Disscus.

We alreasy pointed this out in the Bojack VS. Cell Jr. topic, but they are as strong as Cell was when he spat them out most likely, which would be somewhat supressed, as later on he powered up to full power against SSJ2 Gohan...

Stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta, but weaker than Powered-up Cell against Goku.

No telling, really--but that's what I see.

How can they be weaker than Cell when he powered up against Goku when Cell never powered down from that point on?

They had to have been as strong as when Cell powered up against Goku as that was the last time he powered up before spawning them...

We don't know if they retain Cell's powers. Based on what we see in quick reproducing, the child usually comes out weaker than the parent upon creation. Young Daimao shows this with Drum, so there's not much to indicate they'll fully retain the current power of their creator just because.

Cell told them to play around, but to go ahead for the kill if they wanted. The Cell Jrs seemed to be on-par with Vegeta & Trunks, with Piccolo even puttin out a good fight, while stomping everyone else. If they were as strong as that Cell, they would've been curbstomped instead of holding their own against them.

They would have been curbstomped by the same level of power Cell had before powering up against Goku as well.... Severely supressed PC, the one that took care of USSJ Vegeta, would easily defeat Trunks, Vegeta and Piccolo as well, so that doesn't necessarily mean the Cell Jr.s were that weak either.

Either way you look at it, the Cell Jr.s were playing around, hence not serious, so that would explain how those three could manage to do anything against non serious Cell Jr.s....

Also, Cell's spawning of Cell Jr.s is different than having a naturally born and bred offspring by natural means... As a biomechanical android, Cell could control how much power he put into them, he created them with his own programming.... He had absolute control over how much power they had.... I don't see why he wouldn't... Cell =/= a creature of pure nature, so the rules of nature do not apply to him I wouldn't think...

Cell stated they had all of his powers, which may or may not mean his level of power itself... That statement is rather vague, and may just suggest that they have all the TECHNIQUES, not all his power...

So you could be right....... But then again so could I..... There is nothing to indicate they would be weaker either. The fact they were toying with the Z Senshi means that at either level of strength, those three would get a few good shots in... But if they did get serious, either level of power they had could have curbstomped all of them....

quote Mishimi

They would have been curbstomped by the same level of power Cell had before powering up against Goku as well.... Severely supressed PC, the one that took care of USSJ Vegeta, would easily defeat Trunks, Vegeta and Piccolo as well, so that doesn't necessarily mean the Cell Jr.s were that weak either.

Nah, I doubt they were that weak. Vegeta knew he had to bring it once he got wiped down by Cell and sensing 50% of Goku's power. He didn't understand why Goku wanted to fight first, and neither did Trunks--even questioning it to an extent. If they were still barely any better than they were against Initial Complete Cell, I'd see no reason for the surprise. It would've been clear enough that they couldn't start off the Cell Games because they were too weak.

Vegeta did pretty good against the Cell Jr in Super Saiyan only, so I'd say they improved vastly.

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Either way you look at it, the Cell Jr.s were playing around, hence not serious, so that would explain how those three could manage to do anything against non serious Cell Jr.s....

Yeah, they weren't going all-out, but the fact that they didn't put those 3 down while easily maiming the others shows they weren't worlds above them. Otherwise they would've all been dropped the same. The Cell Jr also looked a bit pissed when Vegeta punched him, which is countered by a bitchslap--but the fight still looked close, with Vegeta being weaker to an extent.

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Also, Cell's spawning of Cell Jr.s is different than having a naturally born and bred offspring by natural means... As a biomechanical android, Cell could control how much power he put into them, he created them with his own programming.... He had absolute control over how much power they had.... I don't see why he wouldn't... Cell =/= a creature of pure nature, so the rules of nature do not apply to him I wouldn't think...

Same with Daimao. He created Cymbal on the spot to be nothin more than a dragon ball collector; created Piano to be an annoying servant of some sort; created Tambourine to specifically kill the best martial artist's on earth, which is why Tambourine is several times stronger than Cymbal; and created Drum to finish Tien, and he had greater power than Tambourine. All of those were due to pure control of what Daimao wanted to spawn, so.

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Cell stated they had all of his powers, which may or may not mean his level of power itself... That statement is rather vague, and may just suggest that they have all the TECHNIQUES, not all his power...

He does? I only recall him stating: "They may be small, but they're my children", which is even worse, since there's no telling what it means, other than them being strong & small.

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So you could be right....... But then again so could I..... There is nothing to indicate they would be weaker either. The fact they were toying with the Z Senshi means that at either level of strength, those three would get a few good shots in... But if they did get serious, either level of power they had could have curbstomped all of them....

Yeah, this argument can sway in either direction.

