Neoseeker.com Forum Thread: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn - page 9

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original thread: http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/45610/t1751710-off-topic-gd-ii-nobody-has-cool-hat-as-caitlyn/9.htm


Author:   Marc
Date:   Aug 28, 12 at 12:05pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote WakeCraterWind
[quote=Marc|message:33469523]
On the other hand, while DotA is improving, with their tutorials and such it still requires a large base knowledge of the game to be proficient at it beforehand. Especially since all champions are free at the start, new players will most definitely be overwhelmed by the amount of knowledge that they are expected by the game and community before hand.

Oh, playing against Invoker? Got killed for no reason from across the map (Exort x3)? Didn't memorize all ten of his abilities, along with the other four abilities of all other 89 heroes? And their common builds? And in the next game any player can choose anyone? GL bro.

This I argue is an even larger barrier to play than any rune or mastery page ever could be.



LoL players, especially new ones, can focus in on the weekly rotation of free champions in the comfort that probably won't run into some completely unknown champion, and even if they do, they'll still learn a lot, because the community won't be raging at them so hard because that same noob missed his CC.
I do agree that DOTA can be overwhelming for some people. I couldn't imagine how I could play some of the heroes without looking at guides or whatever and some people are not appealed by that.

But yeah 2 different games 2 different flavors. LoL just takes ALOT from DOTA so the games can be compared rather easily. There is no reason why you can't play both though.



Author:   Tashur Astur
Date:   Aug 28, 12 at 12:08pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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Anything you can get for money that helps you in the game (ie boosts) are just what they say on the label, they are BOOSTS, so you don't get ANY advantage other than getting faster to the destination which is level 30 with full rune pages. The point is, boosts are only really good if you want to start a new account for whatever reason, or if you are simply impatient. You gain no advantage whatsoever by purchasing Riot Points.

Finally bear in mind that you need level 20 for tier 3 runes.



Author:   WakeCraterWind
Date:   Aug 28, 12 at 1:31pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote Marc
quote WakeCraterWind
[quote=Marc|message:33469523]
On the other hand, while DotA is improving, with their tutorials and such it still requires a large base knowledge of the game to be proficient at it beforehand. Especially since all champions are free at the start, new players will most definitely be overwhelmed by the amount of knowledge that they are expected by the game and community before hand.

Oh, playing against Invoker? Got killed for no reason from across the map (Exort x3)? Didn't memorize all ten of his abilities, along with the other four abilities of all other 89 heroes? And their common builds? And in the next game any player can choose anyone? GL bro.

This I argue is an even larger barrier to play than any rune or mastery page ever could be.



LoL players, especially new ones, can focus in on the weekly rotation of free champions in the comfort that probably won't run into some completely unknown champion, and even if they do, they'll still learn a lot, because the community won't be raging at them so hard because that same noob missed his CC.
I do agree that DOTA can be overwhelming for some people. I couldn't imagine how I could play some of the heroes without looking at guides or whatever and some people are not appealed by that.

But yeah 2 different games 2 different flavors. LoL just takes ALOT from DOTA so the games can be compared rather easily. There is no reason why you can't play both though.
I think we can both agree, though, that even if LoL takes a LOT from DotA, that's absolutely NOTHING compared to what HoN ripped off. I don't know why, but seeing every last one of Lightning Reverant's abilities, my favorite hero, get carbon-copied into HoN pissed me off to no end.



Author:   BluAnimal
Date:   Aug 28, 12 at 1:35pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote the_FAMAS_pro
BluAnimal Sorry, kind of a newbie to Jax (Level 23 )
I just find a build i'm comfortable with, and go with that, not knowing if it's wrong or right or just 'situational'. All right then, tomorrow, i play as Jax again.

I don't know why people call Rengar 'under-powered'. He is just amazing, and fun to play. Whenever i see a Rengar on the enemy team, i place wards in every bush. Don't want to get ambushed now, would we.
I'll try and dig up my old guide, it was #3 on Mobafire before trolls got to it.
Edit: http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/bluanimals-guide-to-jax-220328

This message was edited on 2012-08-28T13:47:55-07:00.



