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Oct 07, 12 at 4:06am ^Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
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With that, I'm choosing one such somewhat-controversial topic for discussion this time around: Cell's strength after his return from his self destruction, and the debate surrounding whether he was much more powerful than Gohan, roughly equal to him, or even possibly much weaker than him--a debate I've seen several times in the past.
First, let's take an objective view at the facts in this case. I will be summarizing the events of Cell's final moments of life, and providing scans of scenes which are relevant and often sited as evidence in this discussion.
Cell teleports back to the battle field, and in the chaos that ensues, he shoots Trunks through the abdomen with a beam. The characters express both horror and confusion in regards to Cell's survival and abrupt return. Cell admits that he was surprised, too, and explains what happened.
Chapter: 413 (DBZ 219), P11.3-4
Context: after regenerating from his self-destruction
Cell: "And even more happily, my body regenerated as my perfect form, even without No.18…And it wasn’t merely my perfect form: I had vastly powered up like Son Gohan…This was probably done by the Saiyan cells, which greatly increase in power when they are saved from the brink of death…"
Cell explains that after he was finished regenerating, he was now complete without #18, and he had powered-up "like Son Gohan." This is in reference to the sparking bolts of lightning in his aura, similar to Gohan's aura. He surmises that recovering from near-death triggered the power-up, much like the one Saiyans recieve.
Chapter: 413 (DBZ 219), P12.1
Context: after regenerating from his self-destruction
Cell: "And I even managed to learn Son Goku’s Teleportation…So in short, I was able to return here, having become even more perfect. It seems that rather than defeat me, Son Goku has given me several presents.”
Cell goes on to explain that his return was due to his ability to teleport like Goku could. He now calls himself "better than ever."
Chapter: 414 (DBZ 219), P3.1-2
Gohan: "I just wish I'd kill you earlier. My dad died because I was arrogant. I'm glad I can avenge his death."
Cell: "Oh, really, haven't we been here before? I don't think it'll work as well fo you this time."
While the other characters are in utter shock at this turn of events, Gohan smiles. Cell asks the boy why he's smiling, wondering if maybe he's gone insane. Gohan explains that he's happy Cell's back... mainly so he can kill him. Cell expresses skepticism that Gohan can pull that off.
At this point Vegeta suddenly interrupts things. He screams in rage at his future son's death, and hurls himself at Cell, unleashing a savage barrage of energy attacks. Cell is unharmed, however, and flies out of the smoke cloud, striking Vegeta and smashing him into the ground. As Vegeta lies sprawled out, Cell fires off an attack meant to kill the downed Saiyan.
Gohan rushes to Vegeta's aid, and is hit by Cell's attack. This results in a huge explosion.
After the smoke clears, and the dust settles, Gohan rises to his feet. There's one small problem, though. His arm looks broken. It's hanging limp at his side, with blood just pouring down it.
Chapter: 414 (DBZ 220), P14.2
Context: after getting hit by Cell’s attack while saving Vegeta
Gohan: “Cell’s power has gone up more than I thought…”
As Cell taunts the young warrior, and Gohan's allies lament about this turn of events (and their lack of senzu beans), Gohan himself acknowledges Cell's increase in strength.
At this point, Cell declares that he'll end the game, and begins firing up a Kamehameha. Vegeta apologies to Gohan, Piccolo curses their helplessness, and Gohan gives up. He tells Cell that he knows he can't resist anymore, and demands that he just get it over with. Cell sneers, complaining about a boring ending, and prepares to fire.
At this point Goku chimes in from beyond the grave, courtesy of Kaio-sama, speaking to Gohan and telling him not to give up.
Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P6.2-4
Context: after Gohan's injured saving Vegeta, and Cell charges up his final Kamehameha
Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!”
Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…”
Goku assures his son that he can still beat Cell. Gohan argues, explaining that he can only use one arm, and that he lost half of his power.
Goku doesn't let up, continuing to insist that Gohan can win now. Gohan finally decides to give it his best, apologizing to his dad for getting him killed, and promising to do his best. At this point Gohan begins powering up his own Kamehameha with one arm, an iconic scene in Dragon Ball if ever there was one.
Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P10.2
Context: after Gohan fires his Kamehameha
Piccolo: “It no use…! Gohan’s ki is weaker after all…”
As Gohan and Cell both prepare to fire, Piccolo expresses his concern for Gohan's chances...
