Neoseeker.com Forum Thread: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn - page 6

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Author:   the_FAMAS_pro
Date:   Aug 26, 12 at 7:40am (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote BluAnimal
So I finally bought Cassiopeia and my first game I laned against a Malzahar, did pretty good for the match up, ended 5/7 because of a fed bot lane. Next game I went 3/4, lost because of a DC. Finally third game I went 11/4 and scored my first pentakill ever! And then won that. Then 4th game was with another 4 friends and I wrecked a Katarina mid.

So far I really like her. Definitely the skill cap I was looking for. I have a feeling she's going to be very deadly in my hands within a month.
Nice one Scoring a penta is just awesome, right? (0% sarcasm) I'm not really interested in Cass, but from what i've heard, read, and seen she might just be the next i champ i'll pick up.

I've scored 3 pentas, but those were pretty much luck. I have 5 other pentas, but those were only in Co-op vs. AI matches. all 3 were with Fiora.

Day 2 of playing as Fiora. So far, i'm dominating. I'm an unstoppable force, my R shreds the enemy team to ribbons, Q+E combo mops up the rest.



Also a game where i scored 20/9/13. But we lost



Author:   BluAnimal
Date:   Aug 26, 12 at 9:25am (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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Very nice. Fiora isn't my kind of champ, especially cause my number one champion is her best counter. As for Cass I just wanted someone with really high skill cap and then I realized I have like. 4 mid champs. And I needed a female champion, it was a total sausage fest in my champion roster.



Author:   the_FAMAS_pro
Date:   Aug 26, 12 at 4:34pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote BluAnimal
And I needed a female champion, it was a total sausage fest in my champion roster.
What? my roster is like an all-girls party. Kat, Kayle, Ahri, Fiora, Shyvanna, Ashe, Irelia...and so much more.
My males are only Trynd, Darius, Rengar..



Author:   BluAnimal
Date:   Aug 26, 12 at 5:21pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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Alistar, Gangplank, Garen, Jarvan, Jax, Karthus, Kassadin, Malphite, Master Yi, Mordekaiser, Nasus, Nautilus, Olaf, Pantheon, Rammus, Renekton, Rumble, Singed, Talon, Taric, Teemo, Udyr, Warwick, Wukong, Xerath, Xin Zhao, Ziggs

Annie, Anivia, Ashe, Cassiopeia, Kayle, Leona, Sivir, Sona, Soraka, Tristana

Eh, I guess that's what I get for playing primarily top lane



Author:   Marc
Date:   Aug 26, 12 at 10:01pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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Chaosfire

DOTA is widely recognized to be the more in depth game of the two(notice how I don't say more "hardcore" or "hard"). There are dozens of reasons why ranging from ability to deny creeps to counter picking(actually being able to choose from all THE heroes at anytime, without having to worry about a week old new hero being imbalanced)

Another thing and a big one, Most items in LoL are all passive skills like +100hp regen, +50Strength or whatever. Most items in DOTA2 are active items such as the blink dagger(tele) or mek or Force staff. For example a rather intermidiate/simple player build for supprt Tidehunter requires all 3 of those items and it adds almost 3 more spells to your inventory on top of your other 3 spells(not counting his passive). Like you NEED your blink to land his gamebreaking ult, Ravage. This makes a character like simple tidehunter more interactive than your difficult LoL hero.

Most characters absolutely require these extra CC items and are absolutely necessary to play DOTA heroes properly. It adds 100000X more customization to building your character, LoL doesn't have these options. Not only are you comboing with other players and their skills but your CC items and your teams CC items. This adds that whole level of play that you just can't get out of LoL.

This isn't a bad thing at all that LoL doesn't have this, it seperates the games, 2 different flavors. If you enjoy not worrying about active items and extra CC spells and rather just focus on improving your abilities, play LoL. I for one just like the extra layer of items so I play DOTA. Thats not the only reason I just think the characters are cooler but thats a whole other story.