Author:   Chaosfire
Date:   Aug 28, 12 at 3:28pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote Marc
Okay well it still manages to annoy the shit out of me. Like I said I think the whole system is just a pain in the ass than anything. Just busy work stuff you do in the menus. For me its all about the gameplay.
I think you've just shot yourself in the foot. Your orignal opinion was DOTA was the all around better game because of its depth, now you only stand by it for the gameplay, which is an experience, and can differ between each person. Any game can be fun because of gameplay.



Author:   Marc
Date:   Aug 28, 12 at 3:53pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote Chaosfire
quote Marc
Okay well it still manages to annoy the shit out of me. Like I said I think the whole system is just a pain in the ass than anything. Just busy work stuff you do in the menus. For me its all about the gameplay.
I think you've just shot yourself in the foot. Your orignal opinion was DOTA was the all around better game because of its depth, now you only stand by it for the gameplay, which is an experience, and can differ between each person. Any game can be fun because of gameplay.
The GAMEPLAY is in depth, there are no skill trees or runes to *bleep* around with.When you start a game everything you do to build your character is done inside the game which is why I like it. There is nothing comparable to masteries and runes in the DOTA menu. DOTA has the starting bans/picks and from then on its all gameplay. No diddling yourself and reading skill trees for the hero your "maining" (oh god I'm going to be sick) in the menus.

Thats why we play moba not Diablo or WoW where i find it acceptable to build skill trees for my one character. That side of ARPG should not be present in moba's where you are playing many.



Author:   Chaosfire
Date:   Aug 28, 12 at 4:40pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote Marc
quote Chaosfire
quote Marc
Okay well it still manages to annoy the shit out of me. Like I said I think the whole system is just a pain in the ass than anything. Just busy work stuff you do in the menus. For me its all about the gameplay.
I think you've just shot yourself in the foot. Your orignal opinion was DOTA was the all around better game because of its depth, now you only stand by it for the gameplay, which is an experience, and can differ between each person. Any game can be fun because of gameplay.
The GAMEPLAY is in depth, there are no skill trees or runes to *bleep* around with.When you start a game everything you do to build your character is done inside the game which is why I like it. There is nothing comparable to masteries and runes in the DOTA menu. DOTA has the starting bans/picks and from then on its all gameplay. No diddling yourself and reading skill trees for the hero your "maining" (oh god I'm going to be sick) in the menus.

Thats why we play moba not Diablo or WoW where i find it acceptable to build skill trees for my one character. That side of ARPG should not be present in moba's where you are playing many.
Out of the thousands of people I've seen play or stream, nobody in competetive play seriously plays a single champion. NOBODY.
Care to elaborate how DOTA gameplay is more complex? Godmode: Don't bring up active items, items are just as important in league, certain passive items hold more weight on certain champions then active ones do. As an example, A champion called Galio's ultimate is an area of effect taunt, forcing all enemy champions hit to attack galio, this synergizes well with an item called Randuins omen, because it provides tanky stats, and it has a chance to slow enemies who attack you, it's active provides the slow in a large area. When your taunt is over, whoever's been afflicted with the slow is severely crippled. Just an example of a strategy using an item.
Elder god mode: Don't talk about team synergy, LoL has that too,
Gabe Newel Elder god mode: Don't talk about counterpicks and meta.



Author:   Marc
Date:   Aug 28, 12 at 5:02pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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The single fact that you are not able to play all the champions in LoL encourages playing a single hero for a good amount of time. I see it all the time.

Herp derp tell me how Dota is harder without mentioning gameplay, counter picking, team synergy, and the gigantic meta game. In other words tell me how dota is harder without actually talking about why dota is harder. Also that ability your talking about with galio sounds awfully familiar to axes ability and the passive item sounds alot like a Lich ability but we all know LoL takes abilities from DOTA heros.

