Thread titleFromLast replied
Now searching...
Neoseeker Forums » » » » Super Smash Bros. 3DS/Wii U » My Roster: First Dose (edited) » Post Reply

Note to Guests: For the enjoyment of other visitors, and to help keep this forum tidy and working smoothly, please make sure you search the forum before posting your question.
REPLY TO A THREAD
Name:* Members, please LOGIN before posting
Email: We use this to display your Gravatar

Sign in with
Subject:*
Message:*


HTML is not allowed
markup is allowed

Help with markup tags

Enabling Buttons in IE7




Smilies:
  ·all smilies here
:) :P ;) :( :| ;( :D :confused: :cool: :# :o ^_^ :colored: :thick:
Community Badges

Join to get access to all the badges!

Game and Watch Bowser Bowser Jr Captain Falcon Charizard Dark Pit Diddy Kong Donkey Kong Doctor Mario Duck Hunt Falco Fox Ganondorf Greninja Ike Jigglypuff King Dedede Kirby Link Little Mac Lucario Lucina Luigi Mario Marth Mega Man Meta Knight Ness Olimar Pac-Man Palutena Peach Pikachu Pit ROB Robin Rosalina Samus Sheik Shulk Sonic Toon Link Villager Wario Wii Fit Trainer Yoshi Zelda Zero Suit Samus Animal Crossing Donkey Kong Earthbound Fire Emblem F Zero Game and Watch Ice Climber Kid Icarus Kirby Mario Mega Man Metal Gear Metroid Pikmin Pokemon ROB Sonic Starfox Warioware Wii Fit Yoshi Legend of Zelda Bowser Captain Falcon Charizard King Dedede Diddy Kong Donkey Kong Doctor Mario Duck Hunt Falco Fox Ganondorf Game and Watch Ice Climbers Ike Ivysaur Jigglypuff Kirby Link Punch-Out Lucario Lucas Luigi Mario Marth Meta Knight Mewtwo Ness Olimar Pac-Man Peach Pichu Pikachu Pit Pokemon Trainer ROB Roy Samus Sheik Xenoblade Snake Sonic Squirtle Smash Bros Toon Link Wario Wolf Yoshi Young Link Zelda Zero Suit Samus

hideOriginal Post

Jul 11, 12 at 9:02amNapoleonDos


edit: I've switched just a few characters around, and added a DLC list

*I've but my introduction at the end, as it became very long


I've been reading a lot of facts which don't seem to be on this forum, so perhaps in the future I will go MLA format and bring in these quotations from Sakurai, etc (after all, the man eats and breathes these games, we get so little of his words on them and just assume he never speaks day to day? It fits the Japanese stereotype but alas---- I won't get too racist because then I'll never get to my list).

Mario, Paper Mario, Bowser, Luigi, Peach

Yoshi, Birdo

Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, King K Rool

Link, Zelda, Vaati, Ganondorf

Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Zoroark

Samus, Sylux

Fox, Falco

Kirby, Metaknight, Yarn Kirby

Pit, Dark Pit

Marth, Ike

Captain Falcon, Samurai Goroh

Ness
Ice Climbers
Takamaru
Olimar
Mr. Game & Watch
Balloon Fighter
Andy
Isaac
Little Mac
Tom Nook
Fitness Mii
Pacman
Megaman

DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT TO ADD LATER (a few series' to get very unexpected or unseen characters to this date-- in any game)
Bowser Jr, Wario, Waluigi, Tiny Kong
Wolf Link/Midna
Pokemon Trainer, Mewtwo
Ridley, ZSS
Krystal
King Dedede, Starfy
Palutena, Michaiah, Lucas
Rayman, Bomberman, Yoshimitsu

Premises this is based on:
-My own visualization of how the series has thus far progressed, and the shift it will undertake to go from 'Pinnacle SSB game with everything included' to 'Being developed by a third party to bring a new game to a top selling series'
-Contents from Sakurai himself, either characters he had said he wanted to include, roster size, or missing components. Since Ridley has remained missing for a long time, I can at best imagine a boss pack, where he would be available alongside Mewtwo, Ganondorf, and King Boo.
-Nintendo's trends, including the shift from Blue Ocean Marketing in prior generations, the rivalry PlayStation All Stars Battle Royale (PSASBR) will bring to the table
-My deepest wishes mixed with the common sense that Meowth, though slated for SSB64, will probably never make it. Until we get the news for Downloadable Content

The 'dream list' aspect of this list, btw, was severely hindered trying to stick to 40 initial characters, which I don't believe could be surpassed with initial release thanks to a limited roster size. Again, DLC, and hopefully that will mean the game won't be out too long from now.