quote
Once again, Champions in LoL aren't quite as... Strong as in DOTA. There isn't a single instance where a champion from LoL could 1v5 on even grounds with the enemy team. Note the keyword, even grounds. I've gotten a 4 kills by diving into the enemy team as Sand King. 1v4. I wasn't ahead, I had a *bleep*ing blink dagger and some tango. Lets compare this to a similar champion in League, Fiddlesticks. The similarity in question is their ultimate ability, they channel, then leap and deal massive area of effect damage for a period. If I were to dive into the enemy team 1v4 without a defensive item such as the Zhonya's Hourglass, I would be killed within 3 seconds. What I'm getting at here is LoL is much more reliant on other people for making big plays. Once again, both games have variables. This is a generalization.
Wut. So LoL heroes are... Weaker? Charging in on a 1v4 is suicide in both games. you must have been playing against some awful people. Thanks for telling me the secret to playing DOTA, turns out all I need to do is play SK and get a blink, couple tangos and just charge into the enemy team and just automatically get a rampage! Jee *bleep*ing Willikers, now that I'm invincible in DOTA I can play LoL!
..Might want to try explaining what your getting at again because I'm not following you, are you saying there no gamebreaking spells in LoL??

quote Phoenixmon
From the sounds of things DotA's days are over as top dog, and LoL has completely overtaken it.
Valve, beta, not out yet, going to be free to play, steam, yaddy yadda. That is all.



Author:   Chaosfire
Date:   Aug 26, 12 at 10:04pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote BluAnimal
Very nice. Fiora isn't my kind of champ, especially cause my number one champion is her best counter.
Who?




quote Marc
DOTA is widely recognized to be the more in depth game of the two(notice how I don't say more "hardcore" or "hard").
I was going to make a very rude comment, but you have the professionalism to use a different term and I respect you for that.
Here's where I disagree.
DOTA has 3 base attributes you need to worry about, most champions can only be played speccing into 1.
Lol has 103 heroes to this date, as opposed to Dota's 90 or so, I know this point doesn't seem valid, but more heroes means more counter options, which means more complex gameplay.
Lets say champion A is quite strong, everyone wants to play him now because of that strength, then, someone realizes that champion B wins against champion A, despite champion B's more blatent weaknesses against other popular Champions. Then, people start playing champion B more and more, because they have figured out a way to beat the strong seeming champion A. When everyone is sick of seeing champion B in every game, they find a figurative Champion C to cope with champion B, etcetera, etcetera.
As with all games, there's a certain undefined rule-set or strategy known as the meta-game, which is a strategy proven to be efficient and successful. An example of LoL metagame is a solo Champion in the middle lane that Generally scales very well with experience and gold, a solo Champion top lane who also scales well with experience and gold, a "jungler" archetype who roams around the map, clearing neutral monsters for gold and experience, and helping other lanes out to give them an advantage over the enemy. The junglers generally don't need a whole lot of gold or experience to be effective, and the gold and experience they gain are just bonuses. Junglers also generally very sustained, have a lot of crowd control such as stuns, or clear the jungle faster than their opponents to put the enemy jungler behind. In the bottom lane, There is generally an AD carry, (Someone with massive sustained damage late game, but needs a lot of gold to get to that godlike lategame) and a support to help the AD carry either get kills, or stay in lane longer. It's the Supports job to basically assist the carry. Support champions generally need little to no income to be effective as well, providing sustain such as a heal or mana replenish, or crowd control such as stuns or slows.
One of the most fun aspects of league is getting ahead of the meta in a way that works for you, while still being productive, such as having a capable AD carry in a solo lane, and running two "bruiser" champions who synergise well together against the enemy support/AD carry to deny the carry farm. Of course, there are many, many other variations of the meta, these were just examples.




quote Marc
without having to worry about a week old new hero being imbalanced
Not that it would matter if they were imbalanced anyway, I don't recall a DOTA 2 patch concerning balance to the date.





