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bridgemanbridgeman just getting started! total posts: 131 since: Jul 2012	Aug 10, 12 at 8:12am ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	Log in to remove this sponsored message He doesn't have to be, but if Vegeta could more then double his power level in a year of training in the ROSAT, then I find it hard to believe Goku couldn't do the same in 14-something years. Sure the conditions were a bit more extreme because of that room's nature, but 14 years should be more then enough to at least double your power.
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Kaboom s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1678 since: Mar 2011	Aug 10, 12 at 8:33am ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	It's just the same thing as I already mentioned. Certain methods of training will become easier as you get stronger, so you need to find some other more effective way to improve. So the stronger you are, the more difficult it becomes to get* stronger.* Look at the period between Trunks and the Androids; Goku trained for a whole three years, with two training partners, but since both of them were below his level and the training environment was just normal Earth conditions, his increases weren't all that big. Well, it wasn't tiny or anything, and it certainly was useful, but it still pales in comparison to increases before and after it. But then the Room of Spirit and Time was something intense and special that Goku hadn't used to anywhere near its full potential yet (he was in there for barely about a month as a kid), so he was able to reap some pretty extreme benefits from it and got a lot stronger (I also think mastering Super Saiyan was a big part of it, by allowing non-stop training at a "higher level," so to speak, but that's a different topic altogether). So once he got all he could out of it and his body became accustomed to that level of training, his rate of power increase would "even out" and slow back down again, probably to that same pre-Androids rate, and gaining at that rate for only one year wouldn't make much of a difference against Cell (picture him only gaining about 1/3 as much power as he did between Trunks and the Androids). But then we know he got a good deal stronger during the seven years after that; at the very least going from clearly less powerful than Gohan to noticeably stronger than Gohan, in equivalent forms. Him being dead and in the afterlife likely allowed him to work himself harder than he could with a living body, not only resulting in impressive power increases, but also letting him discover Super Saiyan 3. Edit: Aug 10, 12 3:04pm
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super michael feel the power of the Millennium Items Hooked on Neo total posts: 4124 since: May 2005	Aug 10, 12 at 8:40am ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	quote XxSkelterXx That's a good point, the thing is that 7 years later, Super Saiyan Goku wasn't that impressive. Nobody commented on Goku's Super Saiyan power, normally when there is a huge power-up, it's referenced. Goku might have made minimal gains, but I doubt he is on another realm of power as a ssj. I can agree with you on that, I doubt that goku SSJ1 in the EOZ is stronger than SSJ2 kid gohan, like you said his SSJ1 it tapped out. But I do believe that goku in SSJ3 he can gain a lot of power since goku is new to the transformation. A mastered form provide a huge boost. ------------------- super smash bros brawl friend code, 4554-1399-8625 mike.
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bridgemanbridgeman just getting started! total posts: 131 since: Jul 2012	Aug 10, 12 at 8:50am ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	Wait, first you say his SSJ is tapped out and then you say a mastered form provides a huge boost? He hadn't mastered SSJ3 at all, he could keep it up for maybe only a short while. I can imagine he mastered it a lot better EoZ, but once again, I for one believe Goku at least doubled his power level since the Cell Saga by the EoZ. There is no way you can train for over a decade and not become at least twice as powerful. And if that's true, SSJ1 Goku = (or >) SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SPC.
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super michael feel the power of the Millennium Items Hooked on Neo total posts: 4124 since: May 2005	Aug 10, 12 at 9:53am ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	Sorry I explain better now I believe that goku in ROSAT mastered his SSJ1 100%. I believe that goku in buu saga is new to SSJ3 so it got lot of room to improve. In EOZ which is 10 years I believe that goku mastered his SSJ3, which would provide a huge boost of power, enough to 1 shot kid buu. ------------------- super smash bros brawl friend code, 4554-1399-8625 mike.