It will get more comprehensive in format and detail over time, but PLEASE do contest me on this, I love to debate.

Thread Recap (last 10 posts from newest to oldest)

Jul 29, 12 at 2:02am
BlueLore


quote
The Metroid is not a character, nor is the Nintendog. It is an Assist Trophy, it assists you as a maneuver from a Nintendo game. I dont think you can actually make a case for the Nintendog being a character choice, so unless you come up with some examples of that I think this point is finished.
Are you saying they are no video game characters,but more of a video game species?Or do you mean they are no playable characters in brawl?

If it is the first case:
Well where is the problem?Pikachu and jigglypuff are no real characters either,they are a species of pokemon.and there is no indication wether they are meant to be a specific one,some might argue that they are the ones from the anime,but on the one hand is the anime non-canon and on the other hand we have pikachu who comes out of a pokeball.

Also what about characters like dr.kawashima?he has his own series with multiple games,everything someone needs to be in smash bros.....except for fighting skills.

quote
The following characters beg to disagree, having been added to a sequel game after they existed as characters. I'll even bet I'm missing some.
Bowser, Peach, Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Falco, Wolf, Metaknight, King Dedede, Lucas, Diddy Kong, Olimar, Ike, Marth, Game and Watch, Ice Climbers, ROB, Pit.... I'm just gonna stop here.

of course there is also the matter about place for characters,since characters like bowser,peach,mewtu and pit were all planned for earlier games,but didn't make it because there wasn't any space/time left for them.
Not to mention that some characters were simply too unimportant to be included in earlier games(like wolf who only appeared in starfox 64 as a boss,with nearly no story relevance)
But they not even tried to include tom nook,there is no character data about him and we knew he wouldn't be a character,the moment we saw the animal crossing stage.
However the fact remains unchanged,that we got an ac-stage but no ac-chara.The only other franchises that did something like this are franchises who don't offer any possible characters at all,like the ds-chatroom.

also in some cases you are wrong.
Ike appeared first in FE9,but when melee came out there were only 5 fire emblem games(roys game wasn't even out,which was fire emblem 6)
lucas also appeared 5 years after melee


quote
A character would need to be on both games for it to fight on both games- that is how programming works. A character cannot exist on one game and magically appear on the other through the magic of nebula void.
why do you explain that?It is painfully obvious,that this is how it works and it has nothing to do with what I said.

quote
Aside from how potent Sakurai's statements towards the INTERACTIVITY of the games have registered since the games' announcement, I again repeat every reason I stated before as to why it is impractical for the games to not be fighting compatible.
again where would be the point in that?
The only real pro for this would be online play with friends who only have 3ds.Because offline play wouldn't profit from that,since the 3ds would act more like a controller(you would see your own character on the tv after all),like the gameboy advance did for some games on the gamecube,but you wouldn't need super smash bros.3ds game to make this possible.
The cons would be that they would release more or less the same game for two consoles and that they limit the wiiu-version with what the 3ds-version is capable of.
sakurai said he wants the 3ds-version to be more individual and customizable,so that you can customize your character on the 3ds version and upload him to your wiiu-version.That could be all we're getting in terms of interactivity.
Even if the two games are fighting compatible it could be simply limited to characters and stages that are avaliable on both versions and/or to custom characters.



