Neoseeker.com Forum Thread: Best/Most Powerful Champion - page 3

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Author:   The Deathwind
Date:   Sep 26, 10 at 2:50pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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quote DragonMaster ACCLAIM
quote The Deathwind
> implying that anyone who can be swept by one water Pokemon with Ice Beam is the most powerful trainer
> Implying that a single Champion exists whose entire team cannot be taken out by one Pokémon.
Well, yeah, if your Pokemon are stupidly overleveled then even Cynthia and Blue go down without much of a fight, but at roughly equivalent levels Lance has the most crippling weakness and is pretty much tied with Steven for the most easily swept. His HG/SS rematch is even easier to sweep as he ended up with more Pokemon that have that 4x Ice weakness.

quote DragonMaster ACCLAIM
> Only taking into consideration the possibility that a trainer's weakness is exploited in battle when attempting to determine said trainer's overall strength.
> Implying people wouldn't try to exploit a weakness as crippling as Lance's Ice weakness if they knew said weakness was possessed.

As for overall strength, if you compare the Champions in their strongest form he is still the weakest except for Wallace.

Wallace, Emerald Championship Battle: 57, 58, 55, 56, 56, 56
Lance, Heart Gold/Soul Silver Championship Rematch: 72, 72, 75, 68, 73, 68
Green/Blue, Fire Red/Leaf Green Championship Rematch: 72, 72, 73, 73, 73 75
Cynthia, Platinum Championship Rematch: 74, 74, 76, 76, 74, 78



Steven, Emerald battle in Meteor Falls: 77, 75, 76, 76, 76, 78

And for the hell of it, the overall strongest opponents of Gen 4 (and overall so far), maxed out Platinum Rival and Red.

Rival Barry/Pearl, Final Platinum Battle Frontier Rematch: 81, 79, 79, 83, 82, 85
Pokemon Trainer Red, Mt Silver Battle: 88, 84, 84, 84, 80, 82

Lance is far from the most powerful trainer, no matter what the G/S/C/HG/SS script says. You can argue that he's the coolest trainer (which I would personally wouldn't), but not the strongest.





Author:   Cucurbita
Date:   Sep 26, 10 at 2:58pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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Author:   morelm
Date:   Sep 26, 10 at 3:19pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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I havnt faught Isshu's champion yet, I was ready for this stupid psychic\dark E4 member, training my koromori[or whatever it's evolution name is] right now.



Author:   Shawn Yasumara
Date:   Sep 26, 10 at 4:27pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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I'd say Cynthia is the strongest,and she's also my favorite



Author:   ViperSean
Date:   Sep 26, 10 at 7:18pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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quote DragonMaster ACCLAIM
quote The Deathwind
> implying that anyone who can be swept by one water Pokemon with Ice Beam is the most powerful trainer
> Implying that a single Champion exists whose entire team cannot be taken out by one Pokémon.
> Only taking into consideration the possibility that a trainer's weakness is exploited in battle when attempting to determine said trainer's overall strength.
>implying either of you can greentext



Author:   DragonMaster ACCLAIM
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 7:49am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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quote The Deathwind
Well, yeah, if your Pokemon are stupidly overleveled then even Cynthia and Blue go down without much of a fight, but at roughly equivalent levels Lance has the most crippling weakness and is pretty much tied with Steven for the most easily swept. His HG/SS rematch is even easier to sweep as he ended up with more Pokemon that have that 4x Ice weakness.
I'd like to know why you believe that, assuming your Pokémon are not overleveled, a trainer with many Pokémon that share the same weaknesses is any easier to defeat than one with six Pokémon that all have different weaknesses, provided your team is not built specifically to counter said trainer's team by having an abnormal or unreasonable number of Pokémon that can exploit the common weaknesses in that trainer's team, and that you do not use (multiple) Max Revives or other healing items during the battle to allow yourself to use the Pokémon which exploits the trainer's weaknesses more than you would normally be able to, and ultimately allow that Pokémon to take down more of that trainer's Pokémon with super effective attacks than it should normally be able to.

