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hideOriginal Post

Oct 08, 12 at 4:10pmIsilwen


I guess this is aimed mostly towards the UK as our police force aren't armed with firearms, only in certain circumstances. This piece of sad news prompted this thread, which I'm sure pretty much everyone in the UK has heard about. Here it is for others too:

quote BBC News
Two unarmed female police officers have been killed in a gun and grenade attack in Greater Manchester, which led to the arrest of a wanted man.

PC Nicola Hughes, 23, and PC Fiona Bone, 32, were called to Abbey Gardens in Mottram to investigate what turned out to be a false report of a burglary.

Police said it appeared they had been deliberately "drawn" to the scene.

Dale Cregan, 29, has been arrested in connection with the officers' deaths and two previous murders.

He was detained when he walked into Hyde police station a short time after the incident.

Greater Manchester Police Chief Constable Sir Peter Fahy said someone had made a call alleging a burglary had been committed and when the officers arrived they were attacked with a gun and a grenade.

He said: "We believe he has made the call, or somebody else has made the call, and it would appear for the purposes of drawing these two officers to that particular scene, and then he has come out and shot and killed them both.

"Certainly it would appear to be that he has deliberately done this in an act of absolutely cold-blooded murder."

A witness at the scene in Tameside reported hearing 13 gunshots and an explosion shortly before 11:00 BST.
Full story here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19635239

What do you guys think? Should police officers carry firearms at all times when knife and gun crime seems to be ever increasing in the UK?

It seems like every week there's news of a stabbing or shooting somewhere in the country. Of course the situation in question seemed to be a routine call that didn't require the officers to be armed but would they still be here today if they had been carrying firearms anyway? I can't help but wonder.

There are arguments against this, for example the incident with Jean Charles de Menezes who was shot dead by a Met firearms officer after he was wrongly identified as a terrorist. Also the idea of police being less approchable to the public, the cost of arming every officer and training them, all these things come into play.

When I hear stories like the one in question it makes me think that police officers should be more effectivley armed, something more effective than tazers and truncheons anyway.

What does everyone else think?

Thread Recap (last 10 posts from newest to oldest)

Oct 14, 12 at 11:48pm
KR_1250


quote Short Circuit
Americans seem to have a very strange relationship with guns. I don't understand the whole "guns are cool" phenomenon where they fawn over them like toys.
Though i do agree that America has a bizarre and OTT relationship with guns i do find them quite interesting. I love cars, motorbikes, and technology and machinery of all kinds. Guns use very interesting technology and I like the idea of competative shooting and target practice.

But it apparently doesnt work. Its ashame we couldnt use guns in a purely recreational way but it doesnt seem to be the case. Humans cant be trusted with them.

And a lot of the violence sorounding guns is due to some issue with American culture. If you look at gun crime satistics for different countries the US is closer to third world levels of gun violence even though several 1st world countries also have legal gun ownership.

It was a question put forward in "Bowling For Columbine". Why does America have such high gun crime? Not one person answered "Because we have too many guns?"

This concept seems to be ignored or misundesrstood in the US. I mean the US fatality rate per 100,000 citizens due to Guns is higher than some countries who are currently in the midst of a civil war. That surprised me. Infact the US is sorounded on all sides by third world countries in this department. Kind of like its third world attitude to execution.

Infact if you check out this map showing all the countries who still practice state driven murder you will notice the US shares much more in common than just gun crime with its so called enemies:



(The Blue is countries who have rejected state sponsored murder. The Red are those countries where it is still commonly practiced. The other colours denote varying levels of rejection or use in extreme circumstances.)

The US and the middle east. Guns, Execution and God. Irony.



Oct 14, 12 at 12:54am
Aurora


quote magsasaka
yes they do.
as i heard on the radio, the UK police are naive

i'm surprised crooks havent taken advantage so much of this case
if they have guns, you and i as a citizen shouldnt have anything to be afraid from as long as we conform to the law
the gun is especially only for the crooks.

That's very naive as well, though.



