Neoseeker.com Forum Thread: The End of Everything: We're all gonna die. - page 1

reprinted from http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/
original thread: http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/16/t1812074-end-of-everything-were-all-gonna-die/


Author:   harbin
Date:   Jan 01, 13 at 10:40am (PST)
Subject:   The End of Everything: We're all gonna die.
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Bleak title aside, I don't claim to know physics inside out but this question stems from the limited knowledge I have regarding how the Universe ends. Assuming that human civilisation has lasted the long haul, it is coming to the end of the universe, is it possible as a species to cheat it? As humans, we have already theorised an object called a Time Crystal that will survive the heat death of the Universe (powering what, for whatever reason I've no idea), but from what I understand there are three ways the Universe will end.

1. Big Crunch --> Big Bounce
This is where the expansion of the Universe slows and reverses, ultimately leading to every star, planet, black hole, all coming together to form a highly dense black hole singularity. This would inturn theoretically cause another Big Bang to occur and the Universe being reborn since such a singularity itself violates the laws of physics in that you have something with no volume but infinite energy. Could we as a species work a way around how to be away from such a thing. In millions of years, would it be possible that we might've been able to build spaceships big and powerful enough to move away far enough to avoid the crunchy bang and hope to survive long enough on ships until a suitable planet is formed again and continue civilisation that way.

2. Big Rip
This is where the expansion of the Universe continues until it becomes torn apart, gravity causes planets, stars and atoms to be thrown around until that becomes ripped apart. Apparently because dark energy would just destroy everything and swollow us all up in the space of about half an hour. This one I'm struggling to find a scenario in which we could defeat. I suppose the only possible way is if we could create wormholes and find a parallel universe to live in. That requires the multiverse theory but since every single outcome is played out in that theory, there would be an infinate and never endeding supply of universes or happen to create a portal through time back to the beginning in which we all travel.

3. Heat Death
Since the Universe is an isolated system, according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics entorpy can only increase. This is where all heat energy is transferred from high heat states to low heat states, until a balance is achieved (think ice melting in water, both will become water at some point). At this point, there is no available energy for work to be done and the Universe enters a low heat state, depending on proton decay this would happen in a longer or shorter period of time. Could we as a human discover a way to break the isolated system and discover a new source of energy, in this event either to continue the universe as a whole or just to continue our own existance?

We already know that it is possible to go faster than light since light does not travel at a constant speed. Light travels in wavelengths and can be bent or slowed depending on temperature and gravity.

I know as a species we are still relatively young and don't even know everything about our own planet let alone the entire universe, we don't know if there is anything beyond the edge of the universe (if there is such a possible) thing, and chances are we will be dead (the members, not humanity) billions of years before then due to age or disease. Even scientists however cannot predict when the universe will truly end but we do have quite some time until then.

It is all largely speculative but what are you thoughts? Can humanity cheat death of the universe?

EDIT: Well I did expect slightly more interest than that in this thread.



Author:   Yogurt
Date:   Jan 01, 13 at 3:55pm (PST)
Subject:   re: The End of Everything: We're all gonna die.
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There's probably a theoretical way for us to survive, if every single factor was in our favour, and if we carried it out correctly, but will we? Who knows. It's tremendously unlikely. Virtually impossible, I'd say. We probably have more of chance(?) of curing every disease, trillions and trillions of times over (as in different diseases) than surviving the end of the universe.




Author:   wildfire
Date:   Jan 01, 13 at 4:41pm (PST)
Subject:   re: The End of Everything: We're all gonna die.
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harbin

Ever hear of the multi-universe theory? Some scientists think that we might be able to avert death in any scenario by escaping to another universe that has similar laws of physics.

It is sad to think about though, that we manage to survive against all odds, and come to find out that the universe itself ends up killing everything in the end.



