SSJ Multiplier

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Divine Saiya-jin starting to like it total posts: 69 since: Apr 2011	May 03, 11 at 8:13pm ^ SSJ Multiplier
	Log in to remove this sponsored message I would like to see what everyone thinks about the multipliers in the SSJ form. Does it stay at 50X? Does it rise or fall later on in the series? I tend to think it raises based on USSJ and MSSJ but I'm not sure how to thoroughly explain it. Does anyone have any theories on this or explanations to their standpoint? If you think it drops please give me a good reason for why you believe it and vice versa with anything else.
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XxSkelterXx “Dubito ergo cogito; cogito ergo sum. Permanently Plugged In total posts: 13265 since: Aug 2010	May 03, 11 at 8:28pm ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	I tend to think it stays the same, but if the choice would be Go up or down, i will go with up.
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Cooler Still Seekin' total posts: 3803 since: Dec 2009	May 03, 11 at 8:30pm ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	I used to think the multiplier went up, I had MSSJ as a 150x boost or there abouts but the kili sequence heavily points to a reduced boost which is what I go with.
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Victorious Hooked on Neo total posts: 4198 since: Jan 2011	May 03, 11 at 8:35pm ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	Well a lot of power level nerds don't like the 50x boost because the base Saiyans are all much ahead of Piccolo by the Buu saga. And since Gohan in the initial Buu saga is significantly weaker than he was at the Cell games, it also means Gohan's base power post ROSAT would be stronger than Piccolo. I used to try and make the boost 4 or 5x, but really all there is evidence for that is the the extraordinary strength of the base Saiyans and base Fusions going against it. Also the Kili system where Goku was fighting Yakkon and then as a Super Saiyan he had a 3,000 kili rating while Yakkon had an 800 kili rating, and Goku was doing better than Yakkon. But, we know for sure Super Saiyan Goku was actually suppressed because Dabura is much stronger than 3,000 kilis, but much weaker than Super Saiyan pre Majin Saiyan Vegeta, much less Super saiyan Goku. So really, after that there's nothing to imply it got smaller. Unless you count Pikkon taking off his weights, which is filler, plus nothing suggests Pikkon can't get 50x stronger by taking off his weights...it just sounds ridiculous, that all. It's just the base Saiyans are so strong by the Buu arc, most don't use 50x boosts. If they do they ignore all the implications and put Piccolo ahead of the base Saiyans. I however, do not, i've got 50x boost and still have the base Saiyans over Piccolo in the Buu arc, Vegeta and Goku in base blow Piccolo out of the water, while Gohan is still superior, not to a huge degree though IMO. base kid Trunks and Goten are all around Android 18's level of power, and if base kid Trunks and Goten can be that freaking strong then for sure Vegeta and Goku can be above Piccolo as it's implied in like 4 different occasions. The trips to the ROSAT for the Saiyans were massive power increases. Prior to the ROSAT, Piccolo as merged with Kami was stronger than all Super Saiyans...after the Saiyans emerge form the ROSAT, Goku and for certain Gohan are all way more than 50x Piccolo, and although Piccolo gets a big power up from the ROSAT, he's still under 50x SSJ Gohan at the Cell games...base Gohan at the Cell games is way stronger than him. Edit: May 03, 11 ------------------- Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list
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Kaboom s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1679 since: Mar 2011	May 03, 11 at 8:41pm ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	If it was supposed to be any more or less than 50x, then we'd have been told so by now. The manga has been over for over ten years now, but not only did anyone within the story never suggest "Super Saiyan has become weaker/stronger" in all that time, but also all the guidebooks and what-not ever since then still cite it and consider it as a 50x boost (including the GT books, of all things!). Even when we were just recently given proportionate figures for SSj2 and SSj3, they were still working off of 50x for Super Saiyan. So... that's that, I guess? From a more practical standpoint, I don't think it's always at exactly 50x. Depending on things like how practiced the user is with it, or how long the user has had it, or whether they've mastered it, and so forth, it might vary slightly. Character A who sucks with it and hasn't practiced might get more like a 45x boost while Character B who's perfected and gained control (i.e. FPSSj) might get more like 55x. But when it comes to making Power Level lists, it's easier just to use 50x for everyone. Much less of a headache that way, although I usually end up rounding things here and there at my own whims anyhoo.
