 Topic: HHM Tier List Discussion
|
|
|
 Baksmad messenger  total posts: 289 since: Nov 2007 |
 May 27, 08 at 01:29AM |
quote Insanity Prevails
quote Baks
Why promote Lyn second? You can always use the first Heaven seal on her and promote Eliwood later in HHM. Because Eliwood >>>>>> Lyn. Promoting Eliwood first benefits the army more. More move + lances >>>> bows.
If Lyn promotes first then the army is doing worse than if Eliwood had promoted, which would still be a strike against Lyn.
quote Baks
Also are we not doing LHM mode as well as HHM to make HHM easier? If we don't do this, then a lot of characters from her mode are underlevelled when you start HHM. Of course we are, but a unit's performance is LHM doesn't matter. Otherwise it wouldn't be a HHM tier list, it would be a LHM+HHM tier list.
LHM play only matters when determining starting levels of LHM units when they rejoin. Yeah, Lyn won't be Lv1, but Guy's not going to be Lv3 when Lyn joins, so moot point. Guy can easily at least catch up to Lyn's level by the time her chapter comes around. I disagaree about Eliwood being better than Lyn, imo he is the worst lord in the game. He doesn't have Hector's defense and offense or Lyn's speed and high critical and dodge rates. So whats special about Eliwood stats, eh? Also, there are much better mounted units than him when he finally promotes like Sain and Kent for example. Plus Eliwood is really weak to magic users and fliers unlike Lyn who can usually avoid most of them and kill them thanks to her using both swords and bows. Also about Guy, I seriously doubt he will catch upto Lyn's level when she rejoins in A Noble Lady of Caelin unless he does a majority of the kills before that chapter. I assume that Lyn will be around level 8-10 if you went through LHM first, thats a probable three or four level lead on Guy when she rejoins. |
 quote quick quote  edit quick edit  del  report
|
|
Members, log in or register to remove these ads.
|
|
Insanity Prevails
|
 May 27, 08 at 02:48AM |
quote Baks
I disagaree about Eliwood being better than Lyn, imo he is the worst lord in the game. He doesn't have Hector's defense and offense or Lyn's speed and high critical and dodge rates.
Lyn doesn't have amazingly high critical either, and supported Eliwood actually wins avoid, so I dunno what you're getting at there.
Anyway, quick comparison:| code |
HP Str Skl Spd Def Res Lck Con
Eliwood (10/0) 25.2 9.1 9.5 10.6 7.7 3.1 11.1 7
Lyn (10/0) 22.3 7.6 12.4 14.4 3.8 2.7 10.0 5
|
Yeah, Eliwood is already beating Lyn as it is. She has, like, 4 speed. Skill is pointless since they both use swords. Eliwood quite happily wins everything else.
And then we have supports.
Lyn's support list is rather crap. The one thing she needs - evade - is one thing she only gets half bonuses in. Eliwood gets full evade from his supports and obviously starts building them sooner. OK, let's compare freshly promoted:| code |
HP Str Skl Spd Def Res Lck Con
Eliwood (20/1) 37.2 15.5 14.5 15.6 11.7 9.6 15.6 9
Lyn (20/1) 32.3 13.6 20.1 19.3 8.8 10.7 15.4 6
|
Lyn has 4 speed, 1 res and more useless skill. Luck is too close to call a win.
Eliwood wins HP, Str and Def. Then Eliwood has lances and more movement. Lyn has lolbows.
Avoid, yer say? Lyn has 8 more avoid off stats alone, but Eliwood is getting twice as much avoid from his supports than Lyn. At a full support setup for both, Eliwood actually wins avoid by 5! Lances also helps Eliwood manipulate the weapon triangle to his advantage, so he can easily be adding another 15 at times.
Yeah, not even close.
quote Baks
So whats special about Eliwood stats, eh? Also, there are much better mounted units than him when he finally promotes like Sain and Kent for example.
There are better unmounted units than Lyn. What's your point?
quote Baks
Plus Eliwood is really weak to magic users and fliers unlike Lyn who can usually avoid most of them and kill them thanks to her using both swords and bows.
Eliwood with supports is actually winning in avoid and has 5 more HP to offset the 1 less res, so I dunno what you're talking about here. Lyn's actually the weaker one here.
Bows? Oh great, Lyn gets to kill one flier and then stand around like a dummy while everyone gets free hits on her. Somehow, I don't think that is going to be all that beneficial.
quote Baks
Also about Guy, I seriously doubt he will catch upto Lyn's level when she rejoins in A Noble Lady of Caelin unless he does a majority of the kills before that chapter.
