CatouttaHell's Battle Powers List - Page 9

quote xMakuux

Does not mean Super < Kid. Probably the last time I bring up this point, because I hate repeating myself over and over, but there's always a different route.

He makes a blast with enough power to annihilate the Earth, as opposed to Super Buu, who wanted to fight what Earth could offer, before doing that is just as valid an interpretation as yours.

I'll just repeat what I said when we had this discussion over on DaizEX about that line saying nothing about him becoming mindless or anything. I feel like the other quote you posted and the one I posted are just talking about the two main things that happened to Shin when he became Chibi and how they contributed to him destroying the Earth.

Not saying I think your interpretation is wrong or any less valid than mine, just saying how I feel about this.

quote xMakuux

And it's stated by Piccolo that Super can do what Kid did anyways:

quote Herms

Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P3.4
Context: Boo fires a huge beam of energy into the sky
Piccolo: “If it had taken th-that head on, the Ea-Earth would have been wiped out without a trace…!”

Meh, I don't know how accurate planet busting statements really are. I mean almost all of them are most likely false. Cell claimed his Kamehameha would destroy the solar system and yet his Kamehameha clashing with and getting over-powered by an even bigger one didn't even destroy the planet it happened on. Vegeta at 18,000 claimed he'd destroy the planet and yet Fat Boo who is in the billions at least only destroyed 1/10th of it with his Kamehameha.

Not saying Piccolo is wrong, just that planet-busting lines seem to mostly be inaccurate. And even if Piccolo is right, it's still kind of interesting how a huge blast like what Shin Boo did was his only attack that was stated to be planet-busting level, yet Chibi Boo was about to bust the planet the first time with a lazy, uncharged Ki blast.

quote xMakuux

For another Daizenshuu quote:

quote

Majin Buu had lost his reason. Using super power, he randomly destroys the Earth.

Which supports Buu doing it just because he wasn't attached to the planet anymore, not because he got a massive power-up.

Well like I said on DaizEX, I believe those quotes were talking about different things. The one you posted is about Boo becoming mindless once he turned Chibi, the one I posted is about him getting a huge power-up (I have Chibi Boo over 2x Shin Boo personally).

The one I posted says absolutely nothing about his mindstate. I mean, this is common knowledge to us hardcore fans but guidebooks are generally for people who may not know a lot about the series and are for guiding them through the series.

It seems that given that context it was merely referring to him powering up and not becoming mindless but I definitely can see where you're coming from.

quote xMakuux

As for the tiny stuff. Well Goku never confirms the theory, it's something you can only assume. All he does say is that they can't match Evil Buu's strength and that they need either Potara or Fusion to win.
The "like this" in the following quote has always been debated as referring to Goku and Vegeta's size.

quote Herms

Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

However it's followed up by Goku stating Vegeta shouldn't have destroyed the potara, so it's more than likely that "like this" refers to them being unfused.

He's also fairly certain that they can just go outside and merge, if they still had the potara, so carrying the others shouldn't be a problem either.

quote

Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…”
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell ya to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”

In fact it's first after Goku's line about being no match for Buu's strength, that he finds out about them having a tiny problem.

We see this, when he was surprised, that him being that tiny made him unable to do anything to Buu, so it seems unlikely, that he would base his inferiority on his tinyness, when he thought that as tiny he should be able to do what he wanted. Not to mention the fact that he doesn't state it to be the case.

Well look at this Shin Boo quote:

quote Herms

Boo: “It stung a little here, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than flees.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”

Seems like that's why Shin Boo himself thinks they can't win. It seems suspicious to me that he wants to fuse if the only problem there is that Shin Boo is allegedly stronger than them. Gohan and Gotenks are with them and Gokū wants to fuse with Vegeta. Since his plan is to get a new pair of Potara he's thinking about breaking out of Boo and teleporting to the Kaioshin Realm.

Kibitoshin can heal people so they'll easily be able to awaken Gohan and Gotenks and have them ready to fight. We saw by their performances that they're both above Shin Boo, yet Gokū chooses the convoluted plan to somehow convince the incredibly stubborn Vegeta to permanently fuse with him AGAIN, teleport to the Kaioshin Realm hoping Boo doesn't kill them before they can, and permanently fusing over the far simpler and more reasonable plan of having Gohan-tachi do it for them.