Jul 28, 12 at 7:09pm
NapoleonDos


quote BlueLore
but that polar bear doesn't appear in a nintendo game
I mean the nintendog even appears in brawl as an assist trophy,so yeah it is regarded as a full fledged video game character.
The Metroid is not a character, nor is the Nintendog. It is an Assist Trophy, it assists you as a maneuver from a Nintendo game. I dont think you can actually make a case for the Nintendog being a character choice, so unless you come up with some examples of that I think this point is finished.

quote
All in all I think that if sakurai would ever consider tom nook,he would have included him already in brawl,since there we already have an animal crossing stage,but no animal crossing character.
The following characters beg to disagree, having been added to a sequel game after they existed as characters. I'll even bet I'm missing some.
Bowser, Peach, Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Falco, Wolf, Metaknight, King Dedede, Lucas, Diddy Kong, Olimar, Ike, Marth, Game and Watch, Ice Climbers, ROB, Pit.... I'm just gonna stop here.

You could make a case for about half of them, but ones like Metaknight? This just doesn't really make sense as an argument, that they would have appeared before.

quote BlueLore
why should they be playable together in the first place?
I mean if you have a wiiu,you will have most likely more than just one controller,making the 3ds unnecessary.
Also even if they have characters that can only be unlocked through connecting the versions,it doesn't mean that they both have to have said character.
For example if you'd unlock krystal on the 3ds if you connect the two games,it would only need to have the krystal data on the 3ds,not even on the wiiu,because all the 3ds would need to know would be "krystal is only unlocked if the games get connected".
The actual data for krystal would be on the 3ds from the beginning and she would be simply unlocked if the 3ds notices,it is connected to the wiiu-version.
A character would need to be on both games for it to fight on both games- that is how programming works. A character cannot exist on one game and magically appear on the other through the magic of nebula void. Aside from how potent Sakurai's statements towards the INTERACTIVITY of the games have registered since the games' announcement, I again repeat every reason I stated before as to why it is impractical for the games to not be fighting compatible.


I'll edit this later to tackle the inconsistencies of the next quotation.



Jul 26, 12 at 2:54am
BlueLore


quote
Honestly, no, this principle (that Nintendogs are just a gimmick based on REAL dogs, and have absolutely no personality or characterization as individuals) is completely different than referring to Tom Nook as a shop keeper or even Pikachu as an electric mouse- to add a Nintendog, which is a replacement to a real life pet (literall pet, not just a 'tamogatchi) would be flat out asking for claims of Nintendo supporting animal abuse and violence (which I'm guessing they are over after the ridiculous claims from the 90s towards Pokemon and dogfights). If they were to add a Nintendog, they might as well just add in a damned Polar Bear named Knut.
but that polar bear doesn't appear in a nintendo game
I mean the nintendog even appears in brawl as an assist trophy,so yeah it is regarded as a full fledged video game character.
All in all I think that if sakurai would ever consider tom nook,he would have included him already in brawl,since there we already have an animal crossing stage,but no animal crossing character.

quote
To be interactive, they have to interact. True, this does not mean they have to be playable- but seeing as the quintessential paradigm of SSB is to put our favorite characters in a rink together, it would be pretty ridiculous (and outrage even the slightest of fans) for them to not be playable versus each other, not to mention it would then yield much less profit for Nintendo (the lack of necessity to buy both, rather than one or the other). Certain characters may need to be unlocked on one version or the other (gotta catchem all, afterall), but the data still needs to be available on both or they will not, as I said, interact, just coexist.
why should they be playable together in the first place?
I mean if you have a wiiu,you will have most likely more than just one controller,making the 3ds unnecessary.
Also even if they have characters that can only be unlocked through connecting the versions,it doesn't mean that they both have to have said character.
For example if you'd unlock krystal on the 3ds if you connect the two games,it would only need to have the krystal data on the 3ds,not even on the wiiu,because all the 3ds would need to know would be "krystal is only unlocked if the games get connected".
The actual data for krystal would be on the 3ds from the beginning and she would be simply unlocked if the 3ds notices,it is connected to the wiiu-version.