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PrinceVegeta Oh Great, The Fat One's Dead! no-stoppin-me-now total posts: 260 since: Aug 2012	Aug 10, 12 at 12:59pm ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	quote G_O_G_E_T_A Goku's Super Saiyan state was already more or less maxed out when he completed his ROSAT training. It's not for nothing that he claimed he and Gohan had hit their peak, and that in the Buu arc he was shown sporting two brand new, massively more powerful transformations. Super Saiyan was maxed out and no longer sufficient, hence Super Saiyan 2 and 3 being introduced. I only have Buu arc Super Saiyan Goku a fraction above his Cell Games power (10% at most), which is not even close to being sufficient in order to finish off full-power Perfect Cell (pre-Zenkai). EoZ Goku, in my opinion, would just be scarcely stronger than his Buu arc, Super Saiyan self, so this would be a walk in the park for Cell IMO. Nah, Goku never claimed it was maxed out as Kaboom said. Remember, Gohan was considerably above Goku even as an MSSJ (I'd say a whole ~30%), and Goku & Vegeta as SSJ2s seem to leave Gohan in the dust, so it's very possible that SSJ Goku has also far surpassed SSJ Gohan in the Buu Saga. He simply says going back in the ROSAT would be pointless. For example, if Goku were to do Kaio's training all over again, it'd be a waste as he'd get no benefits. But he goes on to claim that the others still have room to toughen up in the ROSAT, indicating that it's a matter of the ROSAT, not his SSJ. Also, if his SSJ were to max out, then we can assume his base form would max out at some point as well. You argue that coming back w/ 2 new transformations supports the fact that SSJ did not increase much...the same argument can be made for the base form facing minimal increases once Super Saiyan is attained (the gap between base and SSJ is the largest, after all). However, time after time in the Buu Saga, the Base Saiyans appear to be stronger than Frieza and SSJ Goku on Namek - I don't think there is anyone here who would disagree with this. If you look at some info, you can even get Base Saiyans > Piccolo (at least Goku & Vegeta), who at the very least rivaled 50% MSSJ Goku after his second ROSAT trip and is far stronger than SSJ Goku on Namek and Frieza. Lastly, when Goku predicts Dabura's power to be equal to Cell's power MAX, he acts like beating Cell is no big deal anymore for the Saiyans. However, he is surprised to see Vegeta become an SSJ2 during their fight...I personally don't think SSJ Saiyans > Cell in the Buu Saga just yet, but I'd say they rival Full Power Perfect Cell, and with all this, I'd say the EoZ SSJs can pull it off.
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G_O_G_E_T_A Vocare Ad Regnum (moderator) Dragonball total posts: 16060 since: May 2006	Aug 10, 12 at 1:03pm ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	It's not just Goku's statement after he exited the ROSAT, but also the fact that he appeared in the Buu arc with two brand new transformations which contained the lion share of his power increase. If you ask me, that is a tell-tale sign that Super Saiyan had become obsolete and useless, and Goku acquired two new transformations to further explore his potential. I'm not saying that he stopped getting stronger alltogether, but I certainly don't see him becoming powerful enough to the point that he could defeat a power the likes of SPC to be honest. He would need Super Saiyan 2 for that, which would easily suffice at the end of DBZ.
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PrinceVegeta Oh Great, The Fat One's Dead! no-stoppin-me-now total posts: 260 since: Aug 2012	Aug 10, 12 at 1:08pm ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	quote G_O_G_E_T_A It's not just Goku's statement after he exited the ROSAT, but also the fact that he appeared in the Buu arc with two brand new transformations which contained the lion share of his power increase. If you ask me, that is a tell-tale sign that Super Saiyan had become obsolete and useless, and Goku acquired two new transformations to further explore his potential. I'm not saying that he stopped getting stronger alltogether, but I certainly don't see him becoming powerful enough to the point that he could defeat a power the likes of SPC to be honest. He would need Super Saiyan 2 for that, which would easily suffice at the end of DBZ. But then why is it that Goku's base appears to far outclass his old SSJ form? If SSJ has limits, all other forms would likely have them as well, IMO.
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G_O_G_E_T_A Vocare Ad Regnum (moderator) Dragonball total posts: 16060 since: May 2006	Aug 10, 12 at 1:16pm ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	You're referring to Goku fight with Uub at the Tenkaichi Budokai? I'm not sure how much stock to put into that to be honest. Goku kept bragging that Uub had amazing powers, but until he started pissing him off, that power didn't surface and Goku was just beating down a scared little kid who had zero knowledge on how to use his true powers. I don't quite see how that fight makes EoZ base Goku superior to his Buu arc Super Saiyan state to be completely honest. And I do feel that all Super Saiyan transformations should logically have a potential enforced limit (it's not like every level just "stops" improving at a certain, set level for every Saiyan, it should be different for each of them IMO), because if they don't, why would there even be new transformations to attain? Why not just keep getting stronger in one and the same transformation? Other than the obvious answer to entertain the masses, obviously...
