use it is more than a little wrong, especially because most new players probably leave their money with Mom anyways.

quote Insanity Prevails
I'm sure you'd switch for Gyarados and Charizard, though one has a crippling electric weakness and the other never seems all that scary to begin with. =\
Whoops, forgot that. Sorry. Two moves, then. Given how likely it is that your team will carry both an Ice/Dragon move and an Electric/Rock move...



Author:   Acatia
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 4:37pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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You people pop way too many wall of texts
Imo, regardless of who you like more, anybody with a mono type team is shooting himself in the foot, sure there are some ways like with waters to trick out a lightning type with a water/ground and slow grass with water/flying or water/poison(but water has way too many freaking pokemon under itself anyway) so until there is a Dragon/fire with Thick Fat, Ice will still be the bane of a mono dragon team
btw you could argue Onokusu's going to "change things" since he only has 2 single weakness and no doubles, I'll have to say I'd be suprised if he gets through the first month post release and remain in the metagame (i know, not exactly 100% on topic but still)

I liked Blue cuz he's the first champion, period.
However is he the best, I dont think so, he ain't bad, but I guess Cynthia might have a slight edge over him



Author:   The Deathwind
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 11:40pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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quote DragonMaster ACCLAIM
You're implying that levels alone determine a trainer's strength. Pokéfan Alex on route 13 in Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver has a level 65 Magikarp, but does this make him stronger than any of the Elite Four members in the first battle against them? If anything, I believe that the lower levels of Lance's Pokémon is to balance out the fact that his team consists of extremely powerful Pokémon, with three pseudo-legendary Pokémon in both matches, and as such his strength relative to the other Champions (other than possibly Red) becomes completely debatable.
If we're going on the Pokemon each team is comprised of, then as far as I'm concerened Lance still loses as a trainer. There's a whole world of difference between using a team of dragons (and cheating like hell with them, which Lance quite blatantly does with his Dragonites on the first run through) to steamroll your way to the top and clawing your way to the top using more run-of-the mill Pokemon like the ones Blue uses (seriously, I'd only really consider half of Blue's initial lineup stellar, and his rematch teams still keep Exeggutor/Arcanine/both), and in my opinion the latter would show more skill on the trainer's part.



Author:   Cirno
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 11:42pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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Cynthia is my favorite. I haven't fought the others in a looonng time.



Author:   Xtreme8899
Date:   Sep 28, 10 at 12:41am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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Cynthia. She was hard to beat and had pretty good music. Wallace was such a joke I killed him with one pokemon.



Author:   DragonMaster ACCLAIM
Date:   Sep 28, 10 at 7:14am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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quote ThirteenOfTwo
Must have been slow Exp. gainers, then, because I too matched him pretty well with a team of 6 and no grinding.
OK then, maybe you are right about that, as all three of the Pokémon I raised indeed had a slow growth rate.

quote ThirteenOfTwo
I make Claim 1, because precluding Choice Scarf from the argument is silly. Just let your mother hold your savings and it's unlikely that you won't have a Choice Scarf before the E4. And since the Choice Scarf item description tells you what it does, assuming new players won't think to use it is more than a little wrong, especially because most new players probably leave their money with Mom anyways.
There are only three ways to obtain a Choice Scarf in Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver:

1. To buy this item for 10 Castle Points in the Battle Castle in the Battle Frontier, which is only accessible after beating the Pokémon League.
2. To walk 9000 steps in the "Winner's Path" course on the Pokéwalker, a course which can only be unlocked by the player downloading the course at a special Event or Wi-Fi-Event.
3. Trade a Pokémon holding a Choice Scarf from another game.