quote Marc
Another thing and a big one, Most items in LoL are all passive skills like +100hp regen, +50Strength or whatever. Most items in DOTA2 are active items such as the blink dagger(tele) or mek or Force staff. For example a rather intermidiate/simple player build for supprt Tidehunter requires all 3 of those items and it adds almost 3 more spells to your inventory on top of your other 3 spells(not counting his passive). Like you NEED your blink to land his gamebreaking ult, Ravage. This makes a character like simple tidehunter more interactive than your difficult LoL hero.
Here's my rebuttle:
Another thing and a big one, The majority of Items in DOTA are all passive skills like +100hp regen, +50Strength or whatever. This is also the case for league, while league may not have as many active items, they still exist and are extremely useful.
League has a few features of further strategy such as Runes, Masteries, and "Summoner Spells." Every match each champion is allowed 2 summoner spells, purely active abilities with varitating utility and benefits. Notable spells are ones like Flash, Ignite, Ghost, Teleport, and Heal. Flash's active is that your champion blinks instantly to where your cursor targets, similar to blink dagger, except it doesn't use mana and is on a larger cooldown. Ignite places a debuff on your target which does a small amount of true damage (Damage that cannot be negated by defenses) and reduces healing on the target by 50%. Ghost allows the user to ignore unit collision and gain a large speedboost for the duration. Teleport teleports your champion to any friendly structure or minion on the map. Heal's activation is a burst heal in an area around the activator, restoring 50% of the base heal to nearby allies. Of course, there are many more summoner spells, which are all actives too, these are just examples.
Runes and masteries are bonus stats that every champion can spec into to give yourself an advantage over your oponent. A champion laning against a Garen may want to invest in armor, or movement speed, a mana hungry champion may want to invest in mana regeneration, a jungler may want to invest in buff duration, armor, or attack speed, depending on the champion, each game in a draft mode pick requires you to think your runes and masteries through.
With that said;
For example a rather intermidiate/simple player build for tank/support Galio requires items with active like Shurelia's Reverie, and Randuin's Omen for the utility and synergry with his spells they provide him. Those items add 2 more spells, and another 2 summonder spells add 4 more spells to his current arsenal of 4 spells and a passive. Like you NEED your Flash to land his gamebreaking ult, "Idol of Durand". This makes a character like simple Galio more interactive than your difficult Dota hero.



quote Marc
LoL doesn't have these options. Not only are you comboing with other players and their skills but your CC items and your teams CC items. This adds that whole level of play that you just can't get out of LoL.
I'm not trying to be rude, but are we talking about the same game? Lol has so many viable and strong champion combinations it's not even funny. Every duo lane in mid to high level play is picked with synergy in mind. An example is the classic Graves and Soraka. Graves has a strong poking ability called buckshot that is very easy to use and land, but the high mana cost and his low mana pool hold him back. Laning with a champion who can restore his mana like Soraka make him dominate the lane. Here's where what I said before about countering comes in. Since you'll be knowing that Graves will be spamming buckshot, You may wan't to have a support such as Taric, who provides an aura granting armor to reduce the damage, He can also heal back the damage done, another solution would be to call for Jungler ganks, considering that Graves' buckshot will push the lane, making for easy ganks.
And there are counter counter measures that Soraka and Graves could take to prevent that from happening, etcetera, etcetera.
You'll see alot of jungler's try to synergize with the solo lane champs as well, to have effective ganks and teamfights. A strong combination I saw in a recent tournament is a great example. The champion's Shyvanna and Lulu. The outcome came close to something that a different jungler provided, malphite. Malphite's ultimate ability is a dash that knocks everyone in a radius around him into the air. This is a great initiating ability. Malphite has his weaknesses, like his slow jungling speed, and his lackluster ganks without the use of his ultimate ability. Shyvanna is a very fast jungler who deals great damage. She specializes in taking the enemies jungle buffs and camps before they can, putting their jungler behind. If she takes a summoner spell called exhaust, her ganks can be very deadly aswell. Shyvanna's causes her to desend into her dragon from, making her leap forward and knock everyone back. Lulu's ultimate causes her target to gain bonus Health, and grow, knocking everyone in an area into the air. When shyvanna ulted into the enemy team, with a Lulu ult following, The result was a giant dragon with a large amount of health knocking your team up.
Just an example of champion synergy.



quote Marc
This adds that whole level of play that you just can't get out of LoL.
See above.


quote Marc
Wut. So LoL heroes are... Weaker? Charging in on a 1v4 is suicide in both games. you must have been playing against some awful people. Thanks for telling me the secret to playing DOTA, turns out all I need to do is play SK and get a blink, couple tangos and just charge into the enemy team and just automatically get a rampage! Jee *bleep*ing Willikers, now that I'm invincible in DOTA I can play LoL!
..Might want to try explaining what your getting at again because I'm not following you, are you saying there no gamebreaking spells in LoL??
I'm saying that champions carry much harder in DOTA then they do in LoL, from my experiences. I've witnessed this in game, I've viewed videos of it. I retract my Sand King example, because I've clearly hit a nerve.

quote BluAnimal
quote Chaosfire
quote BluAnimal
Very nice. Fiora isn't my kind of champ, especially cause my number one champion is her best counter.
Who?
Jax.
That makes sense, If I recall correctly, her ultimate applies On hit effects, making it dodgeable, so Jax can just counterstrike and Negate it. I believe Jax can also counterstrike a warwick ultimate.