They fire, and an epic beam-struggle ensues.
Chapter: 416 (DBZ 221), P5.4
Piccolo: "H-he can't do it!!! He's being overpowered!!!
Cells kamehameha begins steadily pushing Gohan's back. Piccolo provides commentary.
Chapter: 416 (DBZ 222), P7.2, P8.1-2
Context: as Gohan and Cell’s Kamehamehas clash
Cell: "Wha ha ha! This is it! Thank you all for the good time!!!!
Goku: “Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain’t putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!”
Cell declares victory at this point, while Goku continues to encourage his son from beyond the grave. Goku tells Gohan that he's not yet using his full power.
Chapter: 416 (DBZ 222), P7.2, P8.1-2
Context: as Gohan and Cell’s Kamehamehas clash
Gohan: “I’m doing it at full force…! Any more than this is…”
Goku: “Somewhere in your mind you’re thinking of the damage to the Earth! Don’t worry about it! We’ll undo the damage with the dragonballs!”
Gohan again argues with his father, claiming he is doing his best. Goku continues to insist that he's holding back. Feeling victory is only moments away, Cell bids Gohan farewell. Suddenly, Cell gets hit by an attack from off to the side
It is Vegeta! As Cell stares at Vegeta, Goku screams that this is Gohan's chance. Gohan looks stunned, and then cuts loose, leaping up as he pushes the Kamehameha with all of his might.
Cell, who's face still seems to be turned away from Gohan, quickly notices the oncoming Kamehameha. His facial expression can be described as one of horror, or complete shock, as he begins turning his gaze back towards Gohan.
The rest, as they say, is history! Gohan beats Cell.
THE OPPOSING VIEWS
CELL WAS MUCH STRONGER THAN GOHAN. GOHAN'S VICTORY WAS PURE LUCK.
Cell says he's powered up "like Gohan did."(Fig. 1) If Cell was stronger than Gohan when they were both in the Super Saiyan tier, then Cell should be stronger than Gohan when he joins the Super Saiyan 2 tier.
Cell had already been demolished by Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, and he does not at all appear to be in denial of these events. Rather, he acknowledges Gohan's strength, but still insisits that with his new power-up he's capable of beating Gohan (Fig. 3)
The attack that Cell flung at Vegeta is described as being a "quick, uncharged blast." The blast cripples Gohan, breaking his arm, and then Gohan acknowledges that Cell's increase in power is to blame for the damage he's suffered. (Fig. 5)
Some argue that Gohan being harmed by an "uncharged" attack showcases Cell's superiority
During the beam-struggle, Goku claims Gohan is holding back, but Gohan insists he is giving it everything he's got (Fig. 10)
The argument is that Gohan knows how much effort he's using better than Goku does
Furthermore, Cell appears to just be toying with Gohan during the beam-struggle, and by shouting "Good bye!" (Fig. 10) it implies that he has yet to go all out himself, and is about to do so in order to nuke Gohan.
(Fig. 10) Vegeta's intervention comes at a crucial moment, interrupting Cell right before he finishes Gohan off. Cell turns his attention completely away from Gohan (Fig. 11)
Goku yelling "NOW!" while Cell's attention is turned away shows that even Goku knew this was Gohan's only chance
Cell is taken completely off-guard by Gohan's sudden surge, as shown by his surprise (Fig. 12)
Even Piccolo and the others show surprise after Gohan won "He... did it?"
Closing arguments: Cell knew how powerful Gohan was, and still believed he could win. Cell may be arrogant, but he's no fool. Gohan took heavy damage from an uncharged blast from Cell, and admitted that Cell had become far more powerful than he thought. During the beam-struggle Goku continues to claim Gohan is holding back, but Gohan insists that he isn't. Cell toys with his prey, and is just about to finish Gohan off, when Vegeta distracts him. Gohan exploits Cell's distraction and takes him off guard, which is the only reason he won.
GOHAN WAS MUCH STRONGER THAN CELL. HE JUST NEEDED A LITTLE PUSH TO BELIEVE IN HIMSELF
Gohan is just as confident that he can win as Cell is at first (Fig. 3)
When Gohan took Cell's attack, he was utterly focused on reaching Vegeta. He misjudged the blast's speed, and is surprised when it hits him. (Fig. 4)
The argument is that Gohan was off-guard, his defenses lowered, and all of his ki focused on speed, which is the only reason the attack harmed him.