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Divine Saiya-jin starting to like it total posts: 69 since: Apr 2011	May 03, 11 at 8:55pm ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	quote Victorious Well a lot of power level nerds don't like the 50x boost because the base Saiyans are all much ahead of Piccolo by the Buu saga. And since Gohan in the initial Buu saga is significantly weaker than he was at the Cell games, it also means Gohan's base power post ROSAT would be stronger than Piccolo. I used to try and make the boost 4 or 5x, but really all there is evidence for that is the the extraordinary strength of the base Saiyans and base Fusions going against it. Also the Kili system where Goku was fighting Yakkon and then as a Super Saiyan he had a 3,000 kili rating while Yakkon had an 800 kili rating, and Goku was doing better than Yakkon. But, we know for sure Super Saiyan Goku was actually suppressed because Dabura is much stronger than 3,000 kilis, but much weaker than Super pre Majin Saiyan Vegeta, much less Super saiyan Goku. So really, after that there's nothing to imply it got smaller. Unless you count Pikkon taking off his weights, which is filler, and plus nothing suggests Pikkon can't get 50x stronger by taking off his weights...it just sounds ridiculous, that all. It's just the base Saiyans are so strong by the Buu arc, most don't use 50x boosts. If they do they ignore all the implications and put Piccolo ahead of the base Saiyans. I however, do not, i've got 50x boost and still have the base Saiyans over Piccolo in the Buu arc, Vegeta and Goku in base blow Piccolo out of the water, while Gohan is still much superior, not to a huge degree though IMO. base kid Trunks and Goten are all around Android 18's level of power, and if base kid Trunks and Goten can be that freaking strong then for sure Vegeta and Goku can be above Piccolo like it's implied in like 4 different occasions. The trips to the ROSAT for the Saiyans were massive power increases. Prior to the ROSAT, Piccolo as merged with Kami was stronger than all Super Saiyans...after the Saiyans emerge form the ROSAT Goku and for certain Gohan are all way more than 50x Piccolo, and although Piccolo gets a big power up from the ROSAT, he's still under 50x SSJ Gohan at the Cell games...base Gohan at the Cell games is way stronger than him. Piccolo, who after Great answer! It would keep everything consistent with the manga. I'm not sure how you have Piccolo weaker than the base saiyajins during Cell games though. I tend to think their MSSJ and SSJ forms were more than 50X by then so that would make it easier for Piccolo to be stronger than their base. quote Kaboom If it was supposed to be any more or less than 50x, then we'd have been told so by now. The manga has been over for over ten years now, but not only did anyone within the story never suggest "Super Saiyan has become weaker/stronger" in all that time, but also all the guidebooks and what-not ever since then still cite it and consider it as a 50x boost (including the GT books, of all things!). Even when we were just recently given proportionate figures for SSj2 and SSj3, they were still working off of 50x for Super Saiyan. So... that's that, I guess? From a more practical standpoint, I don't think it's always at exactly 50x. Depending on things like how practiced the user is with it, or how long the user has had it, or whether they've mastered it, and so forth, it might vary slightly. Character A who sucks with it and hasn't practiced might get more like a 45x boost while Character B who's perfected and gained control (i.e. FPSSj) might get more like 55x. But when it comes to making Power Level lists, it's easier just to use 50x for everyone. Much less of a headache that way, although I usually end up rounding things here and there at my own whims anyhoo. You are right but how much can we consider these guides anyways when the manga is more canon then they are? This message was merged with other messages by Old Man Zangetsu (moderator)
