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Oct 06, 04 at 10:33pmBlackheartedwolf


http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/10/06/dog.attack.ap/index.html

quote
Pet dog kills 5-week-old infant
Wednesday, October 6, 2004 Posted: 2:25 PM EDT (1825 GMT)


JACKSONVILLE, Florida (AP) -- A 5-week-old baby left alone by his grandmother died after being mauled by the family dog.

Jose Diaz was on a bed Tuesday when the dog jumped up and attacked him. Police believe a 7-year-old mutt hurt the boy, though officers also found two other dogs in the house.

The baby had bites on his face and head when his parents, both 19, brought him to a fire station after the attack. He was taken by helicopter to Shands Jacksonville hospital, where he later died.

Sun Woodjinski, 49, was supposed to be baby-sitting the boy. The baby's mother, Jennifer Woodjinski, was working at a nearby Taco Bell and his father, Albert Diaz, did yardwork.

The mutt belonged to Jennifer Woodjinski, but she left the dog at her mother's home when she moved away and had her baby.

Homicide detectives were investigating, but it appeared the death was accidental, Jacksonville Sheriff's Office spokesman Ken Jefferson said. It was unclear what would be done with the dogs.

I wonder what breed of dog it was. I can't imagine my dog ever doing such a thing. He loves babies.

Thread Recap (last 10 posts from newest to oldest)

May 16, 14 at 3:58am
Joseph Watson


Very sad incident, there must be some reasons behind this kind of dog behavior. when I Imagine about such kind of brutal and horrific incidents, then I feel reconsidering my decision of having a dog as a pet through out my life.



Apr 10, 12 at 5:51pm
janesha


[i][/i]
quote i think the dog should be put down, killing an infant like that, he might strike again. i have two kids and no dogs, one has to be careful, as for grandma, she is at fault for leaving an infant unattended, and i agree , where was the baby that the dog was able to do this?! i love dogs but , this dog isnt normal and should be destroyed.




Apr 17, 05 at 7:07pm
phoenix_risin


[quote][originator=Firefly4ever]No- dogs should not do this. This dog should be put down. Any dog that attacks unprovoked like this is not "acting on instincts and doesn't know what its doing." Domestic dogs should never attack like this. If a dog is guarding a place or person and attacks someone threatening- fine. This dog is unpredictable and dangerous.

When I was younger- one of our dogs killed our other dog. Unprovoked attack and she had never been aggressive before. She had to be put down because you don't know if and when it will happen again! She could have killed our other dog next, or the cat or attacked a person. It is unacceptable to accept vicious and dangerous behavior from a dog that is supposed to be a family pet.

I would give a bit more lee-way to a dog that had been teased or picked on by children. If it was scared and they were being cruel to it- its understandable for a dog to react with biting. But to attack a 5 week- old -infant- No Way!! Something is not right with this dog. You can't just excuse such behavior as instinct. If all dogs acted on "instinct" such as this- they wouldn't be the household pet that they are.

Unfortunately, the majority of dog attacks are by family dogs. Children may not know how to behave around a dog which can cause it to react in an aggressive manner. Children should be taught how to deal with dogs- and should be supervised with dogs when very young.

ANY breed of dog and ANY mutt dog has the potential, though most dogs stay sweet their whole lives. My dog is the friendliest, sweetest dog- even the cats bully her- but she doesn't have a lot of experience with children. Whenever we are around children, I always supervise. Shes been great with them- letting them hug and kiss her- but still, I feel she doesn't quite understand children and its best to be there.

If you want to talk about instinct,even though dog bites come from family dogs, its more likely for a dog in a family to feel protective toward a child. Dogs are pack animals and see a family as part of their pack. They should instinctively feel more protective and tolerant towards an infant or child- thats how pack members are. Or possibly, they should feel part of a "litter" with children.