What the..? 
Seriously. Guy has part of 13, 13x, 14 and 15. HHM may induce an exp cut but it also shoves in more enemy units.
Even if Guy does end up a level or two behind her... so what? He still destroys her anyway.| code |
HP Str Skl Spd Def Res Lck Con
Lyn (9/0) 21.6 7.2 11.8 13.8 3.6 2.4 9.4 5
Guy (6/0) 23.2 6.9 12.5 13.1 5.5 0.8 6.4 5
|
Haha, three levels ahead and it's like physical endurance vs magical endurance. I haven't even bothered to add on Guy's HHM boosts yet. Guy can be three levels behind and he's still winning.
-------------------
|
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
Baksmad messenger total posts: 289 since: Nov 2007 |
May 27, 08 at 03:14AM |
Lyn can have a high crit rate if use the Manni Katti with her and later on you give her Brave Swords and Killing Edges.
I think she has maybe possibly the second highest crit rate in the game behind Guy given the right weapons.
Also how can you her support list bad? She can have possible A supports with Hector, Florina, Kent who are all pretty good units imo.
My point about promoted Eliwood is that why bother using him at all when you can use other mounted units like Florina, Kent and Sain who blow him outta the water when they get promoted. |
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
|
Insanity Prevails
|
May 27, 08 at 03:41AM |
quote Baks
Lyn can have a high crit rate if use the Manni Katti with her and later on you give her Brave Swords and Killing Edges.
I think she has maybe possibly the second highest crit rate in the game behind Guy given the right weapons.
I can give any sword user the brave sword or a killing edge. They are not locked to Lyn. In fact, any melee fighter can get brave or killer weapons.
Manni Katti might be locked to Lyn, but it also breaks and can't be replaced, so while an advantage it is hardly an overwhelming one and a terrible basis to be declaring Lyn as a critting machine.
Does Lyn have better crit than Eliwood? Yeah, wih full crit supports, but Eliwood is busy winning with almost everything else. If crit were that godly as to override anything else then Karel, Dart and Hawkeye would be sitting much higher than they currently are.
quote Baks
Also how can you her support list bad? She can have possible A supports with Hector, Florina, Kent who are all pretty good units imo.
It's because her affinity is terrible. There's no doubt that some of the units she supports with are good, but who wants her out of the good selection?
Hector wants avoid to help against magic users. Lyn only gives him half avoid. Eliwood, Oswin and Serra all give him full avoid. Even Matthew would be more preferable as the supports finishes faster and starts building earlier.
Florina is a terrible partner for Lyn as she doesn't get any avoid at all. Eliwood's avoid lead goes even higher now. That hardly helps your cause. Not to mention that hanging around Lyn all the time kinda negates the advantage of flying.
Kent's problem is the same as Hector - half avoid boosts. Well, at least Kent doesn't have as good a support list as Hector, so she could get a support there (although only a B if Sain is in play).
quote Baks
My point about promoted Eliwood is that why bother using him at all when you can use other mounted units like Florina, Kent and Sain who blow him outta the water when they get promoted.
There are various unmounted units that blow Lyn out of the water. Guess I shouldn't bother using her at all, in that case.
Lyn, in fact, performs worse, so I have less reason to bother using her than using Eliwood.
I suppose there is possible debate about Kent and Sain, but Florina's worse than Eliwood. She flies when she's not glued to Lyn but she's also pretty frail. Lower defences + lower HP + a crap support list = lol. Her speed advantages isn't there because what she gains in raw speed she loses in weapon weight penalties due to her low con. Well, unless you want her to only use slim lances. XD
This message was edited by Insanity Prevails on May 27 2008.
-------------------
|
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
FireEmblemFanaticMy hair is assaulting yous-e-e-k-e-r  total posts: 1731 since: Apr 2007
|
May 28, 08 at 08:22PM |
Plus, there is the problem with OHKO from bows. Fili Shield isn't until 29 (or around there). 15 chapters of avoiding an entire class = bad.
-------------------
Thanks to Crystal Creation for the banner!
|
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
Baksmad messenger total posts: 289 since: Nov 2007 |
May 29, 08 at 01:55AM |
Thats only early game, later on and especially after she gets promoted Florina defintely has more than enough speed and HP to double most opponents.
Not to mention you can promote her a heck of a lot earlier than Eliwood and her promotion cost is cheaper.
Plus she is very useful for utility, you can use her to rescue any of your attackers that are critically injured and bringing back to your healers, visting the villages to get items, protecting and rescuing Matt on the levels where ya wanna steal stuff.