quote
1- They are mere Easter Eggs. Just as Sakurai told us how to unlock everything secret online specifically because he knew we live in the age of internet spoilers, Id bet he depended on hackers seeing the files of the game. The characters that would suggest a roster of over 40 seem EXTRAORDINARILY improbable, particularly with Tetra, which if you are even considering was a true character at a point is to invalidate your claim that demi-minute characters appearing in one game of large series would even be considered.
2- I know my Mythology well (and how can you exclude Greek from this?), and my love of epicism and mythos is part of why I am so akin to both video games and specifically SSB. Palutena I can see as plausible. But that is about the only one. And it is just so expected that it is a bit dull.
3- The Subspace Emissary is littered with Nonplayable characters- from every boss, to the trophies, villains and background characters. If you don't know Kid Icarus, even if you know Brawl, I still think that Dark Pit is more iconic. He would seem like a clone, but then again how many characters do? I disagree with the principle but it is still the reality. If unfamiliar with the games of origin, all of the following characters would appear clones- Luigi, Toon Link, Falco, Wolf, Lucas, Jigglypuff (of kirby), Ganondorf, Marth, Ike-- perhaps even more. There is a bit of reliance to not rely on what commoners know- SSB is all for introducing fans to more characters.
4- Lucario isn't the mascot of the 4th generation, or at least was only made so by the fans after the release of the movie. But even that is really just to say 'the most popular,' not the mascot, which would be more equatable to Jigglypuff in gen one than Pikachu. The mascots are always Pikachu plus the starters.
5- Toon Link is only the celshaded Link, which is a handful of games. The rest of the Links are the main one in the series, which highly outnumbers his Toon form. I retract my statement on the chronology- you have proven me wrong in that regard (thank you for informing me, too). However, the most prevalent form of Link is still as an adult, numerically. Link appears as an adult more than as a child, and fewer times celshaded than.... pixelated (whatever the opposing form would be).
1.why should they include that data in the first place if it would be just easter eggs?I could understand it with characters from melee,but there is also data for characters like toon zelda/toon-sheik and dixiekong.
The mere fact that there is data about toon-sheik suggests,that they wanted to include toonzelda as a cheap clone of zelda,otherwise they would have included data for toonzelda and tetra.Not to mention,that there is actual voice-data for mewtu,including a scream,which was most likely meant for his final smash.
2.How did I exclude greek and from what?And how would it be dull for her to be included?
3.first of all,how could you consider jigglypuff a clone of kirby ?They don't share any moves and ike and marth are also nearly never even considered semi-clones.
And every series has characters,that people who didn't play the games may not recognize,so where is the problem?
Including dark pit would be like kicking out zelda and instead including dark link or kicking out peach for .
And you say ssb is for introducing characters to more fans,but wouldn't be the inclusion of dark pit instead of palutena completely against that?since instead of introducing us to another major character of the kid icarus series,we'd get another version of the same character.
I also don't see how dark pit is more iconic than palutena,as he had a much smaller role in uprising,not to mention the whole series.
4.lucario was highly popular in the 4th gen,more popular than the starters.In the games it was used by several important trainers and had special roles in the spin-offs.So even if you don't consider it as a mascot,it was still "in" at that time.
I also think it is weird,that you consider the starters the mascots of their gens,but not the legendarys who are the "mascots" of their versions(like lugia for silver,etc.)
5.Toonlink appears in the 3 fourswordgames(including MC),as well as in all games of the adult time line,giving him 6 appearances.
the link from zelda 2 is 15 years old,making him more of a teenage link,than the adult link and since he is the same as the one in zelda 1,which leaves only 6 games for the adult link and half of those are 2d-games,making his actual age rather ambigious.



