The eternal debate. - Page 9

quote Hinagiku

So everything is ok and doesn't matter as long as you get away with it? Ok, I get it now :sarcasm off:

Not only this but there are other areas I could quote as well. Judging from your opinions if I cheat in a game, I will cheat in real life cause that is who I am, I can't change who I am. I'll act the same. Under that token, I enjoy first person shooters and brutality (to an extent) in my games. According to your statements, taking with how they come off, I will brutally murder people in life for nothing else than the pleasure of it.

As I said a few times, this is just how your wording is coming off, I'm not sure if it is intentional or not.

---- Back on topic

I've been not really responding to this topic as I have mixed feelings on cheating. Am I fine with cheating in a game? Yes and no. I hate it in a competitive space, and what people need to realise is that there are people who see games like WKC as a competition. They may not notice how they feel but they do, and that is why it bugs them when people are even helped by a modder.

I'll cheat at a game. Only if it is within the games parameters. An example is. I can party with a friend and do Quibbles with Kibbles for xp, loot, donation items. Is this cheating or glitching if I'm just using a knight and slaughtering? Not in the least. Now if I make said friend a low level character. Let's say level 4. I go from making 200-300xp to making 972xp.

It's a glitch, an exploit in the system. Another would be the Credit duping tricks in Dead Space. They aren't actually cheats, modding or scripting. It's exploiting, can people see it as the same thing? Sure they can, but in truth you are only using the game to it's fullest parameters. It wasn't your fault the developers didn't think it through.

Another example would be on a first person shooter, Battlefield 3 is my best recent example. A gun is 'overpowered' according to the player base. Is it really? No, it actually is operating quite like it would in real life and Battlefield claims to be a semi-simulator, so this makes sense. But because the player base hates the gun, whines about it and calls people out for using it the gun is nerfed. Guess what happens next? People realise that the gun wasn't so bad after all, cause there was another one waiting to take it's place. Low and behold, the cycle of stupidity repeats and the devs never grow a sack and just state that it's working as intended.

To both of you, I have never said what anyone will do with their own "real life" choices. Those are your own choices to make.

The only point made is that there is no line drawn because you are the same person inside 24/7. Choices you make reflect on who you are. I never said what choices you would make. Come on. I think some folks are carrying things too far.

All of this because a group of friends choose to play a game without cheating or not in the presence of cheaters. And because a person chooses that FOR THEMSELVES dishonesty is wrong. Wow.

to guest: "To be clear...I never said anything the morality of cheating...I'm just arguing that a person cheating in a video game does not mean they are a cheater in real life."

To be clear...I was discussing the morality of cheating and not the opposite. Hmmm. Interesting.

I am not sure if it is a lack of clarity, a lack of understanding or just a love of drama that can twist things so badly. I don't know how to make point any clearer.

What people do is their own business. For me, it is the morality of cheating. It doesn't mean that you will go on to other things. Maybe you will, perhaps you won't. It does speak of your character in general. If I were a teacher or boss, I would think twice about someone who cheats at video games. Maybe you wouldn't. It is your choice and I am not going to criticize you for it.

But you are who you are 24/7. You don't turn yourself on and off like a light switch - honorable one minute and dishonest the next. that may be what you portray, but it is not who you really are. (Just an example!)

Choose for yourselves what you want to do. Allow others to do the same. But please stop twisting what people say and jumping to conclusions. Not cool.

Modding games is as old as computer gaming, and it's more of a "what if" scenario than it is cheating.

quote Hinagiku

What you do, wherever you are, whatever you are doing, what choices you make - that is who you are. Doesn't matter if you are at work, at home, with your family, wife, mom, sister, kids, friends, online, chat, email, school, bar, game...it is all the same. You are the same person. The choices and decisions you make reflect who you are. If you cheat just a little here on a test cause the teacher isn't looking or you keep a bit of cash from the til cause the boss "owes" you anyway, is that wrong? It's okay to have that drink with your cute co-worker tonight cause your spouse is taking care of an ill parent this weekend. Not gonna hurt anything! So D3/L5 didn't release the rest of the DLC, it is okay to break Sony's rules. Suuuurrreee. "It is just a game." Sorry, a cheater is a cheater is a cheater. What you do wherever you are reflects your personal character.

This is what I read: "It doesn't matter where you cheat (family, wife...school, bar, game), it is all the same. The severity of cheating doesn't matter, because the act of cheating itself is dishonest. And because you chose to cheat (in the case I was saying which was cheating in video games), it makes you a dishonest/bad person."

This is how I read it. Am I wrong to read it this way then? Cause I'm not the only one that read it that way.

quote Hinagiku

The only point made is that there is no line drawn because you are the same person inside 24/7. Choices you make reflect on who you are. I never said what choices you would make. Come on. I think some folks are carrying things too far.

If you make bad choices you are a bad person. Choices you make reflect on who you are. Bad choices you make reflect that you are a bad person.

quote Kahshim

I won't delve into the statement about morality on cheating, which could be extended to other actions in games. It would be an interesting debate, but could easily come out as augmentative.
**snip**
Pointing out I didn't/don't want an argument with Hinagiku or anyone else, rather I want a discussion.
Cheating from game to life does occur depending on risk assessment.
Morale contamination explains why people may dislike someone who was assisted by a modder or why they'd leave the room.