No- this dog should be put down. I'm not being cruel- it just can't be trusted. A family dog with children should be tolerant and if it is being bothered by a child, it should just get up and leave.
quote]





could Not have said that one better myself

I totally agree Although I do thing granny needs a stiff fine or a few days in jail for her part as well

NO one should leave a infant or child either unsupervised with any pet.

I so also agree on the park issue Amazing how many people do Not teach their kids about other folks dogs and little ones will run right up and grab the dog in the face

Thankfully the dog I have now well she is not only my service dog and trained and has not an aggressive bone in her body UNLESS you attempt to cause me harm
but when I used to foster dogs Heck some of them had some serious issues and so I had to stay on guard
I just wish more people would actually educate themselves on owning a pet responsibly before they took that step into ownership



Apr 10, 05 at 8:23am
Road Kill 101


They should have been just a tad bit more careful I mean any dog could kill a 5 week old ababy. I would try to keep them seperated untill the dog gets used to the baby. Thats the smart thing to do.



Apr 01, 05 at 11:51pm
Blackheartedwolf


I am just about to have my baby anyday now, April 6th at the latest. My mother in law has a Cocker Spaniel that my husband and I worry about, because she is a very jealous dog when it comes to other dogs. We don't know how she will be with the baby, and we are nervous that when my mother in law is watching the baby, that she could step away for a second, and the dog could hurt the baby. This story has been in the back of my mind for months. A bite or nip is one thing, but killing a baby?!? Newborns are NOT that fragile that a simple nip would kill them. That baby had to have been mauled or bit deep enough that it bled to death. A dog that is playing with a toy is not normally going to do enough damage to kill someone.

If a dog kills a human, I think it needs to be destroyed, whether it was human negligence that allowed the accident to happen or not.

I mean, what do you do with a dog that has killed a person? Do you keep it locked in a kennel until it gets old and dies? If a dog is not safe around humans, what kind of life would it have? A life chained up, or stuck in a cage? Spend the rest of its life drugged and sedated?

It can't be kept as a pet, after all, because it is too dangerous and unpredictable. That dog has no chance at a quality life once it has killed someone. I can't imagine anyone starting a shelter/ rescue for dogs like that.

Who would want to adopt an animal that had killed someone?



Dec 02, 04 at 2:51pm
twirlbird


1) At 5 weeks, this baby should have been in a crib, or within eyesight. This is too young to just leave somewhere.

2) Why would you leave a baby within reach of an animal. It IS an animal, not a person, we cannot predict what it would do. At 5 weeks, these animals could not have been socialized to this baby, especially considering it would have only been rare that they would have seen it, and most likely not even began the training while the baby was still in uterus.

3) It wouldn't take much to kill a 5 week old. The dog might have thought that it was playing with a toy. A bite that wouldn't have us think twice about could end a newborns life. A newborn is pretty fragile.


I don't think that this dog should lose its life because of a mistake in judgement(I don't think anything harsh should happen to the grandmother, unless she did something that actively precipated this unfortunate death) on the grandmothers part. This is just another accident.



Nov 12, 04 at 4:23pm
Firefly4ever


I guess its safe to say that we aren't going to agree Veronika! Thats all right- life would be boring if everyone thought the same. I could keep going and reply to your posts, while you back reply to mine-and on and on- but it really seems pointless. I've made my postion quite clear, as have you, and now we're just going around in circles! I think we can agree that this debate between us is over. Not because anyone "WON" the debate- but because we have differing views on the subject and won't change each others mind.

I don't give dogs the same credit as I do people when it comes to thinking- I just give them more credit then you do. I've seen and heard and read about too many stories that show a certain level of thinking and intelligence and nothing anyone says can change my opinion on that. As for emotions- well, I guess even you have to admit that animals may act on emotions as well as instinct!