quote The Deathwind
> Implying people wouldn't try to exploit a weakness as crippling as Lance's Ice weakness if they knew said weakness was possessed.
So basically, you are saying that Lance is easy to defeat if you not only know what Pokémon he will be using, let alone the fact that he is the Champion of the Indigo Plateau Pokémon League, but you also raise a team which includes multiple strong Pokémon with Ice and/or Electric-type moves up to level 46 or 50 for the sole purpose of defeating him, disregarding the efforts required and the lengths you have to go to even raise such a team in the first place, and also disregarding the fact that the player must defeat the Elite Four with the exact same team with which they intend to battle Lance, before they may even face him? No member of the Elite Four in Pokémon Gold, Silver, Crystal, HeartGold or SoulSilver specializes in the use of any type that shares the same weaknesses as Lance's team, meaning that provided you are not overleveled, tackling the Pokémon League while ensuring that your team is specialized enough so that it contains multiple Pokémon that can exploit the common weaknesses in Lance's team is most likely not even a viable strategy in the first place anyway, as you would probably have a much easier time with the Pokémon League overall if you balance your team so that it includes a reasonable number of Pokémon and moveslots that would help the team deal with Psychic-type Pokémon, and ensure that it can handle Poison-type Pokémon, Fighting-type Pokémon and Dark-type Pokémon equally well, rather than specializing your team so that a significant number of Pokémon and moves exist in it solely to exploit Lance's weakness, when Ice-type moves are generally not that useful against the Elite Four members before Lance anyway.

Even if you continue to believe that it's fine to judge a trainer's difficulty in this way, then what exactly is preventing the player from using a Pokémon with Electric-type moves against Blue's Pidgeot and Water-type Pokémon, Ice-type moves against his Grass-type Pokémon, Water-type moves against his Rhydon and Fire-type Pokémon (and if his Fire-type Pokémon is Charizard and not Arcanine, then you wouldn't even need Water-type moves, as Electric-type moves destroy Charizard while Ice-type moves take out Rhydon) and Dark-type moves (or pretty much any strong physical attack) against his Alakazam? Considering that people generally seem to prefer using versatile teams throughout the game rather than teams which heavily specialize in one area such as the use of Ice-type attacks, I believe that overall, if the possibility of exploiting a trainer's weaknesses, let alone even knowing what those weaknesses are in the first place can even be used as an argument to determine a trainer's difficulty, then Blue should be even easier to defeat than Lance, especially considering the fact that all of Blue's weaknesses are shared by many Pokémon used by the Elite Four members preceding him anyway (as Electric-type moves can be very helpful against Lorelei since four out of five of her Pokémon are weak to it, Ice-type moves are obviously very effective against Lance, Water-type moves can easily destroy Bruno's two Onix, and Dark-type moves are super effective against Agatha's three Ghost-type Pokémon), meaning that having a team which can exploit Blue's weaknesses would overall be a lot more natural for a typical player challenging the Pokémon League than one which contains multiple Pokémon with Ice-type moves just so that you can massacre Lance's entire team with super effective attacks.

In short, any trainer's team, even those belonging to the most skilled real-life trainers on Pokémon NetBattle Supremacy, Pokémon Online or Shoddy Battle can be easily defeated provided they face a team specifically designed to counter theirs, so I do not see how a team with multiple users of Ice-type moves being able to easily defeat Lance can be any indication of his strength.

quote The Deathwind
As for overall strength, if you compare the Champions in their strongest form he is still the weakest except for Wallace.

Wallace, Emerald Championship Battle: 57, 58, 55, 56, 56, 56
Lance, Heart Gold/Soul Silver Championship Rematch: 72, 72, 75, 68, 73, 68
Green/Blue, Fire Red/Leaf Green Championship Rematch: 72, 72, 73, 73, 73 75
Cynthia, Platinum Championship Rematch: 74, 74, 76, 76, 74, 78



Steven, Emerald battle in Meteor Falls: 77, 75, 76, 76, 76, 78

And for the hell of it, the overall strongest opponents of Gen 4 (and overall so far), maxed out Platinum Rival and Red.

