I saw one of these on a different website and said, "*bleep* it, let's see what those cretinous wankers wonderful, insightful people over at Neoseeker will say to it."
This is not a debate about which faction is the most powerful, or which faction would win in a final battle to outright defeat. This is a debate about the factions' philosophies. Their views, their future goals, their history, what they ultimately stand for, etc, etc.
So, please, none of that crap we witnessed back in the "BoS vs Legion" thread a while back. Jesus, that was terrible... and no spoilers either, if you can help it.
Anyway, let the friendly debating commence. I'll start...
Philosophy wise, I think Caesar's Legion is the most intricate, House coming at a close second. Face it, Caesar is one of the damn smartest NPCs in the game. All his speeches concerning his Legion's conflict with the NCR are well spoken and mindful, and his idea of a Pax Romana is grand, if only a little bit unethical. Sure, Caesar is a fraud, but keep in mind the NCR is really just trying to iterate the Old World Government (and you all know what happened to those guys), taxing people and ultimately forcing them under their rule.
So, what's the inevitable difference between the two?
House is sort of similar to the NCR, which is trying to keep Old World premise of modern society alive, which from my point of view is a respectable goal, but still brash because society really can't be rebuilt after it's already suffered such tremendous casualties.
Anyway, your responses?
EDIT: Almost immediately, the Brotherhood was brought into this. Look, people, this is a debate over the influential factions, not the small, independent ones. So, please, have no mention of the Brotherhood of Steel or any other minor faction while debating. Thank you.
Thread Recap (last 10 posts from newest to oldest)
Apr 02, 13 at 1:36am
Clan Gangrel
When I played the game for the first time, I naturally gravitated to the NCR because they were modelled after the United States, a government for the people. When I met with Caesar (which I pronounce with a hard C), it got me thinking. What is the wasteland now? Sure, the Mojave has it much better off than DC, but it's still a wasteland. Outside of the Cottonwood Cove and Fortification Hill, there wasn't much of a presence of slavery. Yes, forcing children to be trained as legionaries is bad, but the NCR conscripts many soldiers. The Legion just does it earlier. As had already been mentioned, Caesar is one smart guy. He's read up on Rome and he's modelled his empire after Rome for the same reason I sided with him: longevity. Rome lasted nearly 1000 years. To my knowledge, only Persia (Iran) has lasted longer. Greece fell to Rome, not the other way around. I saw the Legion as the only path to lasting stability in the wastes. I also reasoned that within 50 years, as more NCR territory was conquered, the politics would become much more liberal. Former NCR citizens would demand equality and the outlawing of slavery.
The only other option for stability would be independent, but with a twist. Allow Yes Man to remove the White-Gloves and the Omertas, two groups who are a too... on the wrong end of things. The Omertas for being a bunch of Mafiosos, and the White-Gloves for being too divided internally. (SPOILER) With Benny gone, Swank could lead the Chairmen to a somewhat stable run of the Strip. So long as Pacer is removed, The Kings can run Freeside quite well with the help of the Followers of the Apocolypse. Give the Followers a larger budget, and demand an open-mindedness from the Brotherhood of Steel, and the rest of the Mojave can flourish with the power from Helios ONE and Hoover Dam. Let Lake Mead supply water, and send scouting parties to the rest of the world. You might just find the Capital Wasteland and the water purification technology. This would allow any water source to be cleaned and used, reducing the strain on Lake Mead. Allow the NCR to keep its embassy while removing its police presence, and offer an embassy to Caesar and any other governmental faction. Open Vault 21 back up and run the government from there. Create a true democracy, not a republic, and don't focus on expansion. With the Brotherhood of Steel and the Mk. II Securitrons protecting the area and not being forced to spread troops thin, the nation of New Vegas would be able to prosper.
Feb 22, 13 at 3:08pm
Mr.Soa68
I like the NCR for one main reason; they're the only faction willing to accept and form alliances with one another. Caesar wants everyone dead as well as Mr. House. They believe that other factions just get in their way and ask you, the courier, to eliminate them. At least the NCR are willing to ally with the other factions and tribes and will work together to bring order.
Feb 06, 13 at 9:00am
KainDog
Legion: Nuked 'em. Don't hear much from them any more. NCR:Killing all of them. House: Dead.
Screw governmental powers. The Mojave will me MINE!
