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hideOriginal Post

Jun 09, 07 at 8:37pmAza123

I think Blastiose because his Ice Beam can Take Down
Venusaur And its Hydro Cannon can take out Charizard!

Thread Recap (last 10 posts from newest to oldest)

May 22, 14 at 8:19am

if its a battle to the death started out as young starter Bulbasaur Squirtle and Charmander. give them rare candies no Ev IV training Mega Evolution or TM or HM my first opinion was venasaur till i saw blastoises moves and he can normally learn rain dance which will affect venasaur and charizard in ways. Blastoise for sure

May 22, 14 at 8:14am

quote Asycath
Hands down, he is one epic lizard.

May 01, 14 at 9:47am

quote Michelle Fortier
Obviously venusaur, blastoises ice beam will not take out a venusaur and it could use sunny day or have a power herd and use solar beam easily taking out a blastoise. You people are unitellegent blastoise doesn't even max out 300 special attack at lvl 100 it's only good defense wise.
Standard OU Spreads say no:
4 SpA Venusaur Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blastoise: 182-216 (50.2 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you want non-standard then it's just about possible:
252+ SpA Venusaur Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 344-408 (95 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
But not always.

Apr 29, 14 at 5:26pm
Michelle Fortier

Obviously venusaur, blastoises ice beam will not take out a venusaur and it could use sunny day or have a power herd and use solar beam easily taking out a blastoise. You people are unitellegent blastoise doesn't even max out 300 special attack at lvl 100 it's only good defense wise.

Apr 25, 14 at 2:54am

A quick edit on my last post. I did the calculations for Modest/252
252 SpA Charizard Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 222-262 (61.3 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Blastoise Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Charizard in Sun: 168-200 (56.3 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If Charizard gets max damage, people will argue that Torrent activates:
252+ SpA Torrent Blastoise Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Charizard in Sun: 254-300 (85.2 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
This is practically the only way Blastoise can win, with Modest/252 Sp.Atk, and this is basically what would happen
Charizard would use Sunny Day, Blastoise uses Hydro Pump and does 56.3 - 67.1%. Charizard then goes for SolarBeam and does 61.3 - 72.3%, Blastoise then gets the KO. The only problem with Blastoise here is that Hydro Pump could miss either time, and give Charizard the win still

Apr 25, 14 at 2:47am

Ok I've just spent the last few minutes reading this, and most people's claims are coming from, "Oh, this guy sucks!" Well, here I am to end it.

For this, I will consider both XY and LGFR. Firstly, the SubSeed strategy is completely luck based and unreliable, but I will point out to one guy that Venusaur does get viable offensive moves... Namely Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain, the latter of which would be extremely useful in SubSeed (yes I understand the 4x resistance, enhancing my point about SubSeed being useless). I'm also going to ignore the posts like, "My Charizard has Fly / Seismic Toss etc and it can kill anything," because it definitely can't. I can mention tonnes of Pokémon that are faster and carry rock moves which can easily 0HKO, enhanced by Charizard's pretty pitiful defence. People are also kind of overhyping Blastoise a bit. I saw a post a while back which said most people run 252 HP / 252 Sp. Def, and this is completely correct. Blastoise's Special Attack really isn't that great, and only has its bulk going for it really.
Next is Venusaur, and while I have already covered SubSeed's viability, Venusaur does have other strategies, namely the ability to use Chloryphll. Granted, if Venusaur used Sunny Day with Charizard on the field, it would practically be a death sentence, so you would have to hope that Charizard uses Sunny Day. Due to the unpredictability of what may happen, it is definite that Charizard would beat Venusaur and, here's a few damage calculations just in case you still don't believe me:
252 SpA Charizard Blast Burn vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 434-512 (119.2 - 140.7%– Guaranteed 0HKO
Next, to finish off with Venusaur, we will consider it's matchups with Blastoise. I've seen many comments so far saying, "Oh, Blastoise can easily kill Venusaur with Ice Beam." Here is a standard OU EV Spread for Venusaur: Bold 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Sp.Atk (Based on Pokémon Showdown Usage Statistics). This set is mainly used for SubSeed variations however, so it really doesn't give Venusaur that much variety. Blastoise is also a similar bulky spread: 252 HP / 4 Sp.Atk / 252 Sp.Def (I ignored all of the Mega Blastoise sets). So, the Ice Beam would do:
4 SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 114-136 (31.3 - 37.3%) -- 83.7% chance to 3HKO
Just because an attack is super effective doesn't mean that it will always kill, and here you can see that the attack is going to be pretty pitiful. Even the other way around, Venusaur really isn’t doing as much as you would expect it too:
4 SpA Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blastoise: 116-138 (32 - 38.1%) -- 92.8% chance to 3HKO
As you can see, Blastoise is pretty unlikely to be getting a freeze (it’s only 10%) and Venusaur also has its reliable form of recovery and damage in the form of Giga Drain.

