Since I hadn't mentioned this before, although it's a bit more cumbersome making reports now I personally like the new process, in fact it probably was overdue. There were just too many people not caring about the rules or not choosing to follow them (commenting when they shouldn't have, posting and not contributing evidence/creating reports). This way punishes these people trying to make things worse for everyone else but still provides a fair avenue for those trying to make fair and appropriate reports. Maybe a little inconvenient at first but once you figure it out (or just subscribe to the thread so it's always in your my.neoforum), no problem.



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Handling things at the lowest level

I now see how that could be difficult with complaints and reports. Many times I would wounder if the member had even tried contacting the forum moderator prior to using the C&R forum.

quote OZ

Please note the following simple guidelines before making your post.

What shouldn't you post here?

* Any issue confined to a single moderated forum.
* Avatar theft complaints involving corporate logos.

What should you post here?

* NeoPM Advertisements.
* Spambots.
* Widespread spam/troll issues.
* Personal abuse through whatever means.
* Moderator complaints

Seems like OZ already has that covered. Sorry for the trouble.

quote Barmy_Brat

Whoa.

If you make it too easy, they will use it for every little thing. I am capable of using it properly. I was hoping that others would too, but like he said the history of the matter doesn't support that hypothesis.

[size=1][color=#666666]This message was edited by GuardianGriffen on Dec 22 2007.



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I really think you're trying hard to find an issue here when I personally do not think an issue exists at all if I'm honest with you, GuardianGriffen. I think you're trying to over-complicate something which, in quintessence, is as developed as it needs to be for the purpose and scale of use it is intended for. Any further extension to this system would be superfluous. Why? Let's see:

Link Visibility

One of your first main points here is the visibility of the link to complain as you feel as it stands it is not prominent enough. I'd say one of the main problems with the Complaints and Reports forum previously was the fact that the link to complain was perhaps a little too prominent. With a specific place for complaints being advertised prominently at the top of the RFS forum, this led to a vast increase in the number of people rushing to complain about issues on a whim. Unfortunately a lot of these issues were either non-issues to begin with, or minor problems that did not require the attention of an administrative member and could have been dealt with at a more local level. The system as it stood put too much emphasis on complaining about issues and did not work as intended since the day of the forum's genesis. This is why Complaints and Reports was closed on an earlier occasion by myself a long while ago and relaunched many months later with more stringent guidelines which, evidently, weren't working either. This is a core reason why a change in policy, once again, was inevitable and needed.

Now, what you're essentially advocating and encouraging with elements of this suggestion is that the link to complain is even more prominent than its ever been with it effectively being advertised on the page that many use as their central point for browsing the site. Purely judging on the past issues, I really don't think that's too great of an idea and I think there's enough prior history in place to suggest that doing this would actually create even more complaints within the system, with the vast majority requiring no action yet still taking up people's time to filter through and respond to.

The complaints process could be really prominent, as has been suggested here. Let's make it more simple! Why not have a link at the top of my.neoforum which takes you directly to a form to send a complaint straight through to the admin team? That'd be straightforward and would make things much easier for people, right? Absolutely! Why isn't it a viable idea though? Because complaining in that case is too simple and you're giving the impression that it should be used as an absolute first port of call for minor problems or issues rather than as an absolute last resort when your problem does require the attention of someone higher than a moderator. Complaints do not need to go directly to the highest level possible in order to be dealt with. In fact, this is often the least efficient way of handling an ongoing problem which would have benefited more from being dealt with at a local level without being escalated immediately to the top end of the community's moderator spectrum. I'm referring to local forum moderators and section moderators in this instance.

The high prominence of a system to complain to the top echelons of the site's administration almost trivializes and dilutes the impact of complaining at this level. In addition, it also shrouds people's recognition of the difference between a minor problem and a problem which requires an administrative member's attention. This is essentially why incorrect use of the system provided to people, as it stood, was consistently present throughout the forum's tenure as public and slightly more accessible than it is today; it is also why I feel you're heading down the wrong path by suggesting the process is made even more visible than it has ever been to people through forum wide announcements and/or links at the top of central pages here. The system isn't exactly much less prominent now than what it was in the first place, except now people are goaded into reading the C+R thread a little as a sticky in RFS before finding the link to submit their report which isn't such a bad thing.

Automatic Reports

Your suggestion earlier in this thread actually helps highlight the reason why the facility to complain probably shouldn't, in fact, be more accessible. You talk about the automatic reporting of advertisers to super moderators, which you have identified as something you should be doing as a first choice option.