To me it seems like either Gokū has suddenly become stupid or there's more to Shin Boo than just his Battle Power. Speaking of stupid, I don't know how Gokū couldn't have figured out they were tiny yet. I mean I don't think he knew the sheer magnitude of their tiny problem yet but it's obvious to anybody if they're walking around inside the body of someone who isn't even twice your size that you have seriously shrunk.

The way I see it is: he wanted to Potara fuse because Shin Boo was now *bleep*ing huge compared to them. SSjin 3 Gokū and Chou Gohan would both smash Shin Boo's face in with normal circumstances but considering their tiny problem they had to go with the most overkill option they had: fusing back into Vegetto. Considering this is the guy who somehow withstood being magically turned into a candy and just continued to rape Boo unhindered I wouldn't be surprised if he could defeat Boo even shrunk down.

quote xMakuux

And Gohan got stronger than Goku. Daizenshuu 7 notes in Gohan's bio, that he potentially has wondrouds power greater than Goku's. Fast forward to the Elder Kaioshin deal and we learn that the old geezer is releasing all of Gohan's dormant power.

quote

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P2.5
Context: Gohan is impatient with the speed of Elder Kaioshin’s power-up
Elder Kaioshin: “Hmm…The fact that we aren’t done yet…Shows that your dormant abilities are extremely incredible.”

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P4.9, P5.1-2
Context: after Gohan’s unintentional display of power
Goku: “…Am…amazin’…So he really wasn’t just some regular dirty old geezer?...*talking to Kaioshin* ‘Do-dormant ability’…That’s a person’s true power, that they have hidden all along…Right?”
Kaioshin: “Ye-yeah…I-I think so…”
Goku: “Mu-must be…Man, Go-Gohan…Just how the heck much power is he hiding?...”

Well just because Gokū is surprised doesn't mean Gohan is stronger than him, it just means he got a huge power-up. Hell, going by his "so he really wasn't just some regular dirty old geezer" line it sounds like he's mainly so surprised because he was thinking that Old Kaioshin was useless and lying.

Also, regarding Daizenshuu 7, I think the key word is "potentially." I just don't view Old Kaioshin's power-up as something that predictable at all. I think if he went to some alternate universe where Raditz, etc never happened and Gohan was just some weak halfbreed who spent his life studying and never trained and gave him that power-up he'd be WORLDS below our Ultimate Gohan.

I feel that if he had trained more he would've definitely had power beyond that of Gokū's but that as it stands he doesn't. I mean the series is all about surpassing one's limits and reaching new plateaus, etc.

The way I see it, if Gohan trained as much as Gokū did he would definitely be stronger, but as it stands Gokū with all of that Otherworld training, etc he did to advance further and further has greater potential Gohan in the Boo Arc. Very good points by the way, man. I may not agree with you but I can tell you know your stuff, and it's nice to see somebody else here who actually takes the official guidebooks seriously.

quote CatouttaHell

Gokū never thinks of fusing with Mr. Satan to fight Shin Boo. Now you're just plain making stuff up. He only wanted to fuse with him against Boohan and I never said Goku > Boohan, if that's what you were never said Goku > Boohan.

Not directly no,but you keep saying Buuhan used some of Kid's power,and you have Kid as strongest of Buus so as to set up Goku>everyone scenario,just sayin

Daizenshuu also half asses its credibility with multiple contradictions mang,and no,it is not a better source.
One is what the writer made,his words,while the is merely approved by him,most likely not even proof read by him.
If the manga states Super>Kid,which it does,then by default it is automatically a better source than the Daizenshuu.
Just like manga>anime,same toilet,different shit.

And manga states Gotenks>Goku,again,by default its a better source.Not only that but Gotenks fought evenly with a guy who Goku wanted no part of,funny that for the first time ever in the series A guy stronger than him doesn't get him excited to the point where he wants to fight em.

quote CatouttaHell

Don't forget they had Gohan and Gotenks with them, albeit unconscious. They could easily pop out of Boo, teleport over to Dende or Kibitoshin and have them heal them to wake them up. IMO it wasn't actual power that was the issue, just the whole size difference. Gokū was surprised when they came out of Boo and returned to their normal size, so he clearly wasn't counting on that. Vegetto would also be the size of a flea but he's, well, Vegetto.