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PrinceVegeta Oh Great, The Fat One's Dead! no-stoppin-me-now total posts: 260 since: Aug 2012	Aug 10, 12 at 1:21pm ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	quote G_O_G_E_T_A You're referring to Goku fight with Uub at the Tenkaichi Budokai? I'm not sure how much stock to put into that to be honest. Goku kept bragging that Uub had amazing powers, but until he started pissing him off, that power didn't surface and Goku was just beating down a scared little kid who had zero knowledge on how to use his true powers. I don't quite see how that fight makes EoZ base Goku superior to his Buu arc Super Saiyan state to be completely honest. And I do feel that all Super Saiyan transformations should logically have a potential enforced limit (it's not like every level just "stops" improving at a certain, set level for every Saiyan, it should be different for each of them IMO), because if they don't, why would there even be new transformations to attain? Why not just keep getting stronger in one and the same transformation? Other than the obvious answer to entertain the masses, obviously... I actually used to think exactly as you did (SSJ never reaching Cell, SSJ2 never reaching Buu, etc, and base never reaching Frieza w/out Kaioken, though I'm not sure of your opinion on Base vs. Frieza). But I'm referring to Kaioshin's shock of the Base Saiyans' power when he claims to be able to one-shot Frieza, and when he seems to be far above Piccolo.
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superskullmaster Broly Fans Swallow. member: postin' posse since: Jun 2009	Aug 10, 12 at 1:21pm ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	quote PrinceVegeta quote G_O_G_E_T_A It's not just Goku's statement after he exited the ROSAT, but also the fact that he appeared in the Buu arc with two brand new transformations which contained the lion share of his power increase. If you ask me, that is a tell-tale sign that Super Saiyan had become obsolete and useless, and Goku acquired two new transformations to further explore his potential. I'm not saying that he stopped getting stronger alltogether, but I certainly don't see him becoming powerful enough to the point that he could defeat a power the likes of SPC to be honest. He would need Super Saiyan 2 for that, which would easily suffice at the end of DBZ. But then why is it that Goku's base appears to far outclass his old SSJ form? If SSJ has limits, all other forms would likely have them as well, IMO. And to add to that, why is it that Gohan (even though they claim he got weaker) was able to fight evenly with Dabura (of whom Goku compares to Cell at the least, the one that he fought but more likely the one that Gohan fought before Goku died)? To me this either means: Gohan didn't get weaker (not likely) Kid Gohan's SSJ2 had such a MASSIVE boost during the Cell Saga that it made his SSJ form seem insignificant (well all high powers after Cell were relevant to SSJ2 Kid Gohan Dabura was way alot weaker than they thought initially(not likely considering later comments) Or Goku's SSJ increased and so did Gohan's and Vegeta's. I mean, Gohan did train with Goten before the tourney, and so SSJ Gohan was holding his own against Dabura. My theory is that Gohan didn't get weaker, but he didn't get stronger either, and got sloppy. Meanwhile releative to Vegeta and Goku (who got stronger) he seemed weak. ------------------- Chuck Norris can cut through a hot knife with butter.
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PrinceVegeta Oh Great, The Fat One's Dead! no-stoppin-me-now total posts: 260 since: Aug 2012	Aug 10, 12 at 1:26pm ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	quote superskullmaster quote PrinceVegeta quote G_O_G_E_T_A It's not just Goku's statement after he exited the ROSAT, but also the fact that he appeared in the Buu arc with two brand new transformations which contained the lion share of his power increase. If you ask me, that is a tell-tale sign that Super Saiyan had become obsolete and useless, and Goku acquired two new transformations to further explore his potential. I'm not saying that he stopped getting stronger alltogether, but I certainly don't see him becoming powerful enough to the point that he could defeat a power the likes of SPC to be honest. He would need Super Saiyan 2 for that, which would easily suffice at the end of DBZ. But then why is it that Goku's base appears to far outclass his old SSJ form? If SSJ has limits, all other forms would likely have them as well, IMO. And to add to that, why is it that Gohan (even though they claim he got weaker) was able to fight evenly with Dabura (of whom Goku compares to Cell at the least, the one that he fought but more likely the one that Gohan fought before Goku died)? To me this either means: Gohan didn't get weaker (not likely) Kid Gohan's SSJ2 had such a MASSIVE boost during the Cell Saga that it made his SSJ form seem insignificant (well all high powers after Cell were relevant to SSJ2 Kid Gohan Dabura was way alot weaker than they thought initially(not likely considering later comments) Or Goku's SSJ increased and so did Gohan's and Vegeta's. I mean, Gohan did train with Goten before the tourney, and so SSJ Gohan was holding his own against Dabura. My theory is that Gohan didn't get weaker, but he didn't get stronger either, and got sloppy. Meanwhile releative to Vegeta and Goku (who got stronger) he seemed weak. In Dabura's case, Goku claims that even if Dabura's power was suppressed (this is before fighting him), he probably isn't any stronger than Cell was at the maximum. He overestimated him. But the whole Kaioshin thing throws me off, being so shocked by Base Goku & Vegeta but being able to one-shot Frieza and destroy Piccolo....makes me think SSJ would've had somewhat of a substantial increase as well.