Next, we have Blastoise, and as we have just covered, it’s matchup against Venusaur was pretty underwhelming, but how does it fair against a Charizard? As I stated earlier in the first damage calculation, Charizard’s standard set is Timid 4 HP / 252 Sp.Atk / 252 Spd. Blastoise is also Calm 252 HP / 4 Sp.Atk / 252 Sp.Def. For Charizard to win, it’s pretty clear that SolarBeam will have to be used here…
252 SpA Charizard Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blastoise: 162-192 (44.7 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
… but we’ve already hit our first problem – a lack of significant damage. As SolarBeam takes a turn to charge, that means we’re spending 4 turns just to KO, and as it says above, it isn’t even guaranteed. However…
4 SpA Blastoise Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 236-282 (79.1 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This isn’t even a Hydro Cannon and the results seem pretty clear. Now, I can hear pretty much everyone saying, “Well what about in the sun?” Well, Hydro Pump does get reduced in damage, obviously, but to what?
4 SpA Blastoise Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Charizard in Sun: 116-140 (38.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
As you can see, Blastoise will get the KO, but only after 3 turns. Even if Charizard uses Sunny Day and SolarBeam twice, it still only has that 30.5% chance to KO.

So Blastoise loses against Venusaur, and has the possibility to lose against a Charizard, Charizard has the possibility to win against a Blastoise and wins against Venusaur and Venusaur wins against Blastoise and loses against Charizard, so I proclaim Charizard to be the best Kanto starter.

But that’s not all.

These stats and EVs are only the most common sets, and does not encompass every possibility. Pokémon is a game for kids, and not all children are going to spent hours breeding for their perfect teams and EV training (although this has become easier with Super Training in Gen 6…). So really, we can’t make an accurate prediction. However, these calculations and such seem to be the most probable and thought out. People can also argue different natures for things like Blastoise, such as 252 Sp.Atk and Modest, but it would only weaken Blastoise's chance of surviving a SolarBeam. I would also examine Mega Evolutions, but to quickly think them over, Mega Charizard Y gets Drought, which means he no longer needs to waste a turn using Sunny Day. I’ll leave those predictions to you, but I would put bets on MegaZardY.

Apr 24, 14 at 9:30am

are you guys talking about pokemon x and y the gMe?

Apr 16, 14 at 11:56am

I think it really depends. Are they wild or captured Pokemon? If they are captured then they can learn almost any move and each trainer has their own individual strategy. Also each move has it's own individual effectiveness against a Pokemon and it's type. Charizard has greater speed than both and could easily take out Venusaur with fire attacks. Venusaur can easily take out Blastoise with its grass type moves. Blastoise might be able to resist Venusaur with its defense advantage but Venusaur would get through eventually. Blastoise would take out Charizard but remember Blastoise is slow as hell. It is kind of rock, paper, scissors. Each would counter each other but who would win.

Blastoise: Far superior defense to either Pokemon.
Venusaur: More defense that Charizard but far less than Blastoise.
Charizard: The least defense of the three.


Blastoise: The slowest of the three.
Venusaur: A little more speed than Blastoise.
Charizard: The most speed making up for his weak defense.


It depends on the attack and the typing of the foe.

The Final choice.

This battle could go any way. Out of honesty, it depends if two team up on one then take out the other, (for example, Venusaur and Charizard team up on Blastoise then take each other out). They could just battle royal but Charizards warrior mentality means he would try to take out Blastoise but Venusaur would try to take out Charizard. Blastoise would try and take out Venusaur. But, who knows...

Feb 20, 14 at 4:47pm
Nic Eckert

charizard hands down

Jan 11, 14 at 9:25pm



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