But I'll bite. secret shops required to finish recipes adds more interaction with the map. Couriers necessary to bring items to you while laning doesn't slow down the pace of the game. And another HUGE THING, there are things like destructible trees, elevation, a more dynamic field of vision and fog of war (that is affected by trees and other obstacles), day and night cycle, creep pulling, creep stacking, ward blocking, denying, etc. In League of Legends all you have is a bunch of brush that you run in and out of.

Elder god mode? I know its hard to think the game you play is more casual and instantly self satisfying than another, but if you're serious about MOBA playing and want to continue to grow and learn than you just have to switch over to DOTA. I've said it, people in this thread who love LoL more than Dota have said it, go play 100 games of DOTA and then come back and talk.

This message was edited on 2012-08-28T17:15:15-07:00.



Author:   Chaosfire
Date:   Aug 28, 12 at 6:00pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote Marc
The single fact that you are not able to play all the champions in LoL encourages playing a single hero for a good amount of time. I see it all the time.

Herp derp tell me how Dota is harder without mentioning gameplay, counter picking, team synergy, and the gigantic meta game. In other words tell me how dota is harder without actually talking about why dota is harder. Also that ability your talking about with galio sounds awfully familiar to axes ability and the passive item sounds alot like a Lich ability but we all know LoL takes abilities from DOTA heros.

But I'll bite. secret shops required to finish recipes adds more interaction with the map. Couriers necessary to bring items to you while laning doesn't slow down the pace of the game. And another HUGE THING, there are things like destructible trees, elevation, a more dynamic field of vision and fog of war (that is affected by trees and other obstacles), day and night cycle, creep pulling, creep stacking, ward blocking, denying, etc. In League of Legends all you have is a bunch of brush that you run in and out of.

Elder god mode? I know its hard to think the game you play is more casual and instantly self satisfying than another, but if you're serious about MOBA playing and want to continue to grow and learn than you just have to switch over to DOTA. I've said it, people in this thread who love LoL more than Dota have said it, go play 100 games of DOTA and then come back and talk.
quote Marc
The single fact that you are not able to play all the champions in LoL encourages playing a single hero for a good amount of time. I see it all the time.
Free weeks, the unlock system, etc.
So what you're telling me is that you're extremely close minded. I'm pretty sure that the first musician needs to sue everyone else for copying his idea. I mean come on, songs are pretty original, what gives everyone else the right to copy that idea.
You can't say that DOTA is harder because it has the exact same concepts that you believe are superior.
Would you like to know why LoL appears casual? Because Riot is a business. They need to make the game appealing for people to want to get into it, and buy skins and stuff because they enjoy champions. For a serious player, the game has a very active Competitive community if you get to that level of play.
This discussion is really getting nowhere.
I'm gonna say this as a closer, from someone that's played a far bit of the original DOTA, and a decent amount of games in DOTA 2, the game isn't bad. If it was fine tuned, I'd play it more. If Dota is that good, I will go play 100 games. However, I have so many games in LoL because it's fun. I like playing, and I love watching tournaments, especially foreign tournaments because the meta is so much different across the world.



Author:   Marc
Date:   Aug 28, 12 at 7:00pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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Yes I agree this is going nowhere. Its not like I'm trying to hold you in a submissive lock and force you to say Dota is more complex/hard/in-depth howhever you wanna say it. Play what you want and enjoy it. I do think I brought up some good points and I do think everybody should give DOTA a chance.

So long, farewell. Don't quote me or I'll be back to haunt you like the ghost from christmas past.

This message was edited on 2012-08-28T19:13:48-07:00.



Author:   WakeCraterWind
Date:   Aug 29, 12 at 7:29am (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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Oh come now Marc, it's not like DotA doesn't have its share of archaic mechanics that only hardcore fanboys would cling to now. A big one is the loss on gold on death, which in hindsight, is like a massive extra kick in the teeth. It doesn't do anything but make the game snowball even harder and make the game practically pointless in the end.

Does that mean an early kill is worth less in LoL? Yes. But it is always significant enough to give you a serious advantage over your opponent, without turning the game past 20 minutes into a faceroll.
Yes, it does mean that a team down nine kills can pull a comeback victory, but it won;t ever be BS, you know why?. Because they'll only ever manage to pull that off if YOUR team missteps in the end.