Rival Barry/Pearl, Final Platinum Battle Frontier Rematch: 81, 79, 79, 83, 82, 85
Pokemon Trainer Red, Mt Silver Battle: 88, 84, 84, 84, 80, 82

Lance is far from the most powerful trainer, no matter what the G/S/C/HG/SS script says.
You're implying that levels alone determine a trainer's strength. Pokéfan Alex on route 13 in Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver has a level 65 Magikarp, but does this make him stronger than any of the Elite Four members in the first battle against them? If anything, I believe that the lower levels of Lance's Pokémon is to balance out the fact that his team consists of extremely powerful Pokémon, with three pseudo-legendary Pokémon in both matches, and as such his strength relative to the other Champions (other than possibly Red) becomes completely debatable.

quote The Deathwind
You can argue that he's the coolest trainer (which I would personally wouldn't), but not the strongest.
No one can argue for or against whether or not he is the coolest trainer, as that is completely subjective.



Author:   ThirteenOfTwo
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 8:17am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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Start at the beginning.

quote DragonMaster ACCLAIM
quote The Deathwind
Well, yeah, if your Pokemon are stupidly overleveled then even Cynthia and Blue go down without much of a fight, but at roughly equivalent levels Lance has the most crippling weakness and is pretty much tied with Steven for the most easily swept. His HG/SS rematch is even easier to sweep as he ended up with more Pokemon that have that 4x Ice weakness.
I'd like to know why you believe that, assuming your Pokémon are not overleveled, a trainer with many Pokémon that share the same weaknesses is any easier to defeat than one with six Pokémon that all have different weaknesses, provided your team is not built specifically to counter said trainer's team by having an abnormal or unreasonable number of Pokémon that can exploit the common weaknesses in that trainer's team, and that you do not use (multiple) Max Revives or other healing items during the battle to allow yourself to use the Pokémon which exploits the trainer's weaknesses more than you would normally be able to, and ultimately allow that Pokémon to take down more of that trainer's Pokémon with super effective attacks than it should normally be able to.
I'll tell you why--because one Choice Scarfer with Ice Beam can take out his entire team. 6-turn sweep, he never gets to attack. You don't even have to switch.
quote DragonMaster ACCLAIM
quote The Deathwind
> Implying people wouldn't try to exploit a weakness as crippling as Lance's Ice weakness if they knew said weakness was possessed.
So basically, you are saying that Lance is easy to defeat if you not only know what Pokémon he will be using, let alone the fact that he is the Champion of the Indigo Plateau Pokémon League, but you also raise a team which includes multiple strong Pokémon with Ice and/or Electric-type moves up to level 46 or 50 for the sole purpose of defeating him, disregarding the efforts required and the lengths you have to go to even raise such a team in the first place, and also disregarding the fact that the player must defeat the Elite Four with the exact same team with which they intend to battle Lance, before they may even face him? No member of the Elite Four in Pokémon Gold, Silver, Crystal, HeartGold or SoulSilver specializes in the use of any type that shares the same weaknesses as Lance's team, meaning that provided you are not overleveled, tackling the Pokémon League while ensuring that your team is specialized enough so that it contains multiple Pokémon that can exploit the common weaknesses in Lance's team is most likely not even a viable strategy in the first place anyway, as you would probably have a much easier time with the Pokémon League overall if you balance your team so that it includes a reasonable number of Pokémon and moveslots that would help the team deal with Psychic-type Pokémon, and ensure that it can handle Poison-type Pokémon, Fighting-type Pokémon and Dark-type Pokémon equally well, rather than specializing your team so that a significant number of Pokémon and moves exist in it solely to exploit Lance's weakness, when Ice-type moves are generally not that useful against the Elite Four members before Lance anyway.