Author:   wigthers 2000
Date:   Jan 09, 13 at 8:08pm (PST)
Subject:   re: The End of Everything: We're all gonna die.
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I sometimes read about this in my Astronomy books I have. All 3 of these theories about the fate of the Universe are quite sound (at least to me) because when our Universe began it was one giant fireball. It can go in any way described, thugh I am a believer in the "Big Crunch" theory along with the Universe starting anew after that.



Author:   Dreadlock Holiday
Date:   Jan 09, 13 at 8:47pm (PST)
Subject:   re: The End of Everything: We're all gonna die.
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The Multi-Verse theory intrigues me quite a lot. If in the event of "The Big Crunch" or "The Big Rip", there may be a chance that a certain part of the Universe could collapse, while another part of the Universe stays as it is. Perhaps the universe has and will always do this.

Collapse, expand, repeat.



Author:   KR_1250
Date:   Jan 10, 13 at 6:36am (PST)
Subject:   re: The End of Everything: We're all gonna die.
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quote harbin
EDIT: Well I did expect slightly more interest than that in this thread.
I think its probably because you picked such a difficult (but interesting) topic. Its also something that i at least have discussed on here before and so maybe people have covered their opinions on it there?

I personally love topics like this. Much better than "Bieibers hairdo" or "Whats your favourite colour?". I was just on holiday when it was posted.

The methods you mentioned are also not the only ones. The big crunch is still an outside contender which has not been undoubtably disproven. (Though seems unlikely).

And then there is a potential fate called "Phase shift" in which a spontaneous runaway reaction changes the energised states of matter pretty much destroying the universe at the quantum level. However i have a very limited understanding of this and can find very little literature on the subject.

Another theory i have heard suggests that dark energy (which has been suggested as a mechanism for cosmic inflation) was at one time much stronger than it is today. Its relationship with dark matter is so poorly understood that a change in the ratios could again have massive unforseen consiquences for the universe. No one has been able to accurately mention how uniform the despertion of either are throughout space. And no-one knows how subject to change these figures are or what could happen if they fluctuate as they once did as inflation ended. This fluctuation if possible could have massive effects on the universe.

Then there is ofcourse the competing theories suggesting no complete end. First of all the multiverse theory is still wildly open for speculation. Do universe ever trully end? If there is a multiverse then how can everything end at once? Is the multiverse itself capable of ending? Can seperate universe merge or combine like galaxies do? Could our end be the begining of a new merger? Can matter travel between seperate universes and so potentially survive for infinity? So many questions, so little evidence either way.

The "Brane World" theory suggests that collisions between microscopically seperate dimensions of spacetime actually CAUSE big bangs. Our universe could contact one physically and a new eruption of energy and matter could be explosively injected into our (and the other) universe ironically ending everything by causing a new START to creation. Infact this is a proposed metyhod for a cyclic universe other than the gravitational collapse theory. (Crunch, bang, crunch, bang.....etc)

And also there are other hints at a cyclic universe, or the serious suggestion that black holes potentially create new planes of existance. Mneh... i dunno about this one but some scientists have started to take this very seriously. They suggest that supermassive black hole formation creates a new universe. Others have suggested that Gamma Ray bursts are infact not bipolar jets of energy erupting from a dead star but may be an injection of material from a black hole in another universe into this one. This perticular theory means that in principal at least information and matter can travel between universes prehaps giving humanity a ready made "Fire Exit" from the universe if it does infact have an end.

Thats the other thing. Due to our infancy in advanced physics and our lack of understanding we could yet discover new laws of physics showing the universe infact never ends. Perhaps these findings could relate to energy transfer between universes. But this is all a bit scifi for me and flies in the face of the laws of thermodynamics... as we currently accept them.

I think two points stick out for me here. First of all the time scales involved must be mentioned. Apart from some of these more abstract quantum and multiverse theories which are mere speculation all of these processes require hundreds of billions to quadrillions of years to happen. So ever getting an accurate answer seems impossible for our generation.

The other point i'd make is that our current understanding of physics leaves each possibility open for now. We cant rule anything out and cant identify any as inevitable. So this makes it a bloody interesting topic.