Goku wasn't surprised he turned big again. It's just a face of excitement... who wouldn't be after turning huge all of a sudden? They even thought they were small and unfused because of the air inside Boo.

And you realize the Daizenshuu is basically THEIR interpretation of the manga, mixed in with a few Toriyama interviews and facts? Quotes and a fight from the manga prove FP SSj3 Goku >=< Kid Boo and FP Kamehameha >> Kid Boo.

No, both Vegeta AND Goku think he can defeat Kid Boo. Really what the hell would be the point of giving Goku a strainful transformation that rapidly drains your ki, if your opponent is already multiple times stronger than you! The reason the transformation had so many faults and Kid Boo so many hax powers was so the audience would stay on the edge of their seat. It makes it pointless and anti-climatic if the main character never stood a chance in the first place. And please do not use the excuse "well it's the Boo saga afterall..." This is not how a story works and Toriyama was not intending fans to think Kid Boo >>>> SSj3 Goku by having them fight evenly.

Regarding Super Boo, remember that Goku told Vegeta they were still no match for him. It had nothing to do with them being small, they just can't defeat him without merging.

I do think Cell could bust a star which is what he meant by destroying the solar system. Sun destroyed = Solar System gone

^Lol @ the flea arguement


Gonna do a quick run through to end this topic real quick. Let me know if I miss anything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Point. 1-
"They said Kid Buu was stronger!


No, they didn't They were referring to Buff Buu who was formed once Vegeta removed Fat Buu. Kid Buu absorbs the South Kai, he becomes Buff Buu. He then absorbs the Dai Kai. He becomes Fat Buu. It's stated that the Dai Kai's influence weakened him, but not the Southern Kai's, hinting that it actually made him stronger.
http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+42&page=70
(VIZ translation from the other thread, since I prefer that over some of this...)
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j5...buu3-1.jpg(all it states differently is that it confirms Buff Buu's existence)
Therefore, we know that Buff Buu>Kid Buu. Now let's take a look at the transformation after Vegeta removes Fat Buu(who contains the Kai's influence...)

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+42&page=66

Oh no, he's stated to be getting stronger. It's still Super Buu in the panel on the top right, so the transformation hasn't really started yet, but it gets underway right before they make that statement. You can clearly see that Buu's arm is much thicker. Now it continues...

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+42&page=67

This is after he is stated to be "getting stronger". You can clearly see Buff Buu at the top! Goku then states he's changing again, thus given notion to a continued change, in stages(which is also what is shown visually)

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+42&page=68

Stated to be changing again, this time by Vegeta. Obviously the transformation wasn't an instant process...it happens in stages(as provided by the manga)

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+42&page=69

Well, Vegeta says they can "handle that". Don't be too quick to jump on the "midget" bandwagon, so to speak, because Frieza was a "midget" and Vegeta certainly didn't under estimate him because of his size...did he? So we have a statement here by a main character that they should be able to handle him...That's not the main argument though, it just gives credence to the fact that the transformation happened in stages, and that when he is stated to be getting stronger, it was one PHASE of the transformation, which logically is the phase that included the South Kai's influence...

Also, take the weakest Kaioshins power, who could knock Frieza out with one blow, who was stronger than Piccolo was stronger than the androids(and maybe a bit stronger later on) and you can see how the strongest of the 5 kaioshins would definitely have an extreme bit of power, enough to definitely make Kid Buu stronger. He's never stated to make him weaker, that's the Dai Kai, and as the transformation is seen to happen in stages, it's very safe to assume that at first, Buff Buu is the complete power of Kid Buu/South Kai with *NO influence from the DK, while Kid Buu is the final removal of all influence from all Kais.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+42&page=70

One more quick point, something about absorbing souls making him more tame and it's plural form meaning "two", thus giving evidence that both influences from the Kai's made KB weaker...well, it's stated "tame", which means more controllable, which was the point of Majin Buu in the first place(Bibidi to rule universe)...that doesn't mean weaker. It's directly stated in the scan provided that Dai Kai weakens him, but by his removal from mentioning, it proves that the South Kai didn't weaken him either...so it likely made him stronger.

Also, see Point 5* for more details regarding any of this changing crap


Quote:
Originally Posted by Point. 2
"Kid Buu was just toying with Goku and could have ended it anytime he wanted. Kid Buu>>>>Goku!"