Even if you continue to believe that it's fine to judge a trainer's difficulty in this way, then what exactly is preventing the player from using a Pokémon with Electric-type moves against Blue's Pidgeot and Water-type Pokémon, Ice-type moves against his Grass-type Pokémon, Water-type moves against his Rhydon and Fire-type Pokémon (and if his Fire-type Pokémon is Charizard and not Arcanine, then you wouldn't even need Water-type moves, as Electric-type moves destroy Charizard while Ice-type moves take out Rhydon) and Dark-type moves (or pretty much any strong physical attack) against his Alakazam? Considering that people generally seem to prefer using versatile teams throughout the game rather than teams which heavily specialize in one area such as the use of Ice-type attacks, I believe that overall, if the possibility of exploiting a trainer's weaknesses, let alone even knowing what those weaknesses are in the first place can even be used as an argument to determine a trainer's difficulty, then Blue should be even easier to defeat than Lance, especially considering the fact that all of Blue's weaknesses are shared by many Pokémon used by the Elite Four members preceding him anyway (as Electric-type moves can be very helpful against Lorelei since four out of five of her Pokémon are weak to it, Ice-type moves are obviously very effective against Lance, Water-type moves can easily destroy Bruno's two Onix, and Dark-type moves are super effective against Agatha's three Ghost-type Pokémon), meaning that having a team which can exploit Blue's weaknesses would overall be a lot more natural for a typical player challenging the Pokémon League than one which contains multiple Pokémon with Ice-type moves just so that you can massacre Lance's entire team with super effective attacks.

In short, any trainer's team, even those belonging to the most skilled real-life trainers on Pokémon NetBattle Supremacy, Pokémon Online or Shoddy Battle can be easily defeated provided they face a team specifically designed to counter theirs, so I do not see how a team with multiple users of Ice-type moves being able to easily defeat Lance can be any indication of his strength.
It's easier because you need one move. If any reasonably leveled Pokemon on your team has an Ice-type move you can sweep Lance easily. You don't need to design your team around his at all--at least in order to combat Blue's weaknesses you need to switch. It surprises me that you wrote an essay-length post and somehow don't get this.



Author:   Insanity Prevails
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 8:48am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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I can't believe I read all that, but credit to you for putting up such an impressive resistance.

I really don't think there is any merit in defending Lance's initial champion team. There isn't really that significant of a gap between player levels and his levels first time around and I'm sure everyone is packing an ice beam or two to nuke those dragonites. It really doesn't help that those same pokemon rely heavily on lower accuracy moves like dragon rush and thunder.

The rematch dragons really depends. I'm sure they can survive an equal level ice beam to the face if fired from a non-ice type or a pokemon with crap sp. atk, but yeah a decently fast (or scarfed, as suggested) strong ice type would smash through all four by itself with stab ice beams.

quote ThirteenOfTwo
6-turn sweep, he never gets to attack. You don't even have to switch.
I'm sure you'd switch for Gyarados and Charizard, though one has a crippling electric weakness and the other never seems all that scary to begin with. =\




Author:   Squiggle
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 9:31am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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quote Insanity Prevails
I'm sure you'd switch for Gyarados and Charizard, though one has a crippling electric weakness and the other never seems all that scary to begin with. =\
Actually the least amount of times you'd have to switch out is once, considering all of his Pokemon except Garchomp are weak to Rock.
Though it is less common it's still a tactic.



Author:   DragonMaster ACCLAIM
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 9:49am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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You say that the gap between the levels of the player's Pokémon and the levels of Lance's Pokémon in the first battle against him is not that significant. However, I actually believe that at the point in the game in which the player reaches the Pokémon League, the gap between the levels of the Elite Four's Pokémon and the levels of the player's Pokémon in Gold, Silver, Crystal, HeartGold and SoulSilver is actually greater than that same gap in all the other Pokémon games. I'm not sure if I played through the game too quickly or anything, but in my playthrough of Pokémon HeartGold, I only raised three Pokémon, and ensured that I battled every single trainer on every route and in every dungeon in Johto, yet by the time I reached the Pokémon League, all three of my Pokémon's levels were only at about 40. This tells me that if one were to actually play through the game using six Pokémon, they would actually need to do quite a lot of level grinding in order to actually match the levels of Lance's Pokémon.