Just have to clarify one point- the dogs we had- the one that killed the other- weren't playing or anything. Penny just went outside to go potty when Brigette attacked her. Unprovoked. This was years into their relationship and there was no way she was startled into attacking either. Please do not analyze this- it may have happened 15 years ago, but it still hurts. Penny was my constant companion when I was home and the hole created by her loss has never been filled.

Thanks for a nice debate and not turning it into something nasty! Some people lose their credibility when they turn to name calling and plain nastiness when someone disagrees with them. You're a good person.



Nov 09, 04 at 3:15pm
Veronika


quote Firefly4ever
Sorry this looks funny! I'm still a bit computer illiterate- this is the first time I've tried to add a quote- It didn't work like I planned. My responses are included in the whole "quote" section- Labeled "MY RESPONSE". I gotta learn how you do the seperate quotes and answers! I know- I'm an idiot when it comes to doing anything extra like quotes and such.
Okay.

All you had to do was put quote bracks around my response and then you can reply to it with your own response. I hope you get the hang of the computer and posting on boards

Well onto the battle ground and smiles aside. Just kidding.


quote
MY RESPONSE: How am I being unrealistic? I just stated that I didn't believe there was willful neglect. People leave babies alone to sleep all the time with nothing more then a baby monitor. How do single mothers who live alone ever get anything done- like showering- if they can't leave their baby sleeping and monitor them with a baby monitor? Yes- with animals around its shouldn't be done- but she probably had no idea that she was taking a risk.
You just answered yourself. They leave their babies when the baby is asleep and have a monitored device to hear if the baby woke up.
quote
MY RESPONSE: Yes - they are delicate, but the point you seemed to be making was that there was no difference between accidental death by a toddler or an old woman and a dog who willfully attacks with the intention to kill. Theres a huge difference. If I misinterpreted the statements you were making, I apologize- thats my mistake, but it really seemed you were saying that the death by the dog was just an innocent mistake on the dogs part like a toddler/old woman- and it wasn't.
Yes there is a similarity. You know what that is? Not paying attention to your toddler suffocating the new born:
And vs. Not paying attention to the newborn when the dog attacks.

Bottom line:
Pay attention to the innocent baby that has no way of defending or protecting itself.

quote
MY RESPONSE: Does that mean that you think its ok for a dog to attack with absolutely no provacation or threat towards itself!? That this is normal and acceptable behavior in a family dog? Or that the dog can't tell the difference between a squeaky toy and a child?!! I mean the scent alone would tell the dog that this was not a toy! Also there are plenty of stories of dogs being protective towards children and babies- why don't you believe that? Dogs are pack animals and in a pack the youngest are protected. You like to talk about how dogs don't think and only act on instinct- well thats a deeply ingrained instinct.
You're giving too much credit on the dogs intellect.

As much as I love dogs, they don't equal to a human. Even dolphins and monkeys are supposedly "smarter".
quote
MY RESPONSE: If people were doing such a great job spaying and neutering there wouldn't be so many puppies and kittens in the shelters. Our dog was left with her 7 siblings in a cardboard box at the Humane society. I do agree that more people are being responsible and getting their animals fixed- but we're definitely not where we need to be on this issue. Hope it continues to get better! Though I have to say- that if people don't have the time or the money to have a dog or cat- they probably shouldn't have one at all as time and money are whats needed to properly care for a pet.
Well all we can do is keep trying.

And as for the issues of overrun unwanted dogs/cats/other animals. This is the same in orphanages where children are not adopted. It's a sad world indeed. But let's keep being optimistic because silver linings are always good to catch.


quote
MY RESPONSE: The litmus test for being able to think is not just talking, reading and voting...etc.. there are different kinds of thinking. I don't know- I just don't like the idea that my dog and cats can't think at all. I've seen them work out problems and solve them. We left a peanut butter jar out once and our dog worked on the same area of the cover until she worked it off and got to the goody inside! How did she know she would be successful if she worked on the same area instead of biting unthinkingly around the whole thing. How did she even know which end to work on? We never taught her. Maybe just coincidence huh? Well how about when she got a hold of some cream savers hard candy in their individual wrappers? She didn't just chomp down on it like you would expect her too as an animal who can't think- she very carefully held onto it- put a slit into it and worked the candy out- leaving nothing behind but a wrapper with one neat slit on the end. She was neater at it then I am!! How about other animals- gorillas, chimps, dolphins...etc..none of them can think? If they can't think, and only act on instinct, then how could they ever feel love, affection or dislike- is it all just instinct?! God...I hope not.
Again, you're putting too much emphasis on the dogs intellect.