Let's see, shall we? Goku completely destroys Buu, lands most of his blows, goes toe-to-toe with him and even dodges a candy blast from Buu(which would have ended the fight there, completely). In fact, it's stated from the beginning that Kid Buu is insane and is completely off the wall. Dangerous. He doesn't have it in his mental vocabulary to "slow down, suppress power". This is evident by him destroying earth from the get go.

Anyway, Goku claims that no matter what he does, Buu comes back "good as new". He states this after completely oblierating him with a Kamehameha move(which would have won the fight had Buu not been a "re generator" tehehe Gotenks!)

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...me+42&page=104

They also fight evenly, and Goku states that his full power hasn't even been achieved yet...


http://i55.tinypic.com/2gya7bb.jpg

Thus, it's a safe bet that ssj3 Goku is at LEAST equal to Kid Buu...and he wasn't even using his full power, or able to.
http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...me+42&page=131

A real quick point in regards to Goku saying "he's not even taking me seriously", he says that before they even start fighting. Goku hasn't even attempted to attack yet...Kid Buu is simply sleeping. Goku isn't even a ssj3 yet.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+42&page=91

So, to say he was "toying" with Goku is in technique only. He was still going for the kill, as evident by his chocolate beam attack, and Goku completely obliterating him with his Kamehameha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Point. 3
"Goku says he needs the potara to defeat Kid Buu!"

He states that he can't get to full power, proof provided by scans earlier, and that because he's not able to get to full power, the potara would be the logical solution. As we know, Goku claims at first that they need to use the potara against Super Buu.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+42&page=52
http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+42&page=55

Notice how mad Goku is in the second post, but in this one, he doesn't seem to be too particularly annoyed?

http://i55.tinypic.com/2gya7bb.jpg

he's hurt but not desperate. Now on to my next point: Goku himself turns down the potara before the fight with Kid Buu.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+42&page=85

The line about Vegeta is semantics. He states he wants to fight him on his own, then says "anyway[I.E besides] it wouldn't matter". Why would he do this if he wasn't confident he could beat Kid Buu on his own accord?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Point. 4
"Kid Buu spits out Fat Buu AFTER! the fight has begun!"

Semantics. They had detached Fat Buu from the pod, and he was just chilling around in his body. He had no barring on his power whatsoever, it would be like saying Super Buu gained from having Veget and Goku inside of him. He didn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Point. 5
"something, something, something about Evil Buu and Good Buu and shouldn't Super Buu be equal to Fat Buu

Yea, this gets me sometimes, and it's not clearly stated and a lot has to be inferred with this, but basically you have 8(fat buu), it splits, and if it was an even split, you would get 4 and 4 and it would be an even fight. But it's shown not to be. Evil Buu dominates Good Buu. Therefore, Evil Buu must have 5, and Good Buu must have 3. He absorbs him and it's back to 8.

Except it isn't. He's stated to have gotten *STRONGER*

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+41&page=31

So how do you account for this? You have to. You can't ignore it. The only way to account for it, in my personal opinion, is to say that Fat Buu was the result of the Dai Kai's influence being dominant, while Super Buu was the result of the South Kai's influence being dominate. It makes sense, and it actually is corroborated when Vegeta removes Fat Buu from Super Buu. We see the transformation take effect in stages, visually this is indisputable(proven early).

That's how you explain why a split being is stronger when put back together than he was when he split. This gives credence to the fact that SK Buu>Kid Buu, unless you somehow don't believe that the SK made Buu stronger, despite the fact that the DK is the only being mentioned to have weakened Buu. This directly explains the point above about how Buff Buu was stated to be stronger, then changes back down to Kid Buu and could be weaker(and stated manageable)

So yea, how do you account for Super Buu>Fat Buu without explaining the Kai influence being a factor?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Point. 6
"But Kid Buu is the last villain! He logically is the strongest"

It's speculation, but common fan speculation(take this with a grain of salt though, please) that AT was pressured into making Goku the hero again. Numerous polls from the Daiz and what not showed Goku to be the most popular character at the time, and DB was an immensely popular series during it's initial run. It's also not the first time an author has changed the story in order to appease fans. There's little real evidence of this, other than the convoluted Buu saga itself, and a statement he makes regarding the end.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Akira Toriyama!
I truly thank you for faithfully reading Dragon Ball for so terribly long. I’m very grateful for how you all supported me up until the very end. The truth is that I decided on this a long time ago but a lot happened, so please forgive me for announcing this so suddenly.