Author:   Tashur Astur
Date:   Aug 29, 12 at 7:29am (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lTfufr3tAc&feature=g-all-u

If you have time check it out, I messed up twice and died twice, very close game though and worth watching. Disregard the trashtalking LOL, this is SOLOQ!



Author:   Inuyasha
Date:   Aug 29, 12 at 10:47am (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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Y U NO FLASH ON YOUR FIRST DEATH?!

Pretty good game otherwise, although I'd never agree with an Archangel's on anyone except Ryze late game. Athene's outclasses it, especially with the AP they had on their team.




Author:   Marc
Date:   Aug 29, 12 at 11:53am (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote WakeCraterWind
Oh come now Marc, it's not like DotA doesn't have its share of archaic mechanics that only hardcore fanboys would cling to now. A big one is the loss on gold on death, which in hindsight, is like a massive extra kick in the teeth. It doesn't do anything but make the game snowball even harder and make the game practically pointless in the end.

Does that mean an early kill is worth less in LoL? Yes. But it is always significant enough to give you a serious advantage over your opponent, without turning the game past 20 minutes into a faceroll.
Yes, it does mean that a team down nine kills can pull a comeback victory, but it won;t ever be BS, you know why?. Because they'll only ever manage to pull that off if YOUR team missteps in the end.
I wouldn't say that particular mechanic is outdated at all. Losing gold on death definitely adds a component of the game I enjoy, because even if you fed like a decent amount (0-6 or something) you can go out and farm a bit or participate in some ganks and you will be back in the game and can properly build your character with the extra bit of gold. I play competitively in tournaments with a bunch of bros and we usually find that a fed hero will get ahead of himself at some point in the game. The bigger the tree that harder it falls too because there are X2, X3, X4 the gold bonus of killing somebody with a killstreak. Just don't let an UBER HARD SUPER CARRY like AM go like 20-0 because hes just going butterfly, and battlefury and thats game.

Feeding is definitely taken more seriously in public games which might lead into a bunch of brazilians yelling at you. On the other hand most of my games are 50 minutes plus, and I play on pub servers. I also play on clan servers or with friends and those games can be over two hours long because everybody is just playing there characters flawlessly.



Author:   WakeCraterWind
Date:   Aug 29, 12 at 1:31pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote Marc
I play competitively in tournaments with a bunch of bros and we usually find that a fed hero will get ahead of himself at some point in the game. The bigger the tree that harder it falls too because there are X2, X3, X4 the gold bonus of killing somebody with a killstreak.
There are killstreak-breaking bonuses in LoL, too.

quote Marc
Losing gold on death definitely adds a component of the game I enjoy, because even if you fed like a decent amount (0-6 or something) you can go out and farm a bit or participate in some ganks and you will be back in the game and can properly build your character with the extra bit of gold.
Wait, wait, wait, explain to me how losing half your gold SIX times keeps you even remotely useful in the game? It's difficult enough to get back in the game in LoL, and that's with all of your gold still intact. Remember, during those six deaths you've also lost farm and exp gain time, not to mention the guy you're laning against, whose is not only 6 kills ahead, but also has been free-farming since then. Surely the safest way to get back into the game is to farm, but once laning phase is over, WHERE do you have the time?! If you're solo farming, then what little CC you still had is now totally useless because you're on the other side of the map when a fight breaks out.

If I'm up against a team in LoL, and an enemy is 0-6-(some low number), we're going to be pushing towers, killing Dragon, taking objectives, and pretty much kicking the essentially 4 v 5 enemy team's butt all the way home. As long as we don't screw up, its game. (something I like in LoL, the enemy team is rarely completely out for the count) I haven't played that much DotA since years ago, but I imagine it's been the same since then.



By the way, how's good 'ol Razor doing? The last time i played DotA was when his ultimate was still that passive AoE. I remember those good times when I would buy Radiance and essentially AFK push the lane.


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