Author:   Marc
Date:   Aug 26, 12 at 10:14pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote chaosfire
About the money topic, Most tournaments are funded and sponsored by third parties, not just riot. That's that.
Thats actually not that because I was just saying the 5 million for a long string of tournaments is clearly a e-penis compensation move on Riots part because Valve had the 1 mil internationals.



Author:   BluAnimal
Date:   Aug 26, 12 at 10:37pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote Chaosfire
quote BluAnimal
Very nice. Fiora isn't my kind of champ, especially cause my number one champion is her best counter.
Who?
Jax.



Author:   the_FAMAS_pro
Date:   Aug 26, 12 at 10:56pm (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote BluAnimal
quote Chaosfire
quote BluAnimal
Very nice. Fiora isn't my kind of champ, especially cause my number one champion is her best counter.
Who?
Jax.
Heh, i knew he was your main



Author:   BluAnimal
Date:   Aug 27, 12 at 4:50am (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote the_FAMAS_pro
quote BluAnimal
quote Chaosfire
quote BluAnimal
Very nice. Fiora isn't my kind of champ, especially cause my number one champion is her best counter.
Who?
Jax.
Heh, i knew he was your main
For two years now So if anyone wants to be a better Jax just message me



Author:   Chaosfire
Date:   Aug 27, 12 at 5:01am (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote BluAnimal
quote the_FAMAS_pro
quote BluAnimal
quote Chaosfire
quote BluAnimal
Very nice. Fiora isn't my kind of champ, especially cause my number one champion is her best counter.
Who?
Jax.
Heh, i knew he was your main
For two years now So if anyone wants to be a better Jax just message me
Would you say that Sheen is one of the most powerful items on jax in the early game? I've been rushing it, or I get it after wriggles if im jungling.



Author:   BluAnimal
Date:   Aug 27, 12 at 5:16am (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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Sheen is definitely a great item for him. I used to rush it on the old Jax (after my Hextech gunblade) but nowadays (the past 5-6 months of playing him once or twice a day) I found that he thrives with lifesteal. The sheen will give you a nice burst to your Empower and it also scales great with AP early game, but I usually rush A bilgewater cutlass against an AP/easy top lane and a Wriggle's against an AD. Then I grab usually a phage then the sheen. Although it doesn't matter which piece of Triforce you grab first, I usually grab based on necessity. If they have good burst, phage. If you're comfortably 2/3 levels above your lane or already positive a kill or two grab the Sheen.



Author:   Marc
Date:   Aug 27, 12 at 7:58am (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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quote Chaosfire
Lol has 103 heroes to this date, as opposed to Dota's 90 or so,
Dota has 108 heroes that DO NOT CHANGE AT ALL. Small nerfs/buffs are very unusual updates that never happen. And just to use your point, more heroes DO mean more complexity especially when all 103 of your heroes aren't changing weekly. This brings me to a huge point on why I like this game more than LoL. DOTA has a level playing field. Every game before a match you are able to pick from all 108 of these heros, doesn't matter if you have 5000 wins or its your first match, heros don't change weekly. Everybody is equal on day 1, you just have to learn how to pick a hero that will benefit your team and or shut down the other team.

DOTA has one hell of a meta game that I really don't want to delve into all the way right now because I don't want to write a book but I can assure you we have carry's, semi's, pushers, junglers, lane supports, gankers, supports, babysitters, nukers, initiators, durables, all that good stuff. I still probably know about 20% of the meta game.
quote
Not that it would matter if they were imbalanced anyway, I don't recall a DOTA 2 patch concerning balance to the date.
Care to guess why? Games been out since 2005, took a long time but people got shit figured out now. Buyable items in game let you adapt to the other team if somebody is to strong and being able to counter pick and guess what each hero is going to do is all vital.

I knew you would mention summoner spells in response to actual CC items. Two Summoner spells aren't anything compared to the item combinations. Items are things you farm for that are available to everybody at any point in the game. Where as in LoL somebody can just buy a bunch of points or whatever and buy all 40 summoner spells and be able to use them; not available to everybody.(pay2win)
Not to mention item skills are a little more complex than SS. Most SS are like target point heals or target point slows or speed boosts which is not in fact CC. Look at DOTA items necronomicon(spawn minions) or veil of discord(CC magic amplifying blast) these both require a small amount of money and are more interactive than your average SS. These can be purchased at any point in the game which enables you to adapt and change the way you current game is being played. Say somebody fed a huskar or something on your team and hes just raping everything in existance. You might want adapt to the game and have your support purchase a scythe which enables you to hex him into a toad for 5 seconds and then have your whole team whack his health bar down to nothing. Its a small example but it's the little things that count.

quote Chaosfire
I'm saying that champions carry much harder in DOTA then they do in LoL, from my experiences. I've witnessed this in game
Sand King isn't a carry. But yes hard/late game carry's in DOTA DO carry but they require insane amounts of farm like Anti mage or Faceless void. If your team does manage to let AM or PA get full farm and necessary items to faceroll your team, than yes the game is over.