Moral contamination...that's one way to put it. I'll put it another way. I am a parent, an elder brother, and a husband. I have a responsibility in each of those roles. As a parent I raise my child to be the best person they can possibly be. I have to instil in them a sense of morals and a conscience, I have to make every effort to ensure that my child grows up to be a well adjusted, moral, good and fair person. As an elder brother, I had to live with the fact that my younger brother did copy my actions and attitudes, so what I said and did mattered. I still set an example to some extent, even later in life. As a Husband and head of household, I set the tone for the home. I also have my responsibilities as a husband, both to my family and especially my wife. That includes not only remaining loyal and faithful to her, but also maintaining my character in such a way as to deserve the respect and loyalty she gives me as her husband. As a friend I have similar responsibilities to my friends to treat them fairly and not mis-treat them in any way.

My guild - to bring this back to games - includes friends, there are members younger than 16, including my own child, and there are brothers ans sisters, and spouses - including my own wife. As a guild leader it is implicit that I set the tone and example for the guild. I created the guild, I set the rules, and I decide on memberships. How would I be living up to my various responsibilities as a parent, husband or leader if I condone dishonesty and cheating? Not only is it morally wrong to cheat in any venue (yes I am aware that cheating in a game is minor compared to other forms of cheating), but you are also breaking the terms of service that you agreed to with the game. Should I as a leader, and parent tell the kids in my guild that it's OK to cheat as long as there is no risk of getting caught? Or that it's OK because everyone is doing it? Or that it's OK because Sony/L5/D3 don't care? How do I tell my child not to cheat and to be honest in life if I am also saying that it's OK to lie and cheat in a game?

As a leader, I have many responsibilities. As a parent, husband, friend, brother or even simply a community member, I have responsibilities. As a moral person, I have responsibilities to myself. my own character. If I cheat in a game, I know that I am doing wrong, and I know that I am cheating myself and acting against my own character if I do so.

Now, that is how I see this issue. There are lots of angles to look at it from, but if you remove all the rationalizations and circumstances, and concentrate on the simple issues of right and wrong, it really is very simple. Does that mean that someone who cheats in a game automatically becomes an immoral and bad person who cheats in life? No, of course not. But, it does show that there is potential there. If a child learns it's OK to cheat in certain circumstances, then later in life, there is the temptation to rationalize and infer circumstances that make it OK to cheat in a given situation. If a child is given a strong sense of right/wrong and sees cheating as wrong, the temptation is far, far less.

Specifically regarding cheating in WKC2 and with regard to my guild, if I were to allow cheats in the guild, or play with cheaters, or allow cheaters to play with my guild. I would be setting an example that conveys the message that it's OK to cheat, or to benefit from cheating. That is the 'contamination' as I see it. It really is like Hina says, you have a clean glass of water that is pure and good to drink. How much deadly poison is tolerable in that clean water you are drinking? Even the smallest amount of deadly poison taints the water. Even a non-lethal dose will make you sick. The issue of cheating in a game like this; where it is multi-player and there is social interaction, and therefore a community; is the same. How much cheating is tolerable? The answer is none, because even a little bit taints the community that allows it.

quote TheHighlander

It really is like Hina says, you have a clean glass of water that is pure and good to drink. How much deadly poison is tolerable in that clean water you are drinking? Even the smallest amount of deadly poison taints the water. Even a non-lethal dose will make you sick. The issue of cheating in a game like this; where it is multi-player and there is social interaction, and therefore a community; is the same. How much cheating is tolerable? The answer is none, because even a little bit taints the community that allows it.

Pretty extreme to compare death by poison to getting 255 luthia codes, a better comparison would be fast forwarding a movie to see the end. Since we are going the extreme route, I can safely say that CoD is responsible for gun violence and all shooter fans need to be kept an eye on.

quote vaskov17

quote TheHighlander

It really is like Hina says, you have a clean glass of water that is pure and good to drink. How much deadly poison is tolerable in that clean water you are drinking? Even the smallest amount of deadly poison taints the water. Even a non-lethal dose will make you sick. The issue of cheating in a game like this; where it is multi-player and there is social interaction, and therefore a community; is the same. How much cheating is tolerable? The answer is none, because even a little bit taints the community that allows it.

Pretty extreme to compare death by poison to getting 255 luthia codes, a better comparison would be fast forwarding a movie to see the end. Since we are going the extreme route, I can safely say that CoD is responsible for gun violence and all shooter fans need to be kept an eye on.

Moral relativism. Morals are black and white issues. You cannot be a little immoral and still be moral. As I said, even a non-lethal does of a poison will make you sick...it's not death vs 255 luthia codes, it's choosing a course of minor immoral behavior vs not choosing that course, the water/poison is simply an illustration. But then you are smart enough to know that, which makes me wonder why you bothered picking that out and creating the false comparison that you did.