But seriously. I didn't really like any faction. Then again I shot first, talked later on almost everyone.
Feb 01, 13 at 9:04pm
wonbullet
In my opinion I believe that Mr House is my favorite only because I like Chilling out in Freeside and The Strip. He also controls (again in my opinion) the strongest army.
I disliked the Legion because of the slaving and torture and burning.
The NCR are trying to accomplish peace but in the process forcing taxes and stealing homes. Plus I liked looting ranger helmets and service rifles from corpses.
Aug 26, 12 at 12:12am
MR
I think that the NCR just want money and power. And that so many people align with them because they look glorious on the outside, especially to people who have not known anything besides fending for themselves. Imagine being alone for so long in an anarchial wasteland having to survive day by day. then there is this faction that rolls in and they seem so good and honorable. and you'll be safe just so long as you play by the rules. basically don't *bleep* with the way things are. It's a bad state of government that takes over any land they want. "That's how revolutions start" as quoted by marcus at jacobstown. Not to mention that they are also bigoted and ignorant to any mutants. Also as mention before the brahmin ranchers run the politics. basically the rich influence the politicians to make laws that support them getting more rich and powerful while in turn the rich finiance the election campaigns for the politians it's a corrupt government that I think is worse then the Legion. Mainly because they lie about who they really are, thieves who like to kick around the poor. At least the Legion doesn't lie to people about who they are, slavers and murderers and sure i do not condone their actions in any way. I honestly think they make the human race less progressive in their(legion) actions, but they don't go around acquiring land by bullying people into giving in if they do not play ball. And i'm sure their is a few monopolies in the NCR that make it even harder for businesses to grow for the poor. And the ONLY reason the NCR is in the Mojave Wasteland is for the Hoover Dam's energy and New Vegas' caps, they don't care about the people of the Wastes it's just easier to take over land when the people are more complacent to your side.
Mr. House's vision is also morally wrong he doesn't care about anybody in the mojave either, he would see them wiped from the mojave because they make New Vegas look bad, having a bunch of poor people around really cramps his style i guess. All he cares about is power and money.
I think the best way would be to go independent honestly if i was the leader of New Vegas i would try to get all of the tribes on my side and show them what the NCR and Legion really are and fight them off with the securitrons. Then create a new nation comprised of these tribes, but of course there is a problem with leadership and if anyone challenged me leading then it would be up to me of what i would do i could technically crush them with the securitrons but then that makes me no better than the legion and ncr, i would try to run elections but of course corruption is imminent in a democratical society, and honestly eventually a leader will use the securitrons to become a dictator and take complete control over the mojave. But say i was the leader then if the NCR tried to go to war with me i would shut their power off from the hoover dam and send the boomers after their soldiers who head east, as for the legion i would eventually declare war on them for crimes against humanity and try to free the slaves then if possible give them their land back, but most likely the people of the mojave would much rather keep the land they fought for so that's another issue, and the securitrons are more probably for defense of the mojave rather than attack, i'm sure they have some sort of limit as to how far they can go, also they have one major weakness, pulse weapons. so i would try to build an army using the caps from new vegas, i would also charge the ncr for power from the Hoover Dam. I wouldn't go to war with the NCR unless they attacked because eventually a revolution would occure based off of the way the government is being run.
Jun 06, 12 at 7:42pm
Caesar's Fist
After playing through the game multiple times, I found that the Legion was my preferred faction. Yes, the Legion is hard, and brutal, but so is the wasteland. More so than any faction, the Legion recognizes that post-apocalyptia is a harsh place, and if they want to have any hope of taming it, they need to be harsher.
While I don't condone their use of slavery, it's understandable; every empire in history has made use of slaves at one point or another. As for the violence, I've already explained that the Legion is only as brutal as the need to be. I think some people forget that Caesar doesn't command them to raze villages and crucify people for his own amusement; he commands it because such things must be done if there is to be any hope of pacifying the wasteland.
Another thing which seems to go unnoticed the Legion is incredibly young; while the NCR have existed in some form or another for over a hundred years, the Legion is merely decades old. The founder of Legion is still very much alive and well. This is only the first stage in the evolution of the Legion. Caesar is a smart man; he recognizes that continual expansion isn't the final answer for his Legion. However, they are still in the midst of expansion, and thus new territory must be taken, slaves captured and tribes assimilated. Caesar acknowledges that his Legion will be changed once they assume control of New Vegas; they will transform from a band of nomadic, though highly organized slavers into a true society.