Furthermore, Gohan hadn't believed Cell was much stronger at all (Fig. 5) which is another reason he didn't bother focusing his power on defending against Cell's attack.
Gohan has lost his confidence and didn't even want to try. Goku explained to him that he could still win. Goku is observing the events from the After Life, and knows that Gohan is still stronger than Cell.
(Fig. 6) Gohan claims that he's lost half of his ki, but he's still able to resist Cell's Kamehameha
Gohan has lost his self confidence. Even though he thinks he's using his full power, Goku knows better, explaining that Gohan is holding back out of fear of damaging the Earth (Fig. 10)
Goku is not just encouraging Gohan to "hang in there", he's actually saying Gohan is holding back. Gohan is only using a portion of his power at this point.
Finally, when Cell turned away, Gohan pushes the rest of his power into the attack. Cell is utterly obliterated (Fig. 13)
Cell is reduced to nothing, as Gohan's kamehameha had the strength to negate his regeneration. This is based on Gohan's power--the Kamehameha was just that strong. Cell was no match once Gohan went all out
Closing arguments: Cell's initial confidence is due to his arrogant nature. Cell has too much pride to admit defeat, and that's why he returned and bragged that he could beat Gohan now. When he tried to kill Vegeta, Gohan was in a panic, focusing every ounce of his power toward reaching Vegeta in time. For this reason the blast took him by surprise, with his defenses lowered. That's the only reason it damaged him so much. He claimed he had lost half his power, but he really didn't. He just had poor self-esteem, having been through the trauma of his father dying, and his arm being injured at this crucial moment. Goku continued to insist that Gohan was subconsiously holding back, and when Gohan finally does cut loose, his power utterly overwhelms Cell and erases him. Although Vegeta distracting Cell was a help, it wasn't necessary, as Goku had stated he knew Gohan could still win all along.
GOHAN AND CELL WERE ABOUT EQUAL IN STRENGTH
Cell has powered up "like Gohan has" (Fig. 1) This is shown by him having the same sparking aura that Gohan does. Their powers are now very similar. Gohan was way beyond Cell when he first became Super Saiyan 2, and Cell's boost should have put them on even grounds.
Gohan didn't realize Cell would become as strong as him (Fig. 5). That's why he thought he would beat Cell's attack to Vegeta. He aknowledges that Cell has improved more than he thought.
Gohan originally gives up because he's lost the use of his arm. He doesn't think he can overcome Cell, and it takes Goku to convince him that he can.
Gohan resists cell's Kamehameha, preventing it from instantly overwhelming him. But due to his injury, Cell has the edge. (Fig. 8)
If Cell were really much stronger than Gohan, then he'd have just blasted through Gohan's Kamehameha with his own, especially if Gohan were wounded. The fact that Gohan is still able to hold out even with this wound suggests that at their respective peaks, their powers should be very close to eachother.
Yes, Gohan releases the rest of his energy while Cell is distracted, but he still had the power to completly wipe Cell out. If Cell were that much stronger than Gohan, the Kamehameha shouldn't completly erase him.
Closing Arguments: Cell and Gohan were about equal. Same sparking aura, same "Super Saiyan 2 power." Gohan underestimated Cell at first, causing him to get careless, and lose an arm, but the size of his ki was still on par with Cell. Just because Cell thought he could win at first, doesn't mean he has to be overwhelmingly stronger than Gohan. Remember, Cell is very arrogant. The fact of the matter is, Gohan hung in there even while he was wounded, but Cell had the edge, slowly pushing his Kamehameha back. This indicates the two were dead even at their peaks, but Gohan was in a lot of pain and had lost power from Cell's earlier attack, giving Cell a slight edge during the struggle. Cell clearly has the power to kill Gohan during the struggle, as Gohan had the power to kill Cell. If Gohan was a lot stronger than Cell, he'd not have taken much damage from Cell's attack, and the beam-struggle should have been a breeze. If Cell was much stronger than Gohan, the Kamehameha shouldn't have utterly erased him. The two had to be close in power.
Well, that's about everything. Now, I'm very curious as to what all of your opinions are on the matter. Do you have a decisive viewpoint that you've stood behind for a while? Were you not even familiar that this was a debate? What is your standing on these Opposing Views? I'm very interested to hear from you, Neoseeker.