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Victorious Hooked on Neo total posts: 4198 since: Jan 2011	May 03, 11 at 9:57pm ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	quote Divine Saiya-jin quote Victorious Well a lot of power level nerds don't like the 50x boost because the base Saiyans are all much ahead of Piccolo by the Buu saga. And since Gohan in the initial Buu saga is significantly weaker than he was at the Cell games, it also means Gohan's base power post ROSAT would be stronger than Piccolo. I used to try and make the boost 4 or 5x, but really all there is evidence for that is the the extraordinary strength of the base Saiyans and base Fusions going against it. Also the Kili system where Goku was fighting Yakkon and then as a Super Saiyan he had a 3,000 kili rating while Yakkon had an 800 kili rating, and Goku was doing better than Yakkon. But, we know for sure Super Saiyan Goku was actually suppressed because Dabura is much stronger than 3,000 kilis, but much weaker than Super pre Majin Saiyan Vegeta, much less Super saiyan Goku. So really, after that there's nothing to imply it got smaller. Unless you count Pikkon taking off his weights, which is filler, and plus nothing suggests Pikkon can't get 50x stronger by taking off his weights...it just sounds ridiculous, that all. It's just the base Saiyans are so strong by the Buu arc, most don't use 50x boosts. If they do they ignore all the implications and put Piccolo ahead of the base Saiyans. I however, do not, i've got 50x boost and still have the base Saiyans over Piccolo in the Buu arc, Vegeta and Goku in base blow Piccolo out of the water, while Gohan is still much superior, not to a huge degree though IMO. base kid Trunks and Goten are all around Android 18's level of power, and if base kid Trunks and Goten can be that freaking strong then for sure Vegeta and Goku can be above Piccolo like it's implied in like 4 different occasions. The trips to the ROSAT for the Saiyans were massive power increases. Prior to the ROSAT, Piccolo as merged with Kami was stronger than all Super Saiyans...after the Saiyans emerge form the ROSAT Goku and for certain Gohan are all way more than 50x Piccolo, and although Piccolo gets a big power up from the ROSAT, he's still under 50x SSJ Gohan at the Cell games...base Gohan at the Cell games is way stronger than him. Piccolo, who after Great answer! It would keep everything consistent with the manga. I'm not sure how you have Piccolo weaker than the base saiyajins during Cell games though. I tend to think their MSSJ and SSJ forms were more than 50X by then so that would make it easier for Piccolo to be stronger than their base. Goku and for certain Gohan were greater than Piccolo in the Cell games. Gohan is weaker in the Buu arc than he is in the Cell games, so his base should also be weaker. And yet still base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo in the Buu saga....it's not known whether Piccolo got stronger or just stayed the same in the 7 years between Cell and Buu, but for sure he's still weaker than base Gohan. ------------------- Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list
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Kaboom s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1679 since: Mar 2011	May 03, 11 at 10:25pm ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	quote Divine Saiya-jin You are right but how much can we consider these guides anyways when the manga is more canon then they are? Well, the 50x boost comes from the manga itself. Super Saiyan had to have made Goku at LEAST that strong against Freeza, more than double his Kaio-Ken x20 which was countered by half-power Freeza. That's where the guidebooks got the x50 figure from, and like I mentioned, nothing in the manga indicates that Super Saiyan itself ever became stronger or weaker. Just that it wasn't enough at certain points, and the heroes found themselves needing something better.
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XxSkelterXx “Dubito ergo cogito; cogito ergo sum. Permanently Plugged In total posts: 13265 since: Aug 2010	May 03, 11 at 10:27pm ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	Gohan and Goku were lot greater than Piccolo at the Cell games while they were mssj. While on base, i doubt they stronger than Piccolo.