I support the Legion because although they are seemingly evil and brutal, they are the best hope for returning to waste to some form of stability. In a world filled with mutants, psychopathic raiders and warring tribes, crucifixion and slavery seem the lesser of two evils. The bombs reset humanity; instead of clinging to old world values and following them down the same doomed path, the Legion chooses to take humanity in a new direction.
Jun 02, 12 at 11:44pm
Megas MkII
Having looked over the other arguments, I've drawn my conclusions.
NCR: An expansionist government trying to remake America as it was before the Great War. While this is idealistic, it comes with a catch that such governments can fall prey to. Manipulation. When one group has a lot of money and the means to maintain a fair deal of it, they simply need offer a portion of it to receive special treatment, while anyone else that doesn't have that kind of money, or even the means to gain it on a steady basis, must sit back and try to survive from one day to the next. Due to the easiness of spreading corruption through money, and the fact that a governent needs money and must spend a great deal of it on their own military, corruption is inevitable. Add in that the harsh wastes cause people to view themselves as the most important thing they have, along with immediate family if they're so lucky, this corruption becomes a form of self preservation. The cattle ranchers that do well enough to buy protection are directly causing weakness to their government, especially when the military is too spread out and funding is just barely enough to stay where they are. My reason to choose: At its core, the NCR does care about the people under their flag, and should they retake all of America and manage to wipe out the raiders and opposing factions, they could quite possibly be an element of stability, taxes would drop off dramatically, and proper money would be circulated again while older laws are put back into effect as cities and states are restored. They are also willing to compromise on some things, and are capable of mercy to former enemies. My reason not to choose: Until the reasons I mentioned before could be fulfilled, the NCR is a bully, taking what they want whenever they feel like it, claiming it to be for the greater good, and if you resist, they kill you and make false claims that you were a terrorist or a raider, or something of the like, to get what you had, most likely more than they were originally trying to take. I have to believe in the future leaders, and their attitude means I have to hope that things turn out better in the future.
Caesar's Legion: An older style of thinking brought back by a pair of men, and one eventually managed to reform, at the cost of nearly dying and having to live in constant pain. Slavers, hypocrites, and bloodthirsty like nothing I've seen in a long time, they have a bass ackwards way of acting, and they've got their heads firmly jammed up their basses. While they intend to set things to a way that they think will work, they're going off of history, and there's an old adage that they conveniently overlooked, several in fact. First, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, and the original Caesar was betrayed and murdered, slavery was fought and abolished, and the stuff that you forbid will be the stuff people want to do more than anything else. Second, power corrupts, and one man has absolute power in this case. Third, a warrior with no challengers soon becomes restless. As a legion of warriors, if they win and take the wastes, they'll soon branch out to Canada, Mexico, South America, and when they can make ships capable of the journey, Europe and Asia, Africa and Australia, everywhere there is life, they will seek a battle. If they were to succeed, eventually, they would turn on themselves. My reason to choose: The achievement. That's pretty much it for me. Slavery, oppression, hypocrisy, in the end the way things work, Caesar would live only because the Legate is a far worse choice, because I do believe Caesar has it in him to change and perhaps let a female Courier take his place, eventually, and perhaps a proper empire could exist that doesn't go to war with the world, but become a peaceful, but still powerful, empire, capable of stability. Basically, the achievement and my writer's sense of hope and fanictioning the idea. My reason not to choose: Slavery, oppression, hypocrisy, lack of hope, the legion is just a bunch of fools following history without any real reason to do so.