quote ThirteenOfTwo
I'll tell you why--because one Choice Scarfer with Ice Beam can take out his entire team. 6-turn sweep, he never gets to attack. You don't even have to switch.
Except there is no easy method to obtain a Choice Scarf prior to defeating the Pokémon League in Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver. Not only that, but you are also assuming that the player is familiar enough with the Pokémon world and wise enough to go out of their way to obtain a Choice Scarf specifically to sweep Lance's team, while at the same time even knowing what Lance's weakness is (or the fact that he is even the Pokémon League Champion before battling him).

quote ThirteenOfTwo
It's easier because you need one move. If any reasonably leveled Pokemon on your team has an Ice-type move you can sweep Lance easily. You don't need to design your team around his at all--at least in order to combat Blue's weaknesses you need to switch. It surprises me that you wrote an essay-length post and somehow don't get this.
By claiming that one Pokémon with one Ice-type move is enough to defeat Lance, you must be making one of the following claims:

1. That your Pokémon can consistently take down Lance's Pokémon with Ice-type moves before they even get the chance to retaliate.
2. That your Pokémon can easily and consistently shrug off the incredibly powerful and versatile attacks of Lance's dragon Pokémon, or at least take minimal damage from them, while being able to strike back hard with Ice-type attacks.
3. That you are using healing items such as Max Revives or Full Restores to ensure that your Pokémon with an Ice-type move can survive longer than it would normally be able to, or keep fighting even after it's been knocked out the first time.

In the first two situations, you would be either overleveled, or have a Pokémon which would be difficult or unlikely, if not impossible to obtain at the point in the game in which you battle Lance (and by saying this, any Pokémon holding a Choice Scarf are included). In the third situation, I don't see how constantly needing to heal one's Pokémon isn't a greater form of difficulty than needing to switch, especially if the battle mode is set to "SHIFT" rather than "SET" (and if your argument involves going out of one's way to obtain a Choice Scarf before battling Lance, then I don't see how this simple change in the battle mode can be anywhere near unreasonable).



Author:   Insanity Prevails
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 10:34am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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Dunno but my team of 6 was only a few levels under Lance's Lv50 dragonite when I reached him and it's not as if I purposely ran off to level grind. Unlike in Diamond where my team was significantly lower in levels than Cynthia's team which forced me to grind some and most of her team don't have dual weaknesses (though some do, just not as many as Lance's). Not to mention that damn Spiritomb of hers, which isn't anywhere near as frustrating as Karen's but still mucks things up with its "no weaknesses unless you make fighting moves hit" thing.



Author:   Tf916
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 10:44am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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I usually have a dragonite before i even face the elite 4 and usually sweep the whole thing with 3 pokemon.



Author:   Cucurbita
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 11:04am (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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Jeebus.

Listen, no matter if you're a fan of Lance or not, you have to admit that he does indeed sport a glaring weakness to ice moves. Anyone who specialises in a single type will have this problem. Mono-teams is a bad strategic move no matter how you look at it.

As for arguing wether or not levels alone determine a trainers strength; No. No they don't. Strategy does as well. Even so, levels are good indicators on the general

As already stated, mono-types is a bad strategic move, even if dragons are good both offensive and defensive. His pokemon are also lower leveled than the other champions except for RSEs.

Let's compare to Cynthia.

Versatile team and an extremely good strategy. Spiritomb is a hell of an annoying waller, flinchhax Togekiss is a pain and then there's that blasted Garchomp. THE highest leveled pokémon of all champions.

So with those easy arguements we can determine that Cynthia has a better strategy and is such a better trainer.

Now... you've been grabbing at straws. The E4 before the champion has nothing to do with the champions own strength. Neither does the region he resides in. The only thing that matters is the champion and his pokémon.



Author:   DragonMaster ACCLAIM
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 12:33pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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quote Cucurbita
Jeebus.