And what about other "smarter" animals?

Love and affection, dislike and other is from "emotion"...

If you're familiar with emotion, naturally they don't require thinking. These are feelings.

What separates us is that we are able to have feelings and rational thinking. A beautiful balance that makes us rulers of animals. Simple as that.

quote
by ME:
Well, this is the only time in which you actually felt pity for the dog and blamed the responsibility for the owners "aggressive" training than the dogs themselves...

MY RESPONSE: DO NOT put words in my mouth. I never said I didn't feel pity for the dog! It breaks my heart, but a dog that attacks violently (with the exception of a dog that is being harrassed) still must be put down. Not all attacks are because of irresponsible people. I've mentioned this before- we had a dog that killed our other dog- Penny- who we had for 13 years. Snapped her neck. The attacking dog- Brigette had never, ever been encouraged or trained to be aggressive and had never once given any indication that she would be violent. Theres no way that she was threatened by Penny-who was smaller, older and slower then her either. Were we supposed to wait and see if she would kill our other dog, the cat or attack one of us? Of course not. This happened in 1989 and I can still be brought to tears thinking about it- we lost 2 dogs. Are you saying that it was our fault??!! Just because I think violent dogs should be put down, doesn't mean that I don't cry when it has to be done- I do.
Did you notice something in this scenerio??

First off: I'm really really sorry about your loss.
But did you notice what you said??

The dog was old and fragile. Slower. I'm not saying this should be a battleground for two dogs to play in a dangerous game but stronger newer dogs can play very rough.

I'm not saying that your decision was a wrong one. IF you fear that this dog will "kill" again, then you have made your decision and judgement. I'm sorry for your loss again, and for the decision you had to make.

BTW, I did not put words in your mouth. I was merely having an opinion of what I thought of your posts and thought they were contradictory...no problem.
quote
MY RESPONSE: I do agree that it wouldn't have happened if the the dog had been unable to get where the baby was and the adult is responsible for that, but the dog still crossed that line. Any dog who crosses that line must be put down, whether by instinct or not, its not acceptable. This person I'm sure will blame themselves their whole life for what happened, not only for the loss of a baby, but the loss of the dog as well.
I see.

I understand your point.(in bold)

Duly noted on the person blaming themselves. I feel sadness for everyone in this case. Human adult, baby, and dog alike.


quote
Sorry such a long post- I do get wordy at times!! I really do repect your opinions Veronika- you make some good points here and on animal rights. I don't think we're going to agree on this one- but thats ok! You have a very caring heart and I'm glad that you try to keep an optimistic view about people. Its easy not to at times! Any animal you may have or will have in the future will be very lucky to have you!!
Thanks. Sometimes too caring that I tend to cry when I see animals abused on tv. or what I hear. I love the human race but because we are thinkers and have the good grace to having a rational, moral courage in us, we can also be the most evil and destroy.

The way nature is with animals in their ecosystem is that animals are very balanced in their nature. Predators hunt and eat what they can, not over kill or put a species to Extinction as humans.

If man kills wolves to the point of extinction (as history has shown us what happened) what becomes of it's ecosystem and it's uses? We have an abundance of prey, lots of things go wrong.

This has been shown in deer as mentioned before in one of my posts, and the abundance of rabbits in Austrailia many years ago. They became a plague.