Mr. House: A man from the past trying to forge a brighter future for the world. Honestly, I see him as the lesser of all evils. With his ideals, restoring the world slowly and carefully through a great deal of planning, going step by step as delicately as possible, he could remake the world just as it used to be, and then put it back on track to where it was going before it all went to hell. Despite his autocratic nature, and his tendency to step all over people to get what he wants, the fact that he'll use any means he sees as necessary, and the fact that he's something of a bully, he's not good, he's not evil, he's just someone trying to do what he feels is right in his heart. With a good Courier, the world can push forward to being a truly great place again, and eventually, he could do it. Rebuild the plants to make more Securitrons, and more advanced models, along with mining robots to get gold and various materials to make even more and repair cities to their former state, he could easily, with the right help, take the old world and bring it back in a few centuries. So long as he has an heir, the future is possible, and can be a good one. My reason to choose: House is simply trying to tame humanity again and bring the world back to the way it was, but at the same time, make it better and try to minimize the chances of war. He can read people and events, giving him the ability to calculate the odds of something happening, and then create a countermeasure to negative outcomes and a way to improve the positives. While a bully, he's only as taxing as the NCR in his casinos, but would expand slowly and responsibly. While dangerous, he's nowhere near as bad as Caesar's Legion, and is nowhere near as hypocritical. He makes no illusions that he's in control, but he doesn't force rule on those in his city, only asking that they obey his rules and not cause trouble if at all possible. My reason not to choose: His way of thinking can be harsh, by the numbers and calculations, and anything that is a big enough hindrence to his plans is considered a threat to be removed as quickly as possible, bordering on paranoid at the best of times, obsessive at the worst. Due to the way things can go, he can be worse than the others with a bad Courier, but even then not quite as bad as the NCR or the Legion.
Independent: I don't think I'd likely choose this for any reason but to get the achievement. It's the Courier taking control, so whatever your Courier is, that's how the scenario boils down in the very end. If anything, this choice leads to true freedom, but at the same time, it's chaotic freedom, lacking control or direction, simply power for the sake of having it. My reason to choose: The achievement, and the possibility that whoever takes the reins after the Courier might bring the chaos back under control somehow. My reason not to choose: Chaos without some form of direction and organization is a terrifying thought. Do what you want, when you want, with or to who you want, why you want to do it. Essentially, reduce things to a bunch of children running around until someone burns the whole house down. That's what it becomes one way or another if you don't have a way to keep things under control somehow.
The choices presented are basically supposed to give you clear ideas. NCR is thought to be the 'good' force, trying to bring back freedom and set things back to how they were, even if some of the people don't really want it. 'You'll be a part of our country and help us bring it to glory whether you like it or not!'
The Legion is the 'evil' force, taking control by any means necessary, killing anything that doesn't say 'my life for Caesar', anyone that can't do what they're told, or if they're sick, while enslaving women and using them as breeding tools to produce strong offspring. 'The strong survive, the weak die, and anyone standing in our way will see the might of our army!'
House is sort of the middle road, but he stands on the 'good' side of neutral, trying to make a better future for each succeeding generation, but the neutral part leads him to be forceful and careful, doing things by numbers and calculated odds, and anything that could disrupt his plans enough or turn things toward chaos, he'll do whatever he sees as necessary to destroy it. 'The future of the world requires a guiding hand, lest the past repeat itself and everything returns to this, but there will always be an idealist to pick up the pieces and try again.'
And finally, the independant 'Yes Man' path is the opposite, the 'bad' side of neutral, letting things descend into chaos for the Courier's gain, with no plans for the future apart from getting and keeping power for as long as possible, maybe having a kid to take his/her place after he/she dies, either of old age, betrayal, or even his/her kid wanting a better future like Mr. House wanted, or whatever reason. 'With all of this under my control, I can do whatever the f*** I want, and there's not a thing anyone can do about it, so sit back and enjoy the ride, 'cause round and round and round it goes, where this'll stop, f*** if I know!'
May 27, 12 at 10:47pm
[spoiler=The Kid][/s
You guys are clearly missing the writing on the wall. Let's dissect these three, shall we?
The NCR, New California Republic, is just that. A big Republic. Based on "Old World" views, they rely on the democratic systems you find in America. Though many older fans will argue that they were better during the Enclave/NCR war, one has to consider WHY they 'worsened' or lost steam. They have the bigger military than the others.
The Legion is essentially a Empirical take. They are very akin to the Roman Empire: They're ruled by a sole man and his group of self-selected 'advisers', essentially. You could probably compare them to a number of autocracies in this way. Their military is well trained
Mr. House is a despotic view of the future. He believes in rule of power, which strictly makes him differ from The Legion; whereas Caesar legitimately gained power, House desires to gain power in one foul swoop: by removing the other two factions in their big battle. His personal military is well armed, assuming you give him the platinum chip.
