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AD Carry Mage Jungler Support Top Lane

hideOriginal Post

Sep 21, 12 at 3:47pm


Does this sound any good?

1. Berserker's Greaves (Boots, +25% speed)
2. B.F. Sword (+45 AD)
3. Upgrade B.F. Sword to The Black Cleaver (+55 AD)
4. Another B.F. Sword
5. Upgrade B.F. sword to Infinity Edge (+80 AD)
6. Another B.F. Sword
7. Upgrade to another Infinity Edge
8. Another B.F. Sword
9. Upgrade to Bloodthirster (+60 AD)
10. If I have enough time to get a sixth item, it will be of my choice. (Possibly another Infinity Edge if I get super fed)

Thread Recap (last 10 posts from newest to oldest)

Sep 24, 12 at 5:25am
Tashur Astur


quote Lorx
Go back and check the Season 1 Championship.

Upper bracket final, aAa vs Fnatic, carries bought:
  • Catalyst
  • Manamune
  • Banshee
  • 2 BT
  • HoG
TSM vs Epik 4th place match:
  • Zeal before finishing IE
  • Banshee
aAa vs TSM 3rd place match:
  • Negatron Cloak as a third item
  • Madred's Bloodrazor
Fnatic vs aAa Championship match:
  • Banshee
  • Banasee
S1 site

Also, the person here who wanted help is playing Yi, who should not be building what you suggested verbatim anyway. YGb, nowhere mentioned in your posts, but core for most any good AD Yi. You should be attempting to critique his Yi build, and help him make it better, not copy/pasting the ADC Build that everybody already knows.
I know this which is why I said season 2, concerning Yi, Yi should be built as an AD carry unless you're going AP which this thread wasn't about in the first place so I really don't see the irrelevance



Sep 23, 12 at 7:09pm
Bass Ultra


Merc Threads > Youmuu's Ghost Blade > Frozen Mallet > Last Whisper > Atma's Impaler > Situational.

I dunno, just jumbled all the things said in this thread.

Might need more attack speed, could delay Last Whisper until later and buy Wit's End first. But with this you'll have an okay amount of AD, crit, and be moderately tanky.



Sep 23, 12 at 6:13pm
WakeCraterWind


In terms of deviating from the normal ADC build, Frozen Mallet is a great way to gain some much needed survivablity in the mid-game, letting you transition more smoothly into the late-game terror mode that Yi so desperately needs to get to. Frozen Mallet also lets you secure more kills with it's permaslow, and it artificially increases your DPS by far more than it's AD bonus lists, because most people are going to be running away when a Yi jumps them, so that slow reduces the time Yi has to run to catch up on fleeing enemies by a lot, therefore increasing his DPS in these situations tremendously.



Sep 23, 12 at 3:11pm
Lorx


quote Tashur Astur
quote Lorx
Except pro players also make sure to say "this is a base build, modify it for your needs in a game, both in response to what enemies you face, what carry you chose, what your team is, and especially your laning situation once the game has started".
You seem to be missing my point which is fair enough, these items are the most effective, what it means that you should modify the build as needed is simply situational item orders, laning phase situationals and the choice in defensive items/trinity or PD. You rarely even see pro players get anything other than the 5 items I mentioned, with very few exceptions that usually involve a black cleaver, wriggle's lantern or executioner's calling(since the lifesteal nerf, very costeffective and powerful item after IE). No games in season 2 tournies have involved a Madred's Bloodrazor on the ADC. Why? Simply because you don't buy magic penetration and as a result the damage it deals to the tanks, which is what it's supposed to shred, is reduced by so much that it's almost not feelable.
Go back and check the Season 1 Championship.

Upper bracket final, aAa vs Fnatic, carries bought:
  • Catalyst
  • Manamune
  • Banshee
  • 2 BT
  • HoG
TSM vs Epik 4th place match:
  • Zeal before finishing IE
  • Banshee
aAa vs TSM 3rd place match:
  • Negatron Cloak as a third item
  • Madred's Bloodrazor
Fnatic vs aAa Championship match:
  • Banshee
  • Banasee
S1 site

Also, the person here who wanted help is playing Yi, who should not be building what you suggested verbatim anyway. YGb, nowhere mentioned in your posts, but core for most any good AD Yi. You should be attempting to critique his Yi build, and help him make it better, not copy/pasting the ADC Build that everybody already knows.



Sep 23, 12 at 9:47am
WakeCraterWind


quote ShadowCrystallux
Then wouldn't it be smarter to go BG, IE, BT, LW, PD, GA then? Because it sounds like the average AP and AD carries will still be susceptible to the easily stackable bloodthirster at that point. You're trading with another AD carry, they bought LW, you bought BT and it's half stacked, who's gonna win? The latter obviously.
No, not really. IE and PD maximizes your damage output for pretty much ALL AD carries. Sure, you'll get around 80 AD and some lifesteal more out of Bloodthirster, but that pales in comparison to the huge attack speed, movement speed, and critcal chance boost you get from IE + Phantom Dancer. Optimal damage output is almost always IE then Phantom Dancer.