Listen, no matter if you're a fan of Lance or not, you have to admit that he does indeed sport a glaring weakness to ice moves.
When was this denied?

quote Cucurbita
Anyone who specialises in a single type will have this problem. Mono-teams is a bad strategic move no matter how you look at it.
Care to explain why this is the case?

quote Cucurbita
As for arguing wether or not levels alone determine a trainers strength; No. No they don't. Strategy does as well. Even so, levels are good indicators on the general
Yes.

quote Cucurbita
As already stated, mono-types is a bad strategic move, even if dragons are good both offensive and defensive.
Care to explain why this is the case?

quote Cucurbita
His pokemon are also lower leveled than the other champions except for RSEs.
quote Cucurbita
As for arguing wether or not levels alone determine a trainers strength; No. No they don't.
quote Cucurbita
Let's compare to Cynthia.

Versatile team and an extremely good strategy. Spiritomb is a hell of an annoying waller, flinchhax Togekiss is a pain and then there's that blasted Garchomp. THE highest leveled pokémon of all champions.

So with those easy arguements we can determine that Cynthia has a better strategy and is such a better trainer.
You do realize that Cynthia's Togekiss has Hustle as its ability, and not Serene Grace, right? Without Serene Grace, I cannot see the "flinchhax" from any Togekiss's Air Slash being as much of a pain as you claim, unless you are extremely unlucky. Also, anyone can name the roles that the Pokémon of a certain trainer play, but the fact that they play such roles says nothing about the difficulty of the trainer who uses those Pokémon.

quote Cucurbita
Now... you've been grabbing at straws. The E4 before the champion has nothing to do with the champions own strength. Neither does the region he resides in. The only thing that matters is the champion and his pokémon.
The strength of a trainer and their Pokémon is directly related to the strengths and weaknesses of their potential opponents, and such is obviously to be expected in a world in which all Pokémon have clearly defined advantages and disadvantages against each other in battle. The stronger Grass-type Pokémon become overall, the weaker Water-type Pokémon become overall, relative to other Pokémon, and thus the stronger Fire-type Pokémon generally become, and the strength of Grass-type Pokémon is in turn inversely proportional to the strength of Fire-type Pokémon, even if these changes in strength are not absolute. Of course they are not, since the strength of a Pokémon cannot be measured in absolute terms - they can only be relative to other Pokémon that exist, and the same principle applies to trainers or teams. Red is generally considered to be one of the strongest in-game trainers in the world of Pokémon. But if one day, every single other trainer in the Pokémon world raises a team which completely counters Red's team, would Red be as strong as he once was? After all, he and his team did not change in the slightest way. Only his potential opponents did.

What defines a strong trainer then? Is it the ability to win battles, or at the very least the ability to give a difficult challenge to anyone who can defeat such a trainer in a battle? If so, then who and what does the trainer battle against? What Pokémon should be expected to be used by the opponent of said trainer? Should such Pokémon be the very monsters that are capable of exploiting the greatest weaknesses of the trainer's team? Should such Pokémon be chosen completely at random, with each Pokémon having an equal chance of earning a spot on the team of the trainer's opponent? Or should they be the Pokémon the trainer is most likely to face, judging by how popular or unpopular certain Pokémon are, meaning that a team which performs well against popular Pokémon but poorly against Pokémon that are not used very often, is stronger than one which performs well against underused Pokémon, but poorly against those that are overused? To be more practical, would the trainer's opponent be using an "average", "standard" or "typical" team, with the definition of such being once again based on the popularity of Pokémon? Or should the trainer's strength be tested by their performance against "the strongest team objectively in existence", if such a team even exists? Furthermore, how skilled or knowledgeable should the trainer's opponent be expected to be? Would the opponent not even know the basic laws of the Pokémon universe, such as the fact that Ice-type moves are super effective against Dragon-type Pokémon, or would they have mastered every aspect of Pokémon battling? As long as we cannot share a common view on what "strength" means, then it seems that we are unlikely to ever come to an agreement in this discussion.



Author:   Squiggle
Date:   Sep 27, 10 at 12:55pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Best/Most Powerful Champion
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Come on people, this arguing is silly.
You've proven your points, now let's all just move on.


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