I don't think it's reasonable at all to assume that the player has done any of the above before battling the Pokémon League, therefore the possibility of a Pokémon holding a Choice Scarf before that point should indeed be excluded.

quote Acatia
Imo, regardless of who you like more, anybody with a mono type team is shooting himself in the foot,
I disagree with this notion. At the very least, I do not believe that all mono-type teams are bad because they are inherently so, and I shall explain why:

In a Pokémon battle, there are only two types of teams which you could possibly face: Balanced teams (teams containing six Pokémon of different types), and unbalanced teams (Mono-type teams, or teams in which a significant number of its members all share the same type or weaknesses). Now, assume that you are using a mono-type team. If you were to battle an opponent with an unbalanced teams, then your team would either have a type advantage against that opponent (for example, you use a mono-Water-type team, while the opponent uses a mono-Fire-type team), or it would have a type disadvantage against them (for example, you use a mono-Water-type team, while the opponent uses a team consisting of a significant number of Grass-type Pokémon). That much is common sense.

Now, let's compare the performance of a mono-type team against another unbalanced team, with the performance of a balanced team against an unbalanced team.

Disregarding the fact that some types are simply superior to other types (for example, Dragon as a type is quite obviously superior to Poison as a type), how well a balanced team performs against an unbalanced team is, for the most part, independent on the type which the unbalanced team focuses on. So while a mono-Fire-type team would struggle against a mono-Water-type team but would defeat a mono-Grass-type team quite easily, a balanced team should experience equal difficulty in both cases. Therefore, you cannot say that balanced teams are inherently overall better than mono-type teams when facing other unbalanced teams, as the latter simply give themselves an extreme disadvantage against some teams, in exchange for gaining an extreme advantage over others. Of course, it may be possible to argue that some specific mono-type teams are inherently bad. For example, you could say that a mono-Poison-type team or a mono-Bug-type team is bad, due to those being some of the weakest of the seventeen types. However, you cannot claim that mono-type teams in general are inherently bad.

Now, let's analyze the performance of a mono-type team against a balanced team. People seem to believe that the fact that a balanced team is highly likely to include at least one Pokémon which can exploit the weaknesses of the entire mono-type team is something which automatically puts the mono-type team at a disadvantage against the balanced team. Sure, if a mono-Grass-type team faced a balanced team, and the user of the balanced team sent out a Fire-type Pokémon, then at that point in the battle, the user of the mono-Grass-type team may seem like they are faced with a disadvantage. After all, because Fire-type Pokémon are strong against Grass-type Pokémon, the user of the mono-Grass-type team may need to sacrifice one or two Pokémon just to take out the Fire-type Pokémon. After the Fire-type Pokémon has fainted, then what? The user of the balanced team may send out a Flying-type Pokémon, requiring the user of the Grass-type team to sacrifice an additional one or two Pokémon to take it out. However, balanced teams by nature cannot consist of six Pokémon that all have a type advantage against Grass-type Pokémon, so while the balanced team's Pokémon that are strong against Grass-type Pokémon may prove to be a huge challenge to its opponent, once these Pokémon are taken down, the balanced team would now not only no longer have any counters to Grass-type Pokémon, but it is also highly likely that it contains Pokémon that are weak against Grass-type Pokémon, tipping the battle towards the direction of the mono-type team. Of course, there are exceptions to this rule, and certain mono-type teams may be at a disadvantage even against balanced teams. For example, a mono-Poison-type team would likely struggle even against a balanced team, due to how common the move Earthquake is. However, in the case of most other types, especially Dragon, which is widely considered to be the ultimate type, that is certainly not the case. So indeed, like I said before, how "good" a mono-type team is, is definitely based on how "good" the Pokémon of that type generally are, but such teams are by no means inherently worse than balanced teams.

I am also aware that in competitive battles, almost no competent mono-type teams (other than possibly Water-type teams relying on Rain Dance) exist. However, I believe that this is simply a result of other factors (such as the fact that within each of the seventeen types, only a few Pokémon are really useful in battle, so mono-type teams are often forced to include Pokémon that are not very strong themselves, while balanced teams tend to choose six Pokémon which are each among the best of their own type), rather than the notion that mono-type teams are inherently bad, as most people seem to believe.