I don't know, the whole issues with Vegeta and Trunks is rather confusing by some peoples logic.... I have heard people suggest that they never even used USSJ in the Cell Games, as it was proven to be more of a disadvantage than an advantage, and if they progressed any further, they would have really screwed up, like Trunks did when he went USSJ2.... So the logic being that Vegeta and Trunks were normal SSJ in the Cell games, as they didn't use USSJ and obviously didn't become MSSJ.... At least, it was never stated or suggested that they went MSSJ in those ten days before the Cell Games... Not only that but you must surpass USSJ and USSJ2 in order to go MSSJ it seems, judging by how much stronger Goku was at 50% MSSJ compared to Trunks' USSJ2....

But for them to be normal SSJ makes no sense either, because of what you said; they would have done no good if they werent stronger... For them to be weaker, they would have been completely useless.... IMO, Vegeta and Trunks probably were in USSJ state, I don't recall how bulky they were, but I can't see them being below USSJ and still be worth anything.... At the same time I can't see them being MSSJ, and they were obviously not USSJ2... So what they hell were they? I don't see how they could have gotten any stronger without surpassing USSJ and USSJ2 to become MSSJ's, but I don't think they were MSSJ, only Gohan and Goku were....

So it is confusing to say the least....



And about Daimao, he was a natural being, not a man made being like Cell, so there is still a difference there IMO....

... Eh. Going by G_O_G_E_T_A's BP chart of awhile ago, and comparing Vegeta and Trunks' BP and their performance agaisnt them... I'd say the Cell Juniors were a good 3 billion BP, a good half of Cell's. I'd also estimate Trunks and Vegeta as 2.25 billion after the second session in the RoSaT, or during the Cell games vs. the Cell Juniors at least.

You sure do mention GOGETAS lists a lot adam... LOL

You must agree with his lists a lot...

i see a lot of good theories here that i never considered.

as for Vegeta and Trunks against the Cell Jrs. I recall that at least in the anime, Trunks commented that when Vegeta was going to fight Semi-Perfect Cell and Vegeta turned SSJ while flying, Trunks commented about how much stronger he had gotten. This was Vegeta's SSJ state before he transformed into USSJ. So Vegeta could have been using his SSJ form against the Cell Jrs. and it could have surpassed his USSJ form.

I think the reason why Trunks and Vegeta didnt reach MSSJ during their 2nd stay in the ROSAT was likely explained when Goku commented that the room was not good for training after you had been in there for one year because he came to a point where it was no longer training but was torture.

As for the Cell Jrs power, i thought the two really interesting theories were Mishimi's which said that the Cell Jrs. were as strong as Cell was when he spawned them (surpressed Cell). But the theory that I find more likely is that the Cell Jrs. were sort of like Cell's version of Piccolo Daimao's offspring, meaning Cell could control the power he gave them.

Above every Z-Senshi, including the Super Saiyans, as I too believe they were as strong as Cell was when he created them. Unless I am mixing canon and non canon dialogues up, I think Cell leven iterally stated they inherited his power, which could refer to their PL's being equal to his...

Though, as I've also theorized in the recent Bojack-Cell Jr thread, I do also consider the possibility that the Cell Jr's may also have inherited Cell's full power. But this seems somewhat unlikely as they didn't power up against Gohan, and judged from the responses of the Z-Senshi to Cell's full perfect form strength, the Cell Jr's never hit a level of strength similar to that, as their powers didn't freak the Z-Senshi out at all, but Cell's did. So it remains theoratical really...

As stated, all we know for sure is: SSJ2 Gohan > Cell Jr's > Super Saiyans.

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I don't know, the whole issues with Vegeta and Trunks is rather confusing by some peoples logic.... I have heard people suggest that they never even used USSJ in the Cell Games, as it was proven to be more of a disadvantage than an advantage, and if they progressed any further, they would have really screwed up, like Trunks did when he went USSJ2.... So the logic being that Vegeta and Trunks were normal SSJ in the Cell games, as they didn't use USSJ and obviously didn't become MSSJ.... At least, it was never stated or suggested that they went MSSJ in those ten days before the Cell Games... Not only that but you must surpass USSJ and USSJ2 in order to go MSSJ it seems, judging by how much stronger Goku was at 50% MSSJ compared to Trunks' USSJ2....

Regarding the form Vegeta and Trunks used at the Cell Games, maybe I have the answer to that. They did have Super Saiyan aura's, but on the other hand, they had enhanced muscle masses both, more so than Goku and Gohan, so I think they reached a level in between USSJ and MSSJ. I think they were in the process of converting their USSJ forms into MSSJ, though failed to attain MSSJ completely as their appearances would suggest (SSJ styled aura, though enhanced muscle mass still). Maybe you think that's farfetched, but that's fine, it's just what I think...