Man is different. We create and we build and come up with ideas to make things better or worse.





Nov 06, 04 at 4:19am
Firefly4ever


Sorry this looks funny! I'm still a bit computer illiterate- this is the first time I've tried to add a quote- It didn't work like I planned. My responses are included in the whole "quote" section- Labeled "MY RESPONSE". I gotta learn how you do the seperate quotes and answers! I know- I'm an idiot when it comes to doing anything extra like quotes and such.



quote Veronika
quote Firefly4ever
I don't think that there was willful neglect of the baby by anyone- they probably had no idea that the dog was capable of this.
Pardon...but now who's being unrealistic?? You don't leave a baby unattended. Simple as that.

MY RESPONSE: How am I being unrealistic? I just stated that I didn't believe there was willful neglect. People leave babies alone to sleep all the time with nothing more then a baby monitor. How do single mothers who live alone ever get anything done- like showering- if they can't leave their baby sleeping and monitor them with a baby monitor? Yes- with animals around its shouldn't be done- but she probably had no idea that she was taking a risk.

quote
Veronika- I repect your opinion, but have to say that your comparisons are really not valid. Theres a differnce between a toddler accidentally killing a sibling, or an old woman who isn't in her right mind unknowingly killing a newborn, and this dog. The toddler and Old woman had absolutely no intention of causing death- this dog had every intention of killing this infant. Theres a huge difference in the three examples. This dog attacked this baby and meant to kill it. And to say that you hope the parents feel terrible about this is a very cruel statement to make. Maybe it was ignorance, but I doubt it was intentional. As much as I love dogs- the baby is the important factor in this incident.
I disagree because my entire post was that....well,SIMPLY, my point was that new born babies are very delicate and they can die just like that, by a toddler, a dog, or even a very gentle dog.

MY RESPONSE: Yes - they are delicate, but the point you seemed to be making was that there was no difference between accidental death by a toddler or an old woman and a dog who willfully attacks with the intention to kill. Theres a huge difference. If I misinterpreted the statements you were making, I apologize- thats my mistake, but it really seemed you were saying that the death by the dog was just an innocent mistake on the dogs part like a toddler/old woman- and it wasn't.


quote
No and I repeat No domestic dog should ever attack a child or person unprovoked as this dog did. This was a violent attack that ended the life of a baby. Dogs can tell the difference between a squeaky toy and a baby. Most family dogs understand that a baby is a small person to be watched over and protected. I've seen this time and time again in families with children. On the other hand- no baby or child should ever be left unsupervised with a dog- even one known to be gentle- unless the child really knows how to treat a dog.
The bold part is the only part I agree with.

MY RESPONSE: Does that mean that you think its ok for a dog to attack with absolutely no provacation or threat towards itself!? That this is normal and acceptable behavior in a family dog? Or that the dog can't tell the difference between a squeaky toy and a child?!! I mean the scent alone would tell the dog that this was not a toy! Also there are plenty of stories of dogs being protective towards children and babies- why don't you believe that? Dogs are pack animals and in a pack the youngest are protected. You like to talk about how dogs don't think and only act on instinct- well thats a deeply ingrained instinct.

quote
It is unacceptable to keep a dog around who has violently attacked anyone unprovoked and to pass that dog on to another person is irresponsible. I don't like the idea of having to put a dog down either- but sometimes its necessary.
I'm not sure...but you just contradicted yourself. You say that a baby should not be unattended, gentle dog or not, and yet here you say it's not the persons fault because the dog did it. In this case where it concerns a baby, well, yeah, it is the responsibility of the guardian.

MY RESPONSE: I'm still trying to see where I contridicted myself....yes, a baby or child should not be left alone with dogs and the person is partly responsible- but that doesn't mean that the dog is innocent. This dog was vicous and deadly.

quote
If you really want to be concerned about animals being put down- think of the thousands of perfectly good dogs and cats put down every year because there aren't enough homes to go around and people irresponsibly don't have their animals neutered and spayed. Thats a real tragedy.
You don't think I know this?
Besides, I think people are doing a fantastic job by spaying/neutering their pets. Excellent! Its especially great when they give FREE services to the owners who can't find time and money.