For the record, I once participated in Generation III battles on Pokémon NetBattle using a team of six Rayquaza. Despite this team's glaring weakness to Ice-type moves, I have used it to defeat countless skilled trainers using teams containing multiple Ice Beam users (among them including the likes of Mewtwo, Kyogre, Latias and Latios). I have even saved many of these battle logs, and I still have them on my computer, and I believe that these logs perfectly demonstrate the theory I just explained. I could post some of them if anyone is interested.

quote The Deathwind
If we're going on the Pokemon each team is comprised of, then as far as I'm concerened Lance still loses as a trainer. There's a whole world of difference between using a team of dragons (and cheating like hell with them, which Lance quite blatantly does with his Dragonites on the first run through) to steamroll your way to the top and clawing your way to the top using more run-of-the mill Pokemon like the ones Blue uses (seriously, I'd only really consider half of Blue's initial lineup stellar, and his rematch teams still keep Exeggutor/Arcanine/both), and in my opinion the latter would show more skill on the trainer's part.
At least to me, a trainer's Pokémon is a major part of their strength. Besides, the "lack of skill" that is required to win with dragon Pokémon is more than made up for by the skill that is required to even capture and raise them in the first place anyway, as even Lance himself stated at one point:

"You know that dragons are mythical POKéMON! They're hard to catch and raise, but their powers are superior! They're virtually indestructible!"

Also, I personally think that the fact that he can have underleveled Pokémon is actually something admirable, and I believe it can be seen as an indication of his skills at raising Pokémon, as he can make them evolve earlier than they would normally be able to. But of course, this is simply a matter of opinion.



Author:   ThirteenOfTwo
Date:   Sep 28, 10 at 7:47am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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quote DragonMaster ACCLAIM
quote ThirteenOfTwo
I make Claim 1, because precluding Choice Scarf from the argument is silly. Just let your mother hold your savings and it's unlikely that you won't have a Choice Scarf before the E4. And since the Choice Scarf item description tells you what it does, assuming new players won't think to use it is more than a little wrong, especially because most new players probably leave their money with Mom anyways.
There are only three ways to obtain a Choice Scarf in Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver:

1. To buy this item for 10 Castle Points in the Battle Castle in the Battle Frontier, which is only accessible after beating the Pokémon League.
2. To walk 9000 steps in the "Winner's Path" course on the Pokéwalker, a course which can only be unlocked by the player downloading the course at a special Event or Wi-Fi-Event.
3. Trade a Pokémon holding a Choice Scarf from another game.

I don't think it's reasonable at all to assume that the player has done any of the above before battling the Pokémon League, therefore the possibility of a Pokémon holding a Choice Scarf before that point should indeed be excluded.
Yes, please do ignore what I just said.

quote me
Just let your mother hold your savings and it's unlikely that you won't have a Choice Scarf before the E4.
Source.

quote DragonMaster ACCLAIM
At least to me, a trainer's Pokémon is a major part of their strength. Besides, the "lack of skill" that is required to win with dragon Pokémon is more than made up for by the skill that is required to even capture and raise them in the first place anyway, as even Lance himself stated at one point:

"You know that dragons are mythical POKéMON! They're hard to catch and raise, but their powers are superior! They're virtually indestructible!"

Also, I personally think that the fact that he can have underleveled Pokémon is actually something admirable, and I believe it can be seen as an indication of his skills at raising Pokémon, as he can make them evolve earlier than they would normally be able to. But of course, this is simply a matter of opinion.
Game script means nothing; Dragons are hardly more difficult to catch than any other Pokemon and certainly get raised just like the others, albeit slower.



Author:   Icekickseverything
Date:   Sep 28, 10 at 9:48am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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I swear my mum brought me one as a gift, maybe not before the E4 but definently she got me one.