Keep also in mind that between Bloothirster and LW, most champions have a base of 60 ~ 90 armor at level 18. This includes champions like Heimerdinger, remember. An average AD carry will 72 base armor at lv 18, plus Aegis if the other team is decent, plus 13 armor from runes and 6 from masteries to give a total of 103 armor. You basically need a fully stacked Bloodthirster (actually, 98.86 AD from BT) to equal a Last Whisper in terms of damage on any given enemy AD carry.

This is not counting the huge advantage building LW over BT on enemy tanks and bruisers who are often the only safe target for AD carries at the time. And hey, you have auto-attacks to spare. If you can chunk the tank down, and no one better in in range, then who's going to protect the carries now?


And Tashur Arthur is right. You're rarely, if ever, going to be straight-up dueling the enemy AD carry. Positioning, vision, and whoever gets the first strike will matter far more than the dueling potential that BT will have over LW. And this is assuming the BT is fully stacked. If BT is, say, halfway stacked, the enemy needs only 62 armor for LW to start being more effective. Heimerdinger has a base armor of 60, and he's known for his atrocious base stats.



Sep 23, 12 at 9:14am
Grimdark


quote Tashur Astur
Oh god please PLEASE don't ever buy a bloodrazor on AD champs... There's a reason no pro players do it, the damage you deal is so low since you don't buy magic penetration with it. It's so much more valuable to go the universal AD build which is this:
IE
PD or Trinity(on Corki/Ez, although PD still works fine)
LW
BT
Defensive item of choice, either of the three:
Banshee's veil, Quicksilver Sash or Guardian Angel.
It is the most effective build, it's not for lolz that pro players go this.
The bloodrazor's 4% max hp damage is very valuable if the enemy's tank is posing a problem. I oftentimes buy a Force of Nature one someone like, Akali, so that the hp regen is fast enough that I don't have to recall unless necessary/I die/to buy something. I occasionally build Thornmail on Yi just for a similar reason of actually surviving being focused by another physical damage character during a team fight or such.



Sep 23, 12 at 8:43am
Tashur Astur


You generally want PD second item disregarding boots, it gives you alot of mobility with the 12%MS and also the Crit/AS.

Also you're right that ADC vs ADC the one with BT wins, the thing is though that you'll practically never be in a position like that. Usually the ADC has to focus the tank which is why you get LW.



Sep 23, 12 at 8:34am
ShadowCrystallux


Then wouldn't it be smarter to go BG, IE, BT, LW, PD, GA then? Because it sounds like the average AP and AD carries will still be susceptible to the easily stackable bloodthirster at that point. You're trading with another AD carry, they bought LW, you bought BT and it's half stacked, who's gonna win? The latter obviously.



Sep 23, 12 at 8:12am
Tashur Astur


quote Lorx
Except pro players also make sure to say "this is a base build, modify it for your needs in a game, both in response to what enemies you face, what carry you chose, what your team is, and especially your laning situation once the game has started".
You seem to be missing my point which is fair enough, these items are the most effective, what it means that you should modify the build as needed is simply situational item orders, laning phase situationals and the choice in defensive items/trinity or PD. You rarely even see pro players get anything other than the 5 items I mentioned, with very few exceptions that usually involve a black cleaver, wriggle's lantern or executioner's calling(since the lifesteal nerf, very costeffective and powerful item after IE). No games in season 2 tournies have involved a Madred's Bloodrazor on the ADC. Why? Simply because you don't buy magic penetration and as a result the damage it deals to the tanks, which is what it's supposed to shred, is reduced by so much that it's almost not feelable.



Sep 23, 12 at 8:00am
WakeCraterWind


quote ShadowCrystallux
LW > BT? Don't make me laugh . If they build a thormail, you're gonna kill yourself if you have LW instead of BT. Also, you won't be 3 shotting the adc, support and apc like you're meant to.
You should take a look at this article.

Last Whisper vs Bloothirster

Basically, the conclusion of the article is that Last Whisper beats a un-stacked Bloothirster at armor levels above 30, and beats a fully stacked bloodthirster at armor levels above 100. TBH, if you're jumping on a carry who would not build past 100 armor as Yi, it's really not going to matter much whether you have a LW or a BT if you have your Infinity Edge and Phantom Dancer, you're still going to kill them in four hits pretty much no matter what. On the other hand, if you're fighting a tankier person, that Last Whisper will end up beating up Bloodthirster in damage.

About lifesteal:

quote DifftheEnder
A major component of The Bloodthirster is the Lifesteal. In all realistic situations, you will heal for more per hit with a Bloodthirster than having a Last Whisper+ Vamp. Scepter. The difference is quite significant. You will heal for anywhere between 20% and 146% more per hit with Bloodthirster depending on how stacked it is and how much armor the enemy has. I find this argument to be pointless however. The Last Whisper costs a full 710 gold less than the Bloodthirster. If Lifesteal is really that important for you at that portion of the game, a second Vampiric Scepter or an Executioner's Calling or even a Zeke's Herald (on a support) can be bought to temporarily have a comparable lifesteal value.
Basically, at the time of the game when you buy it, as a 3rd item, LW is by far the better choice. Bloodthirster may make a very good 5th or 6th item, but it's not required like LW is.



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