The map is in depth too, secret shops required to finish recipes adds more interaction with the map. Couriers necessary to bring items to you while laning doesn't slow down the pace of the game. And another HUGE THING, there are things like destructible trees, elevation, a more dynamic field of vision and fog of war (that is affected by trees and other obstacles), day and night cycle, creep pulling, creep stacking, ward blocking, denying, etc. In League of Legends all you have is a bunch of brush that you run in and out of.



Author:   RazeHell
Date:   Aug 27, 12 at 8:39am (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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If it isn't too late to jump into the DoTA vs LoL argument:

DoTA was the first MOBA. Nobody can argue with that. Every genre has to have its own pioneer. However, just because it is the original, doesn't mean it's the best. Just look at Wolfenstein. It was one of the first FPS's, but nobody in their right minds would claim that it's better than say, Halo (unless they're self righteous hipsters, in which case, their opinion is obviously superior to yours).
DoTA is the exact same way.


On the whole Beta issue that you keep bringing up:

You say that we keep comparing a finished game (LoL) to an unfinished game (DoTA 2).
Obviously Valve is as finished with the game as they plan to be, and you and I both know that.
If they weren't, they wouldn't be holding these million dollar tournaments that you say they're having.


On the topic of popularity, well you only have to make a visit to Twitch.tv to get the gist of the weighting of popularity.
Checking just now, I see 175 live League channels, and only 18 DoTA 2 channels.
The top viewed LoL channel is currently at 8590 watchers, and the top viewed DoTA channel is only at 1140 viewers.


On the topic of general gameplay:

DoTA is bad and just stubbornly difficult.

Yes, more complexity can be a good thing.
No, you don't have to have a million extra items with almost no shop orginization.

No, graphics aren't everything.
Yes, you should at least put some effort into not making your game look like a pile of shit.

Yes, it is okay to have a game with a very high learning curve.
No, you should not leave out a tutorial that at least somewhat helps new players (including myself) ease into the game.

Not to mention the fact that every single character is bland and unmemorable.
The one thing that you can't argue with without sounding like a jackass is that LoL has an incredibly diverseand fleshed out roster, especially when compared to DoTA's roster.
Not only that, but for whatever reason, Valve thought it would be a good idea to restrict the champs you can use to the team you are on.


I've played bits of LoL, HoN, and DoTA 2, and I can say without a doubt that DoTA was the worst of the bunch. Not only did I not have fun playing it, but I hated every moment of it.
It was so bad that I uninstalled it immediately after the first game, because it is literally not worth the four gigs it takes on your hard drive.
Of course that is entirely my own opinion.



Author:   Marc
Date:   Aug 27, 12 at 11:17am (PST)
Subject:   re: Off-topic GD II - Nobody has a cool a hat as Caitlyn
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Okay now your pissing me off. Don't jump into the argument if you are just going over addressed issues. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU STATE OPINIONS AS FACT. SORRY YOU DON'T LIKE DOTA 2 BUT ADULTS ARE TALKING.
quote
Obviously Valve is as finished with the game as they plan to be, and you and I both know that.
You didn't even read this properly. The mechanics are done but for *bleep*s sake, the game isn't out yet, so you can't compare the two games popularity. Thats it. Valve is obviously going to add the rest of the characters, clean up player portraits, and add a tutorial who knows what else in the end.


Since you repeated everything your friends above are arguing with, I'll make it simple for you.

LoL: Dated graphics, Pay2win, less in depth(its fine but I prefer a deeper game), Heroes change constantly, buying runes and SS and heroes all mean you don't have a level playing field, horrible lore.

And the heros are what? More diverse? Riot shits out characters like nothing, like a game breaker every two weeks. And the worst part is these champions come with crazy moves or just very generic ones because with a roster of over 100 characters, you tend to run low on ideas. Every now and then they'll create a great champ (e.g. Riven, Ahri, Shyvanna, Graves), but it's come to the point where I don't even read about half these new champions because they are so typecast. lets not forget that a good amount of LoL heros and skills resemble DOTA, too.


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