Oct 13, 12 at 9:02am
thetwilight


They should be trained to wrestle more effectively and dress in more intimidating costumes.



Oct 13, 12 at 8:53am
Short Circuit


quote KR_1250
And its pretty ignorant of the media to use this case as a reason to bring in more armed officers. The nutter who shot these women lured them to their death with a fake robbery story then ambushed them with firearms and a hand grenade. These officers could have been carrying bazooka's and they still may never have fired a shot off. Its underhanded of the media to use this case as a pro-gun example.
This. This so much.

I'm not trying to be racist or derogatory, but Americans seem to have a very strange relationship with guns. I don't understand the whole "guns are cool" phenomenon where they fawn over them like toys. Police troopers seem to whip them out at a moment's notice.

We have armed officers in Australia, but it's much more reserved. I've met and spoken to quite a few police officers, and I was once told by one of them that he'd never actually had to unholster his firearm.



Oct 13, 12 at 6:54am
PokemonPalkia789


I think they should but i think one policeman killed a person because he/she hit him...I say the policemen/women they trust should be armed but the idiots that cannot be trusted or are crazy...maybe not...



Oct 13, 12 at 2:53am
magsasaka


yes they do.
as i heard on the radio, the UK police are naive

i'm surprised crooks havent taken advantage so much of this case
if they have guns, you and i as a citizen shouldnt have anything to be afraid from as long as we conform to the law
the gun is especially only for the crooks.

a gun and a baton are the same unless theyre used. and if they were, the other is more effective in certain situations..



Oct 09, 12 at 6:16am
harbin


No because this will escalate the issue. Shooting incidents are rare in the UK and regular beat-bobbies have no need for guns, nor do traffic police. They went to investigate a burglary, and if there was knowledge that the gunman had a gun, then armed response would've been sent.

In the event that these two policewomen had guns, even then they would've still got shot and killed since they had no knowledge that the gunman in this case had a gun, what would've happened then is that the gunman would've had two more guns to his collection.

Most cops carry at most a taser gun yet need clearance to use it, at the very least they carry a baton. From what I understand, most cops do not want the responsibility of carrying a gun. If such a case is needed then armed response is sent. Thing is, this is blown up by the same media that critcise the police for excessive use of force.

If anything, greater gun control would be needed. I believe you need a firearm license to own a gun anyway, but the average person should not need a gun anyway.



Oct 09, 12 at 4:12am
Aurora


No, I don't think so. Incidents like this are extremely rare in the U.K, so changing a major policy because of it doesn't make much sense. No one really wants them to be armed, either, besides a tiny minority of the public.

Also, not sure if anyone here has already mentioned this, but being armed will NOT stop you from being unexpectedly blown up on a burglary call, i.e. it would've made absolutely no difference to these two officers.



Oct 09, 12 at 2:29am
KR_1250


quote hiigaran
wait, are you guys implying that UK cops dont even carry a handgun? that sounds a little scary, knowing that the police arent armed.
Yeah, the vast majority of UK cops do not carry any kind of lethal firearm. Every county or area force has its own armed response squads though who do carry and are trained in using firearms. We also have armed guards at various transport hubs and undisclosed checkpoints in various cities. The public AND police themselves have undertaken many polls through the years all of which overwhelmingly argue against the typical beat police carrying guns.

The upside of this is that the vast, vast majority of UK criminals do not carry firearms either. This is why it is not scary in the slightest. I feel much safer because of that. A point which cannot be and is never emphasised enough.

Any time a unique incident such as this comes up the media and scared people start shitting themselves. These incidents are few and far between and in any case you cannot simply drive policy solely by the exceptions to the rule.

One look at statictics like these and the thought of more firearms in this country terrifies me:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list



Oct 09, 12 at 1:56am
hiigaran


wait, are you guys implying that UK cops dont even carry a handgun? that sounds a little scary, knowing that the police arent armed.

the title is MORE heavily armed, so...i dunno

in any case, this is why non lethal weapons like tasers are useful.



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