I hope this post will help organize your thoughts, maybe show some people things they may have overlooked, and show everyone how there are different ways to interprete certain scenes. Well, I hope everyone has as much fun reading this as I did typing it. Looking forward to hearing from you.
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Oct 07, 12 at 4:45am ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
This seems familiar...
total posts: 11
since: Oct 2012
Oct 07, 12 at 4:54am ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
quote KaboomHis full power should be implied as his full power as a SSJ2 as well. Anime SPC > SSJ2 Kid Gohan though.
Oct 07, 12 at 11:31am ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
You should probably include this quote as well.
[r] …Do it…I at least know it’s pointless to resist…[l] It…It’s too bad…I wanted to tear you to pieces…
Gohan thinks he could have torn Cell to pieces if his arm hadn't been damaged.
Oct 07, 12 at 12:43pm ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
I've always had Super Perfect Cell, and Super Saiyan 2 Kid Gohan as rivals. Due to by biased nature towards the good guys, I've had Super Perfect Cell at about 95% of Gohan.. But yah, them being rivaling powers makes the most sense imo.
Oct 07, 12 at 3:41pm ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
I skimmed over that, so I'm not sure if you mentioned this, but it should be noted that Cell's Kamehameha is on the same level as Goku's from the Saiyan Saga. Piccolo claimed that a "Kamehameha from back then" or something wouldn't affect him as much, implying the KHH had gotten much more powerful, while Cell was using a weaker, unrefined one.
So, I think it's safe to say that Gohan's KHH (or his KHH amplifier, if you will) is just a little less than 2x Cell's KHH.
100% Gohan's KHH >>> 45% Gohan's final burst KHH plot device overcame stuff yay > SPC's KHH > 45% Gohan's KHH...
SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SPC >>> 45% Kid Gohan....
Oct 07, 12 at 4:02pm ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
Cell's technique also improved as he transformed.
Chapter: 380 (DBZ 186), P2.4
Context: when asked if his perfect form could beat Vegeta
Cell: “Power! Speed! Technique! Brains! Mental Strength! I will be perfect in every way! That’s what the computer told me!!”
Oct 07, 12 at 4:42pm ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
I do have it improving, but it still isn't on the same scale as Gohan/Goku's, etc. Plus, there's also the Daiz stating that Goku gave Gohan some chi, but I don't think he could've contributed that much.
SPC's KHH also wasn't totally advantaged at the beginning, either (at least from what I could tell, given that it lasted for about 2 seconds)...
Oct 09, 12 at 7:58pm ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
quote The SadistThe comment was made after he witnessed Cell's increased power, so it's worthy of some acknowledgement. Whether someone considers it relevant or not is up to them.
Oct 09, 12 at 8:09pm ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
quote The SadistPiccolo Daimao damaged Goku's leg with "casual" eye beams despite Goku being superior. It means little if Cell damaged an unprepared Gohan, imo.
Full power Cell also thought he stood a chance beating Gohan, and look what happened to him.
Oct 16, 12 at 3:00am ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
Cell>=Initial transformation SSJ2 rage Gohan IMO.
Otherwise,Gohan wouldn't have been able to beat him with "half" his power.
Oct 16, 12 at 10:52pm ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
Well his equal with ssj2 kid gohan, can be a little weaker or a little stronger your choice really
Dec 05, 13 at 6:47am ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
I have SPC > SSJ2 Kid Gohan >> Broken Arm SSJ2 Kid Gohan.
Dec 07, 13 at 7:22pm ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
They were close rivals and if anyone is more powerful it's Gohan. There's nothing that puts Cell > Gohan.
Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list
Dec 08, 13 at 8:45am ^re: Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan Argument
Here's how i see it...
-The intention of SPC's blast was just to kill Vegeta,so i don't think it was a full power blast.For that to do so much
damage to Gohan,even if it caught him off guard,SPC must be stronger than SSJ2 Gohan.
-Gohan says he lost more than half his power,so i'll put Wounded Gohan at 40% of his max.
-During the beam fight,SPC was toying with Gohan.When he decided to end it,it was the combination of Vegeta's
attack,which distracted him,and Gohan's momentary enraged boost that did the work.
-At 25th TB,Vegeta states that Wounded Enraged SSJ2 Gohan>Healthy Normal SSJ2 Gohan.Since Wounded
Gohan was 2.5x weaker,the enraged boost has to be larger,i'll make it 3x.
All in all...
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