This message was edited by G_O_G_E_T_A on Nov 11 2009.

I remember Cell stating that each Cell Jr. was equal to him in power, so I would put them at being stronger then all the Z-fighters excluding MSSJ Goku, SSJ2 Gohan & USSJ Trunks, SSJ2 Gohan would obviously be stronger then the JR's, And Goku + Trunks would be on par with them.

quote Infamous_666

as for Vegeta and Trunks against the Cell Jrs. I recall that at least in the anime, Trunks commented that when Vegeta was going to fight Semi-Perfect Cell and Vegeta turned SSJ while flying, Trunks commented about how much stronger he had gotten. This was Vegeta's SSJ state before he transformed into USSJ. So Vegeta could have been using his SSJ form against the Cell Jrs. and it could have surpassed his USSJ form.

I find that doubtful.... USSJ exists for a reason, and that reason was to give them more power in SSJ state, it is the jump in between SSJ and MSSJ.... I do not think normal SSJ could surpass USSJ because USSJ is logically the next step to becoming a stronger SSJ before reaching MSSJ....

If normal SSJ could surpass USSJ, I find it confusing why USSJ existed to begin with....

Goku reached USSJ in the rosat and said it wasn't good enough... He pushed harder and went further with his training, surpassed USSJ/USSJ2 and became a MSSJ... Only with MSSJ he had no need to worry about muscle bulk or speed issues....

That tells me that in order for a normal SSJ to surpass normal SSJ limits, they must go USSJ, then surpass USSJ to become a MSSJ... At least, in the beginning they do anyway..... Years later, their base forms increase in strength and seemingly surpass normal SSJ levels at the time they first reached SSJ, so logically normal SSJ would surpass USSJ and even MSSJ as time passed... But of course, once they reach and attain MSSJ, they always use it, no need to use normal SSJ when you can be a MSSJ....

Speaking of Vegeta and Trunks specifically in the Cell Games, I am not so sure they got that far.... Didn't have enough time even in the rosat to cause normal SSJ to surpass USSJ when they never even reached MSSJ yet.....

But, who knows for sure.... stranger things in DB have happened, so you may be right Infamous, maybe they did find a way to make their normal SSJ forms surpass USSJ.... I just don't know....

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I remember Cell stating that each Cell Jr. was equal to him in power, so I would put them at being stronger then all the Z-fighters excluding MSSJ Goku, SSJ2 Gohan & USSJ Trunks, SSJ2 Gohan would obviously be stronger then the JR's, And Goku + Trunks would be on par with them.

Not with so many words in the manga, there he just says the Z-Senshi can't win as the Cell Jr's are his children. Nontheless, the thought of the Cell Jrs having the same PL Cell had when he released them is very accurate and correct IMO, I agree with it. I think Cell was at a level above SSJ Gohan even (he sensed Gohan's power, he's no idiot, he most likely upped his PL to at least match Gohan's, just like he did with Goku), so yeah, they were very powerful IMO. Only SSJ2 Gohan could take them down the way I see it, and he did it with authority.

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I find that doubtful.... USSJ exists for a reason, and that reason was to give them more power in SSJ state, it is the jump in between SSJ and MSSJ.... I do not think normal SSJ could surpass USSJ because USSJ is logically the next step to becoming a stronger SSJ before reaching MSSJ....

I'm not so sure. I always assumed that MSSJ is USSJ2 power (and beyond) with the ideal balance between power and speed that the regular Super Saiyan state provides, but then, explain Gohan. When Goku attained USSJ2, he immdiately noticed its flaws, explained it to Gohan, and both set out to make the SSJ form their norm. That's the direction they took with their training after Goku made that discovery. Nothing even remotely hints at Gohan having also attained USSJ(2) somewhere down the line, so the idea of USSJ being a necessity to attain mastery over the regular SSJ form is much less convincing to me now...

Instead, I just think that by getting used to being a Super Saiyan for extended periods of time, they could gain power faster, and aside from that, due to having a very low ki consumption, that allowed them surpass USSJ2 Trunks' power, even at 50% of their maximum. Now the question is, would not having to waste ki by transforming and having very little ki consumption during combat make that much of a difference? Well, that depends on your levels I guess, how strong you have the Super Saiyans by then. And in my case, I have Goku at five billion and Gohan at six, so in that case, it makes a world of difference...

All in all, the idea of MSSJ having USSJ2 power and ideal SSJ power/speed balance makes sense, but the problem is Gohan, you can't explain him being even stronger than Goku, considering there is no reason whatsoever, and I do mean none, to believe Gohan had reached USSJ(2). After Goku discovered its flaw, he ditched it on the spot and completely turned the training into a different direction pretty much.

This message was edited by G_O_G_E_T_A on Nov 14 2009.