So Florina > Eliwood imo in terms of overall usefullness. XP
Another major weakness about Eliwood is that he needs a little bit of babying early game in HHM where must units can kill him and Rebecca pretty easily.
About Lyn she can have around 40 crit attack with just Iron swords if you level her to S rank with that weapon. Compare that to Eliwood's crit stats of around the mid twenties using Iron swords and having S weapon rank. XP
Not to mention she will doubling and possibly critting most unpromoted enemies within one turn. Lyn also gets some decent strength boosts after promotion meaning she is quite a fast and deadly critting machine like Guy is. |
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
FireEmblemFanaticMy hair is assaulting yous-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1731 since: Apr 2007
|
May 29, 08 at 11:08AM |
quote Baks
About Lyn she can have around 40 crit attack with just Iron swords if you level her to S rank with that weapon. Compare that to Eliwood's crit stats of around the mid twenties using Iron swords and having S weapon rank. XP Criticals ain't everything. Miss this? quote Insanity Prevails
Does Lyn have better crit than Eliwood? Yeah, wih full crit supports, but Eliwood is busy winning with almost everything else. If crit were that godly as to override anything else then Karel, Dart and Hawkeye would be sitting much higher than they currently are. Her HP, STR, DEF, and RES are all lower than Eliwood. Her durability is worse than Eliwood's. And criticals don't matter if she a) isn't alive b) doesn't do any damage (or wastes one of her Mani Katti's uses for 1 or 2x3 damage. quote Baks
Another major weakness about Eliwood is that he needs a little bit of babying early game in HHM where must units can kill him and Rebecca pretty easily. Again, Lyn also can get raeped by many units.
-------------------
Thanks to Crystal Creation for the banner!
|
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
HeavenFireSwordforum native   total posts: 153 since: Dec 2007 |
 Jun 11, 08 at 08:24PM |
So its been like 2 weeks without any objection or reply, so can we say this is an accepttable Tier List? I mean, this has got to have an end, and everyone seems satisfied...
-------------------
|
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
StrawberryclockDAS TROLLPARADIESforum raider   total posts: 2730 since: May 2006
|
Jun 21, 08 at 11:19PM |
It hasn't been replied because dead forum is dead.
-------------------
|
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
ThatTallGuyforum regular  total posts: 56 since: May 2008 |
Jul 29, 08 at 06:07AM |
Dart is actually really, really good. Take time to train him and he's good, or better than Raven
|
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
 The DeathwindI got a faceli- OH DEAR GOD.Seeketh Maximus   total posts: 6026 since: Jun 2006
|
 Jul 29, 08 at 09:26AM |
quote ThatTallGuy
Dart is actually really, really good. Take time to train him and he's good, or better than Raven
Except using Dart rapes the hell out of your Funds rank.
Considering this is a ranked HHM tier list, Dart sucks.
-------------------
If you make something idiot-proof, someone will just make a better idiot.
|
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
ThatTallGuyforum regular total posts: 56 since: May 2008 |
Jul 31, 08 at 06:28PM |
Just arena abuse him(or does that rape the hell out of the fund rank also?) then find the ocean seal in Living Legend.
|
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
Assassins GuildI put on for my citytrue seeker    total posts: 1122 since: Jun 2008
|
 Jul 31, 08 at 10:31PM |
Using the Ocean Seal is what hurts the fund rank.
-------------------
You and me, together we'll be, forever you'll see...
Credit given to InuYashaFan123
|
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
HeavenFireSwordforum native total posts: 153 since: Dec 2007 |
Jul 31, 08 at 11:18PM |
And arena abusing doesn't make your chars better. Example: I COULD arena abuse with my Lyn, but that won't make her better than Raven, cause you can also arena abuse with Raven. Arena abuse ain't exclusive to Dart.
-------------------
|
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
The DeathwindI got a faceli- OH DEAR GOD.Seeketh Maximus total posts: 6026 since: Jun 2006
|
Aug 01, 08 at 12:21AM |
quote ThatTallGuy
Just arena abuse him(or does that rape the hell out of the fund rank also?) then find the ocean seal in Living Legend.
Arena Abuse rapes the hell out of your Tactics rank, and using the Ocean Seal is equivalent to spending 50,000G.
Yes, that's right.
-------------------
If you make something idiot-proof, someone will just make a better idiot.
|
|
quote quick quote edit quick edit del report
|
| [All dates in (PT) time] | Threads List « Next Newest Next Oldest » |
REPLY TO THIS THREAD 
START NEW THREAD
Print
subscribe
remove