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Divine Saiya-jin starting to like it total posts: 69 since: Apr 2011	May 03, 11 at 10:33pm ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	quote Victorious Goku and for certain Gohan were greater than Piccolo in the Cell games. Gohan is weaker in the Buu arc than he is in the Cell games, so his base should also be weaker. And yet still base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo in the Buu saga....it's not known whether Piccolo got stronger or just stayed the same in the 7 years between Cell and Buu, but for sure he's still weaker than base Gohan. If this is true it would possibly signify that the saiyajins could still receive zenkais while training, or just flat out get more out of their training than Piccolo. Reason I say this is because Piccolo was already stronger than their base and their SSJ form when he merged with Kami during android arc. Then he also spends just about the same time in the RoSaT as they do. So if you believe the multiplier of 50X is constant or is stronger, then Piccolo already had a 50X jump on their base or more before the Saiyajins went into the RoSaT. Making it extremely difficult for the base saiyajins to catch up in power to Piccolo. Does that make sense? quote Kaboom Well, the 50x boost comes from the manga itself. Super Saiyan had to have made Goku at LEAST that strong against Freeza, more than double his Kaio-Ken x20 which was countered by half-power Freeza. That's where the guidebooks got the x50 figure from, and like I mentioned, nothing in the manga indicates that Super Saiyan itself ever became stronger or weaker. Just that it wasn't enough at certain points, and the heroes found themselves needing something better. I get indication that USSJ and MSSJ raise the multiplier of 50X. I don't see that being the same as the original boost he got on namek at all. This message was merged with other messages by Old Man Zangetsu (moderator)
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Infamous_666 Still Seekin' total posts: 3924 since: May 2007	May 03, 11 at 10:38pm ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	Divine Saiyan, what do you think about base getting stronger along with their SSJ during the MSSJ training, keeping the multiplier 50x? -------------------
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Divine Saiya-jin starting to like it total posts: 69 since: Apr 2011	May 03, 11 at 10:45pm ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	quote Infamous_666 Divine Saiyan, what do you think about base getting stronger along with their SSJ during the MSSJ training, keeping the multiplier 50x? It's possible and is basically what I see or more. After all they did make the SSJ form feel as though it was their base. Thus allowing them to raise all their innate chi and multiply it from a supressed SSJ form. Which is why I think MSSJ is a bigger multiplier, unless SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan weren't supressed when they came out of the RoSaT.
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Kaboom s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1679 since: Mar 2011	May 04, 11 at 12:51am ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	Full-Power Super Saiyan is never described as anything more than regular Super Saiyan with absolute control and no wasted energy. It gets the "full-power" name from that lack of waste, since none of the Super Saiyan's Ki is being squandered and all of it can now be used in battle. Goku said it himself in the manga that forcing more power than necessary was a waste and a bad idea, and that it was best to simply stick with regular Super Saiyan. Then all he and Gohan did in the Room of Spirit and Time was 1) master Super Saiyan, and then 2) train. That's it. However, he ended up even stronger than Vegeta and his "Grade 2" by a very wide margin. So how? Here's my pet theory: Training as a Super Saiyan allows for much greater power gains than training in just base. However, under normal circumstances the stress and energy waste of the form works against you, restricting the amount of training you can do and thus limiting the gains you can make. However, once you've achieved Full-Power Super Saiyan and thus eliminated those drawbacks, you can now train to your heart's content as a Super Saiyan just as if you were in base. Thus you gain power very rapidly in a short amount of time, and eventually become even stronger in regular ol' Super Saiyan than someone who's using something higher. So it'd be something like this. Vegeta - 10 Super Saiyan (x50) - 500 Super Saiyan Grade 2 (x75) - 750 Goku - 30 FP Super Saiyan (x50) - 1500 It's not that FPSSj grants a higher boost, it's just that Goku has become so much stronger overall that he's now Vegeta's far superior even with the lesser boost. Edit: May 04, 11
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Victorious Hooked on Neo total posts: 4198 since: Jan 2011	May 04, 11 at 1:02am ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	SSJ Goku at 50% blew 100% USSJ Vegeta out of the water. But anyways, I get what you mean. I too agree that MSSJ is just a regular SSJ, not 2nd grade or 3rd grade like USSJ and USSJ 2 are. I do it something like you Goku base : 100 50% SSJ : 2,500 100% SSJ : 5,000 Vegeta base : 20 SSJ : 1,000 USSJ : 1,250 ------------------- Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list
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Divine Saiya-jin starting to like it total posts: 69 since: Apr 2011	May 04, 11 at 6:26am ^ re: SSJ Multiplier
	My question is though wasn't Goku supressed in his SSJ self before he raised his pl above everyone elses?
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