End of Z Goku. - Page 18

MSSJ3/FPSSJ3 Goku EOZ=SSJ Gotenks(post Rosat)
Base Goku(EOZ) is not equal to Kid buu or even his SSJ3(Buu arc) IM0.

quote XxSkelterXx

I think it's implied that Goku made no significant gains by the end of the Dragonball Z manga. I mean, think about it for one minute. Goku thinks that Oob=Kid Boo, and he still tells Mr. Satan that he might not win.. That right there implies no significant gains.

Or it implies that Goku never intended to go SSJ. Like so many others have repeated to you time and time again... the Z-Fighters have always tried to avoid using transformations in the tourneys, so it's perfectly reasonable that Goku wasn't factoring SSJ in.

I don't believe that, I really don't think Goku got THAT much stronger... however, I'm not going to sit here with my head up my own ass and try to tell anyone that the above theory isn't still valid.

This case should have been closed 10 pages ago at least.

quote XxSkelterXx

quote Blockinlick

Or it implies that Goku never intended to go SSJ. Like so many others have repeated to you time and time again...

Show me one single shred of evidence that the no Super Saiyan rule was still in effect..

quote Blockinlick

the Z-Fighters have always tried to avoid using transformations in the tourneys, so it's perfectly reasonable that Goku wasn't factoring SSJ in.

Really, is that why Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Goku and Vegeta all transformed in front of everybody?? Even if I was to believe such baseless Bullshit, why would I believe that Vegeta out of all people would agree to loose to a kid just because he promised Goku he wouldn't go Ssj?
Why would Goku think he might not win? Why would Goku be stoked about fighting a guy that he can one-shot without using a quarter of his power?

quote Blockinlick

I don't believe that, I really don't think Goku got THAT much stronger... however, I'm not going to sit here with my head up my own ass and try to tell anyone that the above theory isn't still valid.

Nobody told you to put your head up your ass, that's all you my friend.

quote Blockinlick

This case should have been closed 10 pages ago at least.

Why, because you say so??

I grow tired of arguing with stubborn people, but I'll give it a one last shot.

1. That's almost like asking for proof that God does or doesn't exist... it's a bullshit request to be honest. It's something that's just implied and assumed. However... to the contrary, there just happens to BE evidence.

Go watch Episode 193, Gather for the Tournament. At about the 10:35 mark in the episode [Video] I'm watching... Gohan, Vegeta, and co. are flying in their plane and Gohan says

Gohan: So listen Vegeta, and this goes for you kids too. I think we should all agree to not turn into Super Saiyans during the fights.
Vegeta: What for?!
Bulma: That's a good idea... if people see you guys transform, there's a good chance they'll recognize you from the broadcast of the Cell games. And after that, well, the journalists would get all your names off the entry forms and UHH! TV camera's would be all over my front yard.
Gohan: Then you'd all know what I have to deal with in high school. It's a real mess!
Vegeta: I don't see the problem. When the journalists com,e I'll just destroy them!
Bulma: Vegeta... would you just behave yourself?!
Vegeta: Fine, it's settled, there will be no super saiyan transformations in the battles. Of course, I'll still have the advantage.
Trunks: That's okay with us, dad.
Goten: Yeah!

So here it is... the Buu saga, and they're openly acknowledging the no transformation rule. I mean, one could argue that Goku wasn't there for that discussion and therefor didn't plan on following it, but also, one could also argue that he did too. Personally, I think Goku knows better than Gohan the importance of not going SSJ. It would sell him short to think otherwise.

As for this

quote

Really, is that why Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Goku and Vegeta all transformed in front of everybody??

No, this is the bullshit and you know it. You're not even trying to debate at all here... cause you know better. You know that Goten and Trunks tried to obey the rule and admitted to breaking it. They couldn't help it. You know that Gohan was enticed into transforming... and you also know that Vegeta is one defiant son of a bitch, and nothing is going to stop him from victory, especially not some "No SSJ" rule... we all know he would never obey it. That doesn't mean that Goku wouldn't and that doesn't mean that Goku wouldn't expect Vegeta to either. [Foolishly]. All of these transformations were under unusual or exceptional circumstances. So the fact that you'd try to use them as evidence of a "lack of a rule" is shameful.

Goku came to the tournament expecting a SSJ free, level playing field... and he didn't get it. That is, at least, the theory supporting what Cooler was debating.

Again, I'll have to repeat that I don't necessarily believe his theory either. I don't think Goku was that strong, I just at least have an open mind enough to see that his theory is still remotely viable.

Considering that the reason for not turning Super Saiyan was to preserve their secret and that their secret ended up being revealed anyway due to Gohan , Vegeta and Goku's various transformations at the Budokai , there would be no secret to keep , hence the reason not transform would be gone.

quote XxSkelterXx

Ok, now that you showed me evidence that All the saiyans agreed to not transform into Super Saiyans at the previous Budokai, how about showing evidence that said rule existed 10 years later?? How about providing evidence that Vegeta agreed to such rule?? One single quote, and I will agree.

I don't think it existed then either, but as far as I'm concerned, it's still reasonable to think that it did. There is no proof of it, just that some think it's implied. And I'm okay with agreeing to disagree on that one. You're not... that's the problem here.

No Michael, you can't counter that. Just because Piccolo, a namekian reincarnation ended up being stronger than King Piccolo, doesnt mean this reincarnation works the same way.. this reincarnation was set up by Yema, I doubt it works the same.. and base Goku keeping up with Oob implies Kid Boo>>>>>>>>>> Oob

Your comparison doesn't hold up because like you said, Piccolo had to train in order to become as strong as he is. I am not arguing that with enough training Oob can't surpass Kid Boo. My argument is that when he fought Goku he wasn't.

quote CrescentSplash

quote XxSkelterXx

I think it's implied that Goku made no significant gains by the end of the Dragonball Z manga. I mean, think about it for one minute. Goku thinks that Oob=Kid Boo, and he still tells Mr. Satan that he might not win.. That right there implies no significant gains.

Or it implies this Uub has the potential to be stronger then Kid Buu if pushed to the limits. He could become stronger. No one said he would be stuck with the exact power level as Kid Buu for the rest of his life.

It's like Kid Gohan pushed to the breaking point that he'd display unimaginable power.

But that's how I interpret it. I'm not sure

You all get sidetracked and distracted from the main points and premises way too easily.

Skelters main point is that Uub wasn't even remotely close to his true power level when Goku fought him at the tourney. The entire premise of his argument is that Gokus base was not as strong as Kid Buu like so many keep claiming.

Gokus base being as strong as Kid Buu is ridiculous, because even a SSJ3 Goku could barely handle him... and it's only barely viable to suggest that Goku had improved enough to make his base = to any SSJ3. I think it's ridiculous to think that he had, but I must admit, there is not enough evidence to actually prove otherwise.

My entire argument here is just to convince Skelter of that and leave it as it is, an argument that can only be resolved by agreeing to disagree. There's just not enough to prove it.