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superskullmaster Broly Fans Swallow. member: postin' posse since: Jun 2009	Aug 10, 12 at 1:28pm ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	quote G_O_G_E_T_A You're referring to Goku fight with Uub at the Tenkaichi Budokai? I'm not sure how much stock to put into that to be honest. Goku kept bragging that Uub had amazing powers, but until he started pissing him off, that power didn't surface and Goku was just beating down a scared little kid who had zero knowledge on how to use his true powers. I don't quite see how that fight makes EoZ base Goku superior to his Buu arc Super Saiyan state to be completely honest. And I do feel that all Super Saiyan transformations should logically have a potential enforced limit (it's not like every level just "stops" improving at a certain, set level for every Saiyan, it should be different for each of them IMO), because if they don't, why would there even be new transformations to attain? Why not just keep getting stronger in one and the same transformation? Other than the obvious answer to entertain the masses, obviously... Easy answer. Lets say you make 10 dollars an hour. And your boss says if you work hard you can get a 1 dollar raise in 3 months. You take it, and in 3 months you make 11 an hour. Now that same boss comes back and says, I will either give you another 1 dollar raise IF you work hard for the next 9 months or you can work 3 hours overtime every weekday whenever you want. So your choice, bust your ass for 9 months for a 1 dollar raise, or work and a normal pace for 3 hours longer a day and make 15 an hour during that time? This is just like SSJ2 and SSJ3. I believe SSJ could go just as high, but the timeframe and effort required to get to that point are heavily outweighed by the fact that there is a way to get 2 to 4 times stronger instantly without months and years of hard work. Ya dig? ------------------- Chuck Norris can cut through a hot knife with butter.
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PrinceVegeta Oh Great, The Fat One's Dead! no-stoppin-me-now total posts: 260 since: Aug 2012	Aug 10, 12 at 1:31pm ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	quote superskullmaster quote G_O_G_E_T_A You're referring to Goku fight with Uub at the Tenkaichi Budokai? I'm not sure how much stock to put into that to be honest. Goku kept bragging that Uub had amazing powers, but until he started pissing him off, that power didn't surface and Goku was just beating down a scared little kid who had zero knowledge on how to use his true powers. I don't quite see how that fight makes EoZ base Goku superior to his Buu arc Super Saiyan state to be completely honest. And I do feel that all Super Saiyan transformations should logically have a potential enforced limit (it's not like every level just "stops" improving at a certain, set level for every Saiyan, it should be different for each of them IMO), because if they don't, why would there even be new transformations to attain? Why not just keep getting stronger in one and the same transformation? Other than the obvious answer to entertain the masses, obviously... Easy answer. Lets say you make 10 dollars an hour. And your boss says if you work hard you can get a 1 dollar raise in 3 months. You take it, and in 3 months you make 11 an hour. Now that same boss comes back and says, I will either give you another 1 dollar raise IF you work hard for the next 9 months or you can work 3 hours overtime every weekday whenever you want. So your choice, bust your ass for 9 months for a 1 dollar raise, or work and a normal pace for 3 hours longer a day and make 15 an hour? This is just like SSJ2 and SSJ3. I believe SSJ could go just as high, but the timeframe and effort required to get to that point are heavily outweighed by the fact that there is a way to get 2 to 4 times stronger instantly without months and years of hard work. Ya dig? Meh, not the best analogy, but I sorta get it. It also ties in with the fact that Base Goku finally seems to surpass Frieza in the Buu arc (11 years counting the ROSAT), even though he easily got past Frieza with SSJ long before.