Jul 25, 12 at 5:00pm
NapoleonDos


All right- if you have issue with a part of my roster, Id like to see some specific amendments- though I'm also fine with this thread being used in general for all of the topics discussed elsewhere (size, game representation, clones.... hell, I should recycle some of what I wrote from 2008 on here).

quote Swampasaur
Besides we have Pikachu, Kirby, and Olimar. They are all supposed to be tiny, heck Olimar's smaller than a dime. Size isn't that big of an issue.
Exactly. The Olimar point is really what drives the size factor home- the enlarging of him (and even moreso, the Pikmin). The shrinking of a character is not that strange, though none of it really is, since these characters dont exist in the same universe in there games and we are suspending our criticisms to allow the notion of the game in the first place.

quote BlueLore
maybe it is an excuse just for that,but in the end he will most likely follow that role.
But if you think like that,you can also think about tom nook the same way.
Why should they add a shopkeeper if they can add a space dragon or a small dragon turtle with paint-magic?
Honestly, no, this principle (that Nintendogs are just a gimmick based on REAL dogs, and have absolutely no personality or characterization as individuals) is completely different than referring to Tom Nook as a shop keeper or even Pikachu as an electric mouse- to add a Nintendog, which is a replacement to a real life pet (literall pet, not just a 'tamogatchi) would be flat out asking for claims of Nintendo supporting animal abuse and violence (which I'm guessing they are over after the ridiculous claims from the 90s towards Pokemon and dogfights). If they were to add a Nintendog, they might as well just add in a damned Polar Bear named Knut.

quote BlueLore
Interactive doesn't mean that they have to be identical in roster.
Sakurai said,that he wants to make the 3ds-version individual,allowing customization and that you would be able to upload the customized character to the wiiu.
That doesn't mean that you would be able to play versus-matches with the wiiu against the 3ds or something like that,so there is no need for the two games to have the same cast.
To be interactive, they have to interact. True, this does not mean they have to be playable- but seeing as the quintessential paradigm of SSB is to put our favorite characters in a rink together, it would be pretty ridiculous (and outrage even the slightest of fans) for them to not be playable versus each other, not to mention it would then yield much less profit for Nintendo (the lack of necessity to buy both, rather than one or the other). Certain characters may need to be unlocked on one version or the other (gotta catchem all, afterall), but the data still needs to be available on both or they will not, as I said, interact, just coexist.

quote BlueLore
For some reason this post says it quotes GaTheZakk xD.
But anyway towards your points:
1.This time sakurai says he wants to include not that many characters,if you look at the data in brawl,it seems that they originaly planned over 40 characters for brawl.
2.I think you should keep your rule of "being in just one game isn't enough",because that is what I think too(except for retro characters).I understand your point about greek gods and I won't say anything against this,since it is entirely up to the opinion of the developers how this would work out.
But you also said that this would leave us with palutena and well......where is the problem with her?She showed in the game that she is capable of fighting and would be the number 1-candidate anyway,since she appears in almost all chapters of uprising and is the only character(aside pit)to appear in all kid icarus games(by the way she is based on athena the goddess of wisdom,her name is based on the sayin pallas athena...but i forgot what that means xD)
3.but anyone who didn't play any kid icarus won't recognize dark pit as more than just another clone and wasted character spot.On the other hand they might recognize palutena from brawl more,since she appears in pits final smash and is the only npc in the subspace emissary.
4.individual generations also had their own mascots.Sure they weren't as popular as pikachu,but they were there.Or do you want to tell me that lucario isn't the mascot of the 4th generation?
5.ups got things mixed up,toon link actually appears more frequently:p
Also the games have a set chronology,nintendo released the official time after skyward sword came out and there is a total of 10 different links divided over 3 timelines.
http://www.zeldawiki.org/Timeline
1- They are mere Easter Eggs. Just as Sakurai told us how to unlock everything secret online specifically because he knew we live in the age of internet spoilers, Id bet he depended on hackers seeing the files of the game. The characters that would suggest a roster of over 40 seem EXTRAORDINARILY improbable, particularly with Tetra, which if you are even considering was a true character at a point is to invalidate your claim that demi-minute characters appearing in one game of large series would even be considered.
2- I know my Mythology well (and how can you exclude Greek from this?), and my love of epicism and mythos is part of why I am so akin to both video games and specifically SSB. Palutena I can see as plausible. But that is about the only one. And it is just so expected that it is a bit dull.
3- The Subspace Emissary is littered with Nonplayable characters- from every boss, to the trophies, villains and background characters. If you don't know Kid Icarus, even if you know Brawl, I still think that Dark Pit is more iconic. He would seem like a clone, but then again how many characters do? I disagree with the principle but it is still the reality. If unfamiliar with the games of origin, all of the following characters would appear clones- Luigi, Toon Link, Falco, Wolf, Lucas, Jigglypuff (of kirby), Ganondorf, Marth, Ike-- perhaps even more. There is a bit of reliance to not rely on what commoners know- SSB is all for introducing fans to more characters.
4- Lucario isn't the mascot of the 4th generation, or at least was only made so by the fans after the release of the movie. But even that is really just to say 'the most popular,' not the mascot, which would be more equatable to Jigglypuff in gen one than Pikachu. The mascots are always Pikachu plus the starters.
5- Toon Link is only the celshaded Link, which is a handful of games. The rest of the Links are the main one in the series, which highly outnumbers his Toon form. I retract my statement on the chronology- you have proven me wrong in that regard (thank you for informing me, too). However, the most prevalent form of Link is still as an adult, numerically. Link appears as an adult more than as a child, and fewer times celshaded than.... pixelated (whatever the opposing form would be).