Author:   DragonMaster ACCLAIM
Date:   Sep 28, 10 at 9:58am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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quote ThirteenOfTwo
Yes, please do ignore what I just said.

quote me
Just let your mother hold your savings and it's unlikely that you won't have a Choice Scarf before the E4.
Source.
Hm, Bulbapedia's page didn't mention that method of obtaining a Choice Scarf. I guess you're right on that point, though it still doesn't change the fact that a person playing through the game for the first time shouldn't even know what Lance's weakness is in anyway, much less who the Champion is. In any case, I personally do not even believe that it is fair to take into account the possibility that a trainer's opponent utlizes specific preparation solely to defeat said trainer when discussing that trainer's strength.

quote ThirteenOfTwo
Game script means nothing; Dragons are hardly more difficult to catch than any other Pokemon and certainly get raised just like the others, albeit slower.
If Lance was referring to any difference between raising dragon Pokémon and raising most other Pokémon that can be observed within the game mechanics, then I believe he was referring exactly to the fact that dragons generally take longer to raise, although whether that is really a form of difficulty or not is completely debatable (I personally believe that it is more admirable at the very least, since raising a dragon Pokémon to a high level does take considerably more time and effort than raising most other Pokémon to the same level, and thus the lack of difficulty he experienced in climbing to the top of the Pokémon League was a reward he very much deserved for his efforts). Not that it even matters if Lance may not have been referring to any difficulty in raising dragons that can be observed within the game mechanics though, as I only mentioned that to address a point which had equally little to do with the game mechanics anyway.

This message was edited by DragonMaster ACCLAIM on Sep 28 2010.



Author:   Insanity Prevails
Date:   Sep 28, 10 at 10:27am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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quote Acatia
You people pop way too many wall of texts
Haha, this is nothing. You should have been around the GBA/GCN Fire Emblem forums when they were really active. Our pointless debates over why that extra point of speed matters more than extra magic puts this to shame.

Erm, anyway. DM_A, I don't know about you but when I first played Pokemon (this being way back on Yellow, mind you) I had a pokemon with ice beam. I wasn't especially preparing for anyone with it. It just gave me type coverage and, well, most water types get good mileage out of tacking an ice move on anyways and everyone has a water type on their team.

Also, I think you're misunderstanding something. The point isn't that a trainer sets up an entire team specifically to counter Lance. lol, like anybody would bring in 3 ice types, 1 electric, 1 rock and 1 of any of these types just to pound on his weaknesses when there is an entire Elite 4 to smash through beforehand. The point is that you could reasonably sweep four of Lance's initial team with one scarfed/fast ice type (aerodactyl's defences aren't good enough to take a 2x ice beam and live tbh so it would probably be swept as effectively as the dragonites).

Not sure why this "first time trainer" arguement exists either. Surely if an experienced trainer is having more problems against Cynthia than Lance then that would make Cynthia the tougher champion?




Author:   Tf916
Date:   Sep 28, 10 at 2:18pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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I had more trouble with Cynthia then i have ever had with Lance.



Author:   morelm
Date:   Sep 28, 10 at 3:54pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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quote Tf916
I had more trouble with Cynthia then i have ever had with Lance.

Same.
Took me quite a long time to beat her, therefore Sinnoh's league was the hardest for me.


Lance was really easy, used my ampharos to beat him :\
Level 63 ampharos with Thuner, discharge, signal beam and [something] gem, rock type move.
It was easy :\



Author:   Tf916
Date:   Sep 28, 10 at 3:58pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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Her spirtomb/Garchomp pretty much sweeped my team.



Author:   morelm
Date:   Sep 28, 10 at 4:47pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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Same.



Author:   Quixotic
Date:   Sep 28, 10 at 4:58pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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quote Tf916
Her spirtomb/Garchomp pretty much sweeped my team.
This. These two and Milotic are difficult to take down. I'm glad these three are appearing again in Black and White.


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