Now that basics are out of the way, you can look at the various weaknesses and instabilities of the factions.
The NCR is not inherently bad; just weakened. The reason why is because they've stretched themselves too thin. Their complaints about the economy stem from the fact the BOS destroyed the gold mines backing their money and because New Vegas is basically a vacuum sucking up all the rest of their funding. They're harassed by the Legion and other raiders like the Fiends, preventing a lot of progress as well. This can be traced from General Lee Oliver's stratagem as a holding position. The NCR has the men, the firepower, and ability; they just don't have permission.
Another issue is their ability to govern correctly in the Mojave. Their political center is all the way back in Shady Sands, making it harder to govern the activities and well fair of the people there. The rule of thumb, then, is too shoot on sight, regardless of crime committed. They have jails on the strip, presumably due to House, but everywhere else is a display of poor governance. The government is also flawed from corruption. We're informed fairly early that the NCR's finest troops are stuck protecting Brahmin Barons back at California. Oliver received his position from nepotism. Mercs are allowed to harass Jacobtown because a few rich people back west wanted it. This shows that the NCR is by no means without flaw. But, it has proven time and time again that when they work hard, they get what they want. Those of you who proclaim the taxes and annexation is harsh, keep in mind that the NCR is a freight train. They need money to run their government and bring back normalcy, and land to spread their people. Perhaps it was their willingness to expand that caused the problems they have now.
Caesar's Legion is a very interesting case of flaws gone wrong. First of all, Caesar believes what he is doing is right for the future. But take a look at the indecencies the Legion causes: They host lotteries where they kill all but two in a normally horrifying manner; burn cities to the ground; enslave the downtrodden and poor; treat women as property; potentially, they can bomb New Vegas...from this we can gather they are an oversized group of slavers. Essentially, their organization comes down to their decided leader, Caesar..as many of the past argue, such as in the case of Napoleon, Hitler, and the real life Caesar, all power should not go unto one man. There is also a fair amount of hypocrisy in the Legion. As one user mentioned earlier, they do not condone the use of chems or alcohol. But their higher ups can be found drinking away at certain points in the game. On that note, they also discourage use of stimpacks in preference to more 'traditional' herbs and 'healing powders'. They shun medical advances and technology as a whole. And while many claim they are the only faction trying to shun old world values, you are incorrect; they are trying to simulate an even OLDER culture...one that also fell even at its highest.
Finally, you have Robert House. Let's get one thing straight right now: House is NOT trying to simulate OLD WORLD VIEWS. He is actually the opposite: House is looking to the future. He wants to create a future for the betterment of mankind. If one looks into him, they'll find he has plans to push humanity forward into a more stable and technological time. Now if one plays the House ending, they'll find he is ruthless. He wants to kill the BOS for no other reason than because he dislikes them and believes they will impede him. In certain endings, he will slaughter the Kings. The Followers find Freeside to become bulging with violence. House is indifferent to the lives of the whole. His plans are more long term in this way, meaning, as with Despots of the past, he is willing to crush everyone as long as he can maintain and hold onto his power.
Now that that's done, one can see that any way you split it, the wasteland will have problems..and indeed, as the narrator said... "War never changes."
Also, I feel that if the legion doesn't have a war to fight, they really couldn't hold their nation together, they seem like a war band, that always has to fight or else they will start fighting amongst each other.
That's a good point. Caesar resembles Genghis Khan who conquered enemies that were thought to be unbeatable using brute force and mass numbers, but the vast Mongolian empire fell apart in no time after his death.
The great leaders should have the ability to govern its people without making wars, and in my opinion none of those three main factions is capable of doing that.
Mar 18, 12 at 7:56am
Mangenie
Well, I admire that the legion is very professional, and don't allow alcohol or chems, they have great cohesion and training, but I really don't like how violent they are, also the slavery part is a big no no for me. Also, I feel that if the legion doesn't have a war to fight, they really couldn't hold their nation together, they seem like a war band, that always has to fight or else they will start fighting amongst each other. Then, the NCR, they almost seem like the British government of old, with the high taxes and big military, because soon, the people will start to rise up and revolt under the high taxes. My fave option is Mr.House, because he has been around for so long, and seen so much, that he has a lot of knowledge. But a problem for him is, how can he make more securitrons, because the facility under the fort seems just to hold the army, not to manufacture them.
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