For this new step in my life, I’ve asked a big favor of everyone concerned and am ending this manga. Of course, I humbly apologize to all you fans too. I'm very sorry. From now on, I think I will take a little break, and then leisurely draw one-shot works. You’ll definitely see me again. I think it (should) certainly be interesting, so look forward to it! Well, until that day, this is goodbye. Let’s meet again.

There are *SLIGHT undertones of pressure, but like I said, take it with a grain of salt. It's certainly an explanation for why the Buu saga gets so convoluted. Also notice how he apologizes, and says that he had it planned for a while but "a lot happened". It's speculation, but a logical one.

Anyway, how this ties in is this: Goku has to be the hero. Goku is weaker than Gotenks/Gohan, thus Kid Buu has to also be weaker in order to match up against Goku. It's just a logical speculation if you put the pieces together, but it also adds to the theory and completely discredits the "last villain" argument. Sure Gohan could have whooped Kid Buu, but that's not what the fans wanted to see. They wanted to see Goku at his strongest save the day. How could Goku do that if he was going up against much more powerful incarnations of villains? He was stated to not be able to beat Fat Buu earlier, so Goku's statement later on is a retcon in order to explain him fighting against Buu now. That also gives credence to the "fan cave in pressure" theory. But, all of this should be taken with a grain of salt and I'm merely adding on.



------------------------------

Okay, so that ends that. Now we get back to basics, Goku states that Super Buu is too strong for him...

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+42&page=52

As a quick FOOT NOTE....let's examine something that isn't a direct argument, but a good little quip, my boy GOTENKS! The Grim Reaper of Justice. I'm surprised he doesn't get brought up more often in this argument.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+40&page=10
http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+40&page=48
http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...ume+40&page=63

Numerous statements by Goku that suggest Gotenks>himself, or at the very least, Gotenks Fat Buu, who was comparable to ssj3 Goku. Granted, Gotenks Base loses badly to Fat Buu, but all that shows is that Base Gotenks is comparable to a ssj2(he only got beat as badly as Vegeta did) and anyway, it's irrelevant. When Goku is making his statements in regards to Gotenks, he is referring to their max power, which would obviously be Super Saiyan, seeing as Goku knows the boys can go Super Saiyan. He doesn't know they can go ssj3. He is shocked they can, so this gives evidence that Goku is referring to SSJ Gotenks when he says that Gotenks is stronger than himself.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...me+41&page=102

Anyway, all this is leading to is Super Saiyan Gotenks>=<ssj3 Goku. IDC if he's exactly equal, or a little weaker or stronger, it's not by much based on statements and the Goku's fight with Fat Buu. This is also PRE-ROAST(hahah). Post-ROAST(can't resist now lol) Gotenks is even STRONGER! So all of this combines to say that, Gotenks is of comparable strength to Goku's max..

So....what I'm getting at is, ssj Gotenks=ssj3 Goku, so obviously ssj3 Gotenks is 8x stronger(using the LOW SEG multipliers, which most people don't even agree with), and ssj3 Gotenks fights evenly with Super Buu. Therefore, Super Buu is 8x stronger than ssj3 Goku. For Kid Buu to be stronger than Super Buu he would have to be more than 8x stronger than Goku, and based on their fight, that's not shown to be the case, at all.

All in all, it still comes down to the simple logic that...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzer
Goku says he is weaker then super buu
Goku < super buu
Goku says he is stronger then kid buu at full power
Goku > Kid Buu
Super Buu > Kid Buu its simple logic

-petewentz

Goku could've beaten kid buu if he didn't play around too much, pretty selfish of Goku when he knows the SSJ3 strains his body more than it does when he's alive

quote DragonEmperor

Goku could've beaten kid buu if he didn't play around too much, pretty selfish of Goku when he knows the SSJ3 strains his body more than it does when he's alive

He stated he'd been trying to finish Kid Buu all along. Plus there's the numerous times Goku's mentioned training so he can fight Kid Buu again etc...

Wait so was Gokū not able to defeat Chibi Boo because he's selfish and played around too much, or because he didn't have the opportunity to because Boo was all over his arse? Which one are you arguing?