Clones

Everyone claims to want them gone.
Sakurai said there were none in Brawl.
I agree with him.

What's the deal here?

I personally don't believe characters are clones just because their moves use the same visuals. I think there is an amount of laziness in not making the animations different (when it would be simple, and cause an extreme reaction in the players, making the moves seem very different).
Two characters that use the same move, except the moves had different startup speeds, strength, distance, priority.... they become different moves.



But.... what's YOUR side of the story?

Ganondorf and Toon Link disagree with you.

Ganondorf is a clone of Captain Falcon except slower and the knee is removed. Toon Link is exactly like normal link except faster and he doesn't use kicks.

These guys are the definition of clone, they use the exact same moves and animations except one is slower and the other is faster than their original counterparts.

So airgo, there are clones in brawl and they should be changed. The semi-clones (Luigi, Falco, Wolf) should be made more original.

Accepting that their are no clones in brawl is accepting unoriginal characters. Why should we look the other way and say that their fine when they clearly aren't? Shouldn't Sakurai strive to make these characters as original as possible for an overall better experience?

Maybe it isn't laziness. Maybe it could have had something to do with budget or time constraints.

I suppose my statement is... how are characters clones, if the moves that they use (while similar in aesthetic) function completely differently?

The move set for Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, yes, very similar. Regardless of the word 'clone,' my argument is more or less asking... how is this true? Or rather, if the moves APPEARED (visually) different, would they not then be different moves? Ganondorf's moves are all slower and with greater power, in addition to all of the specific play mechanics that change it even more (hit box, yada yada). If he used the same 'move' as CF, only one looked like a flaming punch and one looked like a giant sword swinging and hitting you, other than visually, would they not be different moves, even if they played exactly the way the characters do now?

I think the answer is, yes, yes they would.

Technically no, there were no clones. But were many of the characters VERY similar to their counterparts? You're damn right they are!

I think there should be more originality in movesets and how characters play and such this time around.

quote Ded Valve

The definition of clone =/= the fightingdefinition of clone.

In Super Smash Bros. (or any fighting game) clones are fighters that have the exact same moveset with minor alterations to them.

Semi-clones are fighters with half or less moves that are alike but also have many original moves. Wolf for example has an entirely different normal moveset and grab, but his specials are the same as Fox and Falco's only with very different alterations done.

Luigi has several moves exclusive to him, 1 original special and 1 special that was dropped by Mario thus making it his. Hence Luigi and Wolf are semi-clones, Ganondorf and Toon link are full blown clones.


Accepting that these characters are not clones is accepting a major fault in Smash bros. which is originality in the fighters. By that logic, every character should have mario's moveset. As long as the moves look different or have different functions/stats they aren't clones right? At least that way the next Smash bros can have 100 characters.

I don't care much for the semi-clones, priority should be given on the full clones first, THEN the semi-clones. At least Brawl had a very small amount of clones/semi-clones compared to melee.

Saying Dr. Mario or Pichu are not clones because their attacks have different properties despite being the exact same (Dr. Mario is nothing more than a skin of the real mario with different stats) is ridiculous. They are clones by definition (fighting standard definition).

I suppose then that I just... disagree. Of course, you don't want to go back to the days when a color palette swap was the only differention between two characters (plus one or two special moves), of course not!

However, I think the people that argue the death of 'clones' (proven in this thread, as a small sample study) get so overwhelmed by the mood and their own intentions that they miss part of the point.

Per your example above, if all characters had Marios moveset, but they 'look different and have different stats,' how is that not an entirely different moveset?

Ellen Degeneres is a lot like Oprah, ya know, except the weigh, skin color, hair, curved humor, more overt lesbian tendencies and history as an actor. Otherwise though, they're the same.
...but how helpful is that? It's all same except the key elements that are changed?

Surely more variation in certain characters, yes, and FS are definitely where this should be true. But calling Luigi even a partial Mario clone at this point, when they have one move in common and they even function fully differently, is a bit over the top.

quote Ded Valve

Luigi has several moves in common with mario. He originally started out exactly like mario then slowly got new moves or moves mario no longer used (Dspecail and Dair)


As for my

quote NapoleonDos

Per your example above, if all characters had Marios moveset, but they 'look different and have different stats,' how is that not an entirely different moveset?

If bowser dropped fireballs, used the same up special, used a cape, all with the exact same animations except all of his moves add more percent than mario's he's not a clone because of the damage difference?

I suppose we have vastly different opinions on what clones are then.

But to say that their are no clones in brawl is settling for less.

I don't think our definitions are that different, but rather, that IF up there seems rather massive

I don't even remember Lucas move-set much. He has the bat as a move and the one recovery move like Ness and the PK Fire. But that's all I remember of his. I just know their Final Smashes were the same for the most part. Semi-Clone maybe?