MY RESPONSE: If people were doing such a great job spaying and neutering there wouldn't be so many puppies and kittens in the shelters. Our dog was left with her 7 siblings in a cardboard box at the Humane society. I do agree that more people are being responsible and getting their animals fixed- but we're definitely not where we need to be on this issue. Hope it continues to get better! Though I have to say- that if people don't have the time or the money to have a dog or cat- they probably shouldn't have one at all as time and money are whats needed to properly care for a pet.


quote
I'm sorry, but a dog isn't just an unthinking, mindless creature of instinct- if they were, they wouldn't be living with us. They are thinking, breathing, living creatures who can learn and know what is acceptable and what is not. No not the same as people- but they generally know what is allowed. Any dog that crosses that line can not be trusted again. You can't sit down and reason with and rehabilitate a dog that has done something like this. This dog has forfeited its right to live. I feel horrible about that- but sometimes things suck and everything can't always be rainbows and butterflys.
Yes it can be...if we are responsible and take responsibility for our actions. That's the first step of catching that rainbow into a better future. I'm personally a pessimist but overall, I'd like to keep optimistic in people.

And as for the dog, sorry, I am not going to agree with you on the dog being able to "think"...if so, why aren't they talking and reading the newspaper, voting, etc...
Please, the capacity of a dogs brain is limited, just like any animal. They act, that's why like you said, they can also be trained to do violence. Domestic or not. Even domestic dogs can be violent.

MY RESPONSE: The litmus test for being able to think is not just talking, reading and voting...etc.. there are different kinds of thinking. I don't know- I just don't like the idea that my dog and cats can't think at all. I've seen them work out problems and solve them. We left a peanut butter jar out once and our dog worked on the same area of the cover until she worked it off and got to the goody inside! How did she know she would be successful if she worked on the same area instead of biting unthinkingly around the whole thing. How did she even know which end to work on? We never taught her. Maybe just coincidence huh? Well how about when she got a hold of some cream savers hard candy in their individual wrappers? She didn't just chomp down on it like you would expect her too as an animal who can't think- she very carefully held onto it- put a slit into it and worked the candy out- leaving nothing behind but a wrapper with one neat slit on the end. She was neater at it then I am!! How about other animals- gorillas, chimps, dolphins...etc..none of them can think? If they can't think, and only act on instinct, then how could they ever feel love, affection or dislike- is it all just instinct?! God...I hope not.

quote
Sure, sometimes the fault can lie with people- and some have even been prosecuted for it. (the case where the 2 dogs killed the woman in an apt. building) Some dogs are encouraged to be aggressive by people. The tragedy is that even though some dogs got that way through human intervention and training- the dog pays the ultimate price in the end. These dogs can rarely be rehabilitated- watch any of the "Animal Precinct" or cop shows on animal planet- these people do all they can to help these dogs, but the ones that are so aggressive and so far gone are usually put down. Pit bulls that have been trained to fight have that aggression so deeply imbedded in them- that most times theres no use to even try to help them- they try to attack every dog they see, and aren't safe for people either.
Well, this is the only time in which you actually felt pity for the dog and blamed the responsibility for the owners "aggressive" training than the dogs themselves...