quote BlueLore
The problem is,that there aren't really any humanoid metroid characters(aside from samus) that appear in more than two games.
also your argumentation in your inital post says,that you can't imagine ridley since he was so long away from the series,but in melee there wasn't any need for him and in brawl he appeared as a boss(which is better than nothing),so I don't see where's the difference between ridley and sylux,since he/she didn't appear in brawl,so why should he appear in the next game at all?
My stance on Ridley is always in flux- my inner battle for him being the clear most deserving character to be added is at combat with how much he keeps being bastardized in the SSB series. This may cloud what I say toward it over time.



Jul 23, 12 at 2:28pm
BlueLore


quote Swampasaur
quote GaTheZakk
by the way if King K Rool was added would he have to be resized?
Not really. He was always only slightly larger than DK. Besides, he's appeared in Mario Sports Titles where he was the same size as Bowser.
not always,since k.rools size varies,similar to bowsers.
In DK64 k.rool was huge,he was more than twice as big as dk

But in the end he had a fitting size in some games,so the size isn't any problem here.



Jul 22, 12 at 10:56am
Swampasaur


quote GaTheZakk
by the way if King K Rool was added would he have to be resized?
Not really. He was always only slightly larger than DK. Besides, he's appeared in Mario Sports Titles where he was the same size as Bowser.



Jul 22, 12 at 8:11am
GaTheZakk


I thought Ganondorf looked smaller than he did in Twilight Princess, by the way if King K Rool was added would he have to be resized?



Jul 20, 12 at 2:54pm
DedValve


Charizard and Bowser was shrunk to some degree, although Bowser's size changes game from game. Even Ganon (the monster) has sized down considerably to fit brawl, not to mention that Ridley in the opening sequence of Melee was slightly larger than Samus, wings and all, so he's already been resized.

Ridley and King K. Rool are a must. I'd also like Lyn, if only for more female representation.

I also want Paper Mario with his moveset involving his entire squad from Paper mario 1 and 2 (koops, goombella, etc.)



Jul 20, 12 at 2:18pm
BlueLore


But if you compare the pokemons with each other,you'll notice,that the size doesn't really match.
I mean Mewtwo is supposed to be 5 times as big as pikachu,but look at him in melee,he is barely twice as big.

And ganondorf actually got smaller,in TP he was huge,over a head taller than link.



Jul 19, 12 at 1:48pm
timeshine


quote Swampasaur
Then what about Charizard? He's supposed to be HUGE!!!
Charizard is 5' 7" not that tall.

Also ridley was only slightly bigger than samus in the original Metroid so it can work.



Powered by neoforums v2.3.0 (Bolieve)
Copyright Neo Era Media, Inc. 1999-2014

Neoseeker.com   |   Forum Rules   |   Forum FAQ   |   Neoseeker Terms of Use   |   Supermods On Duty [ server id: web8 ··· elapsed: 0.1522]
Chat and Lounges
Game Platforms
Mobile Platforms