The first choice option here should probably be to use the current existing system we have in place at the moment for dealing with abuse and reporting the advertising posts that you see on the forums. The local forum/section moderators will then see and deal with this using a moderator's own established policies of handling advertisers which also entails alerting the necessary people if forum wide restrictions are perceived as necessary for accounts that require it. All of this is handled for you and without the need to submit any form of "automated" reports into a system other than the report system which is already in place, which is accessible and prominent.

In the case of spambots lodging an official complaint isn't the wrong choice because it is widespread abuse of the forum facilities, however if any form of option to automatically create complaints were implemented, they'd be even more scope for minor issues which don't necessarily require the attention of a super moderator to enter into the system as history has proved that people tend to overreact and escalate things sometimes. They do this probably with very good intentions as they want to help out, of course, but the reality is this causes a lot of extra work for people unnecessarily and I feel this is exactly what making the system more accessible to this degree would accomplish.

If you're also encompassing NeoPM advertisement abuse then this is a slightly different kettle of fish and something that is worthy of complaining about however any form of "automatic" report procedure in this sense would essentially be mirroring the functionality of the "forward" button on the NeoPM screen which would send a copy of the advertisement to a super moderator anyway.

Concluding, I think it important for you to realize that while it is recognized that a complaints procedure is needed and important to maintaining a good community on Neoseeker, and it's certainly not the intention to reduce the number of legitimate complaints being sent in for processing, advertising to the point of trivializing the importance of making an official complaint isn't something which benefits the community and, as history indicates, isn't something that works too well.

Contrary to what you state however, how it stands now isn't by a long shot "taking this tool away from all the rest of us who would use it properly." The tool of complaint has been around long before any official method was devised. There are so many avenues of complaint that are open to people who are experiencing problems with the forums. Local forum moderators or section moderators being the first port of call, with super moderators being the choice when these methods aren't sufficient for the given situation. All of these individuals are, and always have been, available for you to speak to directly via the NeoPM system as they are for everyone. The only real benefit of the complaints process as it stands now is putting out a call to all of them, with the first one available picking it up and dealing with the situation rather than having to wait for the specific person that you've NeoPMed to come online.

As you personally know how to use the complaints process, I encourage you of course to use it when you spot genuine instances of abuse. However I think you're worrying a little too much here about other people and perhaps underestimating their competence of seeking the help required when they have genuine causes for complaint about things which have caused negative experiences for them on the neoforums. Being put in touch with the right people and guided towards the right area of the site to resolve their problem is only ever a quick PM to a local moderator away, or a request for help being posted in the Site/Forums Help and QA board if they need further assistance which I'm sure everyone is capable of doing.

Take care.

• Edit: Readability.

This message was edited by Dynamite on Dec 22 2007.



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quote Krunal

A sitewide announcement to tell members to complain about each other? I personally think the methods they have now is okay, maybe adding a bigger link to the header, but apart from that, I don't think there needs to be a site-wide announcement about it. At the end of the day, the post link will be found by someone that needs to complain.

Just my take on it anyway. And where would the link be on my.neoforum?

That is another good alternative. Probably better in fact. However, that will make it easier for more members to access the link to post in this forum. We wouldn't want more people to start complaining, even if they are legitimate complaints that are handled privately.

That is the goal of this suggestion. Along with making it easier to access the link. Some people complain about illegitimate reports. We could do the opposite of this suggestion and not tell people how to use the direct link to post a new message in a forum and change the forum number. That is the only way to reduce the amount of people who post false claims in the report forum. However, that would be against the purpose of the forum.

People using public scrutiny to drum up support for their 'cause' is bullshit and that is why the forum should be hidden from public view. That is different from taking this tool away from all the rest of us who would use it properly.

That is a good question. I was hoping for some suggestions. Below the add to ignore list?

quote Barmy_Brat

Since you seem to be suggesting this as a mod-only tool

I listed that as one option. Since you already have another tool in place, that one option doesn't seem very practical.

What about advertisements? That is what I was thinking about when I suggested that. A separate report selection that allows them to be viewed by supers as well as the forum moderators and listed as advertisements in their own section. The ability to remove this feature from trouble makers as well as enforcement would help curb abuse similar to how others can abuse the remove from view feature.



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quote GuardianGriffen

It is faster to remove from view and report an advertiser to the supers at the same time.

Moderators deal with these situations they same way they've been dealt with for years. Your proposition adds complication believe it or not.

Your system opens the doors to flooding the proposed system with bogus reports. Not that it has happened before, but there's always a first time to exploit a major flaw. The way it stands now, the issues are highlighted by local/section mods in the appropriate manner and the others are handled at a local level.




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