MY RESPONSE: DO NOT put words in my mouth. I never said I didn't feel pity for the dog! It breaks my heart, but a dog that attacks violently (with the exception of a dog that is being harrassed) still must be put down. Not all attacks are because of irresponsible people. I've mentioned this before- we had a dog that killed our other dog- Penny- who we had for 13 years. Snapped her neck. The attacking dog- Brigette had never, ever been encouraged or trained to be aggressive and had never once given any indication that she would be violent. Theres no way that she was threatened by Penny-who was smaller, older and slower then her either. Were we supposed to wait and see if she would kill our other dog, the cat or attack one of us? Of course not. This happened in 1989 and I can still be brought to tears thinking about it- we lost 2 dogs. Are you saying that it was our fault??!! Just because I think violent dogs should be put down, doesn't mean that I don't cry when it has to be done- I do.

quote
Of course this dog may have never given any indication that it could be violent, but it crossed that line- viciously and violently and therefore sealed its own fate. Theres a difference between attacking a hedgehog/squirrel/muskrat/raccoon....ect...compared to attacking a human baby or a person, and if the dog doesn't know the difference (the majority of dogs do) then unfortunately that dog should be euthanized. Yes- I do hold that dog responsible for its actions.
I dont know...some of your posts are contradictory...I liked the fact that you stated in bold.

MY RESPONSE: Please tell me how I'm contridicting myself!


quote
Like I said- no family pet or domestic dog should ever do this, even if their supposedly acting on "instinct" (whatever thats supposed to mean)- it cannot be tolerated. Maybe some would feel different if it was their childs flesh or their own that was torn and ripped by sharp teeth- chunks taken off of arms trying to protect the head and face, teeth ripping through cheeks, an eye punctured and lost, hair and skin pulled off the scalp by teeth- oozing blood- and a throat viciously torn at in an attempt to kill you or your child. Is this a dog I want around? Not in a million years.
This wouldn't have happened if the owner/guardian had been responsible. No child should be left unattended or left alone with dogs, trained or not.
What a lazy excuse just to do something other than watch the baby or lock up the dogs elsewhere.
MY RESPONSE: I do agree that it wouldn't have happened if the the dog had been unable to get where the baby was and the adult is responsible for that, but the dog still crossed that line. Any dog who crosses that line must be put down, whether by instinct or not, its not acceptable. This person I'm sure will blame themselves their whole life for what happened, not only for the loss of a baby, but the loss of the dog as well.

Sorry such a long post- I do get wordy at times!! I really do repect your opinions Veronika- you make some good points here and on animal rights. I don't think we're going to agree on this one- but thats ok! You have a very caring heart and I'm glad that you try to keep an optimistic view about people. Its easy not to at times! Any animal you may have or will have in the future will be very lucky to have you!!

This message was edited by Firefly4ever on Nov 05 2004.

This message was edited by Firefly4ever on Nov 05 2004.

This message was edited by Firefly4ever on Nov 08 2004.

This message was edited by Firefly4ever on Nov 08 2004.



Nov 04, 04 at 8:57pm
Veronika


quote Firefly4ever
I don't think that there was willful neglect of the baby by anyone- they probably had no idea that the dog was capable of this.
Pardon...but now who's being unrealistic?? You don't leave a baby unattended. Simple as that.
quote
Veronika- I repect your opinion, but have to say that your comparisons are really not valid. Theres a differnce between a toddler accidentally killing a sibling, or an old woman who isn't in her right mind unknowingly killing a newborn, and this dog. The toddler and Old woman had absolutely no intention of causing death- this dog had every intention of killing this infant. Theres a huge difference in the three examples. This dog attacked this baby and meant to kill it. And to say that you hope the parents feel terrible about this is a very cruel statement to make. Maybe it was ignorance, but I doubt it was intentional. As much as I love dogs- the baby is the important factor in this incident.
I disagree because my entire post was that....well,SIMPLY, my point was that new born babies are very delicate and they can die just like that, by a toddler, a dog, or even a very gentle dog.


quote
No and I repeat No domestic dog should ever attack a child or person unprovoked as this dog did. This was a violent attack that ended the life of a baby. Dogs can tell the difference between a squeaky toy and a baby. Most family dogs understand that a baby is a small person to be watched over and protected. I've seen this time and time again in families with children. On the other hand- no baby or child should ever be left unsupervised with a dog- even one known to be gentle- unless the child really knows how to treat a dog.
The bold part is the only part I agree with.