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G_O_G_E_T_A Vocare Ad Regnum (moderator) Dragonball total posts: 16060 since: May 2006	Aug 10, 12 at 1:53pm ^ re: EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
	quote PrinceVegeta quote G_O_G_E_T_A You're referring to Goku fight with Uub at the Tenkaichi Budokai? I'm not sure how much stock to put into that to be honest. Goku kept bragging that Uub had amazing powers, but until he started pissing him off, that power didn't surface and Goku was just beating down a scared little kid who had zero knowledge on how to use his true powers. I don't quite see how that fight makes EoZ base Goku superior to his Buu arc Super Saiyan state to be completely honest. And I do feel that all Super Saiyan transformations should logically have a potential enforced limit (it's not like every level just "stops" improving at a certain, set level for every Saiyan, it should be different for each of them IMO), because if they don't, why would there even be new transformations to attain? Why not just keep getting stronger in one and the same transformation? Other than the obvious answer to entertain the masses, obviously... I actually used to think exactly as you did (SSJ never reaching Cell, SSJ2 never reaching Buu, etc, and base never reaching Frieza w/out Kaioken, though I'm not sure of your opinion on Base vs. Frieza). But I'm referring to Kaioshin's shock of the Base Saiyans' power when he claims to be able to one-shot Frieza. I have no issues with the Buu arc base Saiyans being stronger than Frieza; I would be a moron if I tried to argue against that... But in any event; I try to follow up as much as I can on what the manga shows and mentions: It has Goku flat out tell Gohan that pushing themselves any further beyond the ROSAT training is pointless as they "pushed their bodies as far as they could go". For a while now I have the theory that until a Saiyan reaches his physical prime, he should be able to keep increasing his power in portions of his total potential; portions I typically refer to as "hidden power". Hidden power gradually becomes more and more available to a Saiyan during their maturing into an adult, until they've reached their prime, and this is when they can absolute maximum power. Now as Goku was nowhere near his prime yet after he exited the ROSAT, I suppose you could easily argue that he still had plenty of improvement left to make, and he did as was shown in the Buu arc, but the lion share of that increase was manifested through Super Saiyan 2 and 3 respectively. His regular Super Saiyan form however was never hinted to have improved by a shocking amount; at best it slightly surpassed FPSSJ Gohan's power as displayed at the Cell Games, as Super Saiyan 2 Goku was only slightly stronger than SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan, provided we use identical multipliers for each Super Saiyan level. So when Goku told Gohan that the two of them had hit their limits after exiting the ROSAT, which is what he was basically meant by saying that they pushed themselves as far as they could go, that is referring to whatever amount of their total potential they had available at the time (the aforementioned hidden power). In Goku's case, that amount was not much of a big deal for his Super Saiyan state specifically, but all the more so when you look at the total picture. In Gohan's case however, he was only just in his early teens when he attained Super Saiyan; so even though he may have hit his peak at the time of his ROSAT training's completion, he still had the potential to increase much, much further, but never did so for well known reasons. To get back to the Buu arc base Saiyans having eclipsed 100% Frieza's power, and being strongly hinted to be stronger than even the likes of Piccolo and Kaioshin; I always had the idea that a Saiyans' base form has a much higher power cap, relatively taken, than any Super Saiyan transformation. Why; well that could have to do with the fact only a very small percentage of Saiyans could ever reach Super Saiyan, so for 99% of them, their base state was their sole combat state. So I suppose it makes sense that this form has a considerably greater "tolerance on limits". And indeed; if the Buu arc base Saiyans are above Piccolo, then they've obviously surpassed the power Super Saiyan Goku had when he fought Frieza on planet Namek, but let's face it; that's damn near prehistoric during the time of the Buu arc's events. I think it's perfectly reasonable that a Buu arc base Saiyan that has endured one otherworldly experience after the other could exceed his own Super Saiyan power from decades ago; but I don't see the possibility that their base would be more powerful than their Super Saiyan state at one and the same time... This, on a side-note, is however my main motivation for using a considerably lower Super Saiyan boost during the Buu arc. 50x no longer seems to work, it makes power comparisons way too bloated IMO. It works fine up until the ROSAT, but after that, I ditched it. I hope I didn't make this explanation too unclear. If I did, let me know Edit: Aug 11, 12 3:03am
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EoZ Base Goku/SSJ Goku vs Super Perfect Cell - Page 2

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