Oh and ofcourse God could do it... Just for balance.

And DreadlockHoliday

You actually hinted at a thought i have had for years. How do we know the entire universe follows the same laws of physics? We know our observable "bubble" largely does but why do we consider the universe as analogous to say a "balloon" instead of maybe a rubber glove. I imagine someone inflating a rubber glove whilst pinching a finger. Then suddenly letting go and BOOM! A sort of side alley of the universe pops into existance with different chrecteristics. How do we know that we are not in this side pocket of reality?

This creates the idea that as you suggested part of a universe can begin/change/end whilst the rest is unafected. Perhaps these side pockets can detach and BECOME other universes. I know this is all speculation verging on the rambling of a moron but its just a thought i have had. I dont invest any belief in it.

We just dont know. Interesting mental excersise though this kind of thing though.

Oh and i dont mind putting msyelf on the spot. I'll take a guess. I'd say the heat death theory seems most likely. Its the one i have heard the most well developed and convincing logic behind and perhaps the only one supported by evidence. Its still FAAAAAR from confirmed by any means though.



Author:   RegalBryant
Date:   Jan 10, 13 at 11:38am (PST)
Subject:   re: The End of Everything: We're all gonna die.
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All we have to do is find a way to go to a universe less far along in it's lifespan than our own.



Author:   person_47
Date:   Jan 12, 13 at 12:49pm (PST)
Subject:   re: The End of Everything: We're all gonna die.
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quote harbin
Assuming that human civilisation has lasted the long haul, it is coming to the end of the universe, is it possible as a species to cheat it? As humans, we have already theorised an object called a Time Crystal that will survive the heat death of the Universe (powering what, for whatever reason I've no idea), but from what I understand there are three ways the Universe will end.
The time crystal is a bit of a joke though. Anything that demands perpetual motion to exist is a waste of time.
quote
3. Heat Death
Since the Universe is an isolated system, according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics entorpy can only increase. This is where all heat energy is transferred from high heat states to low heat states, until a balance is achieved (think ice melting in water, both will become water at some point). At this point, there is no available energy for work to be done and the Universe enters a low heat state, depending on proton decay this would happen in a longer or shorter period of time. Could we as a human discover a way to break the isolated system and discover a new source of energy, in this event either to continue the universe as a whole or just to continue our own existance?
There are numerous heat death scenarios. Some are tied in with the alternative universe death theories. The thing is, you can't change entropy and so there would be no avoiding it or "powering something" as there really is nothing to power, just an ever increasing entropy. To reverse entropy would be to violate physics and so no, there would be nothing we could do to stop it.

As far as maybe taking humanity away from our universe we could maybe hope for some kind of multiverse theory. Ideally it would be one where black holes are what creates universes and we could theoretically design something that could allow us to attempt to travel through them wormhole style.


quote
We already know that it is possible to go faster than light since light does not travel at a constant speed. Light travels in wavelengths and can be bent or slowed depending on temperature and gravity.
Here you are misread. Light does travel in wavelengths but so does everything else. If light were to be bent, distorted and slowed down then so would everything else in the vicinity on a relative scale and as such the light would still be moving at a speed that we can not achieve.

quote
I know as a species we are still relatively young and don't even know everything about our own planet let alone the entire universe, we don't know if there is anything beyond the edge of the universe (if there is such a possible) thing, and chances are we will be dead (the members, not humanity) billions of years before then due to age or disease. Even scientists however cannot predict when the universe will truly end but we do have quite some time until then.
There could be no traveling through the end of the universe. I believe the only way any physics allows for that is through a black/white hole. If you were to reach the end of the universe one of two things would happen:

1. You hit a wall and can advance no further (finite universe)
2. You would continue and as you continue the universe would expand (infinite)

Ultimately though, I don't think there would be any stopping the end of the universe even theoretically. There are too many things that physics tells us we can't know (no matter what happens or how much time and technology we have) and we would need a near perfect understanding to even begin to hypothesize how to stop it.


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