quote
It is unacceptable to keep a dog around who has violently attacked anyone unprovoked and to pass that dog on to another person is irresponsible. I don't like the idea of having to put a dog down either- but sometimes its necessary.
I'm not sure...but you just contradicted yourself. You say that a baby should not be unattended, gentle dog or not, and yet here you say it's not the persons fault because the dog did it. In this case where it concerns a baby, well, yeah, it is the responsibility of the guardian.
quote
If you really want to be concerned about animals being put down- think of the thousands of perfectly good dogs and cats put down every year because there aren't enough homes to go around and people irresponsibly don't have their animals neutered and spayed. Thats a real tragedy.
You don't think I know this?
Besides, I think people are doing a fantastic job by spaying/neutering their pets. Excellent! Its especially great when they give FREE services to the owners who can't find time and money.
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I'm sorry, but a dog isn't just an unthinking, mindless creature of instinct- if they were, they wouldn't be living with us. They are thinking, breathing, living creatures who can learn and know what is acceptable and what is not. No not the same as people- but they generally know what is allowed. Any dog that crosses that line can not be trusted again. You can't sit down and reason with and rehabilitate a dog that has done something like this. This dog has forfeited its right to live. I feel horrible about that- but sometimes things suck and everything can't always be rainbows and butterflys.
Yes it can be...if we are responsible and take responsibility for our actions. That's the first step of catching that rainbow into a better future. I'm personally a pessimist but overall, I'd like to keep optimistic in people.

And as for the dog, sorry, I am not going to agree with you on the dog being able to "think"...if so, why aren't they talking and reading the newspaper, voting, etc...
Please, the capacity of a dogs brain is limited, just like any animal. They act, that's why like you said, they can also be trained to do violence. Domestic or not. Even domestic dogs can be violent.

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Sure, sometimes the fault can lie with people- and some have even been prosecuted for it. (the case where the 2 dogs killed the woman in an apt. building) Some dogs are encouraged to be aggressive by people. The tragedy is that even though some dogs got that way through human intervention and training- the dog pays the ultimate price in the end. These dogs can rarely be rehabilitated- watch any of the "Animal Precinct" or cop shows on animal planet- these people do all they can to help these dogs, but the ones that are so aggressive and so far gone are usually put down. Pit bulls that have been trained to fight have that aggression so deeply imbedded in them- that most times theres no use to even try to help them- they try to attack every dog they see, and aren't safe for people either.
Well, this is the only time in which you actually felt pity for the dog and blamed the responsibility for the owners "aggressive" training than the dogs themselves...

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Of course this dog may have never given any indication that it could be violent, but it crossed that line- viciously and violently and therefore sealed its own fate. Theres a difference between attacking a hedgehog/squirrel/muskrat/raccoon....ect...compared to attacking a human baby or a person, and if the dog doesn't know the difference (the majority of dogs do) then unfortunately that dog should be euthanized. Yes- I do hold that dog responsible for its actions.
I dont know...some of your posts are contradictory...I liked the fact that you stated in bold.

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Like I said- no family pet or domestic dog should ever do this, even if their supposedly acting on "instinct" (whatever thats supposed to mean)- it cannot be tolerated. Maybe some would feel different if it was their childs flesh or their own that was torn and ripped by sharp teeth- chunks taken off of arms trying to protect the head and face, teeth ripping through cheeks, an eye punctured and lost, hair and skin pulled off the scalp by teeth- oozing blood- and a throat viciously torn at in an attempt to kill you or your child. Is this a dog I want around? Not in a million years.
This wouldn't have happened if the owner/guardian had been responsible. No child should be left unattended or left alone with dogs, trained or not.
What a lazy excuse just to do something other than watch the baby or lock up the dogs elsewhere.




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