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Lord Salamence | PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
Log in to remove this advertisement Let's cut to the chase. A friend of mine, Dragoon952, of Smogon, has developed a way of tiering, for lack of a better word. The further is copied of off of the Official Smogon Social Group, http://www.smogon.com/forums/group.php?groupid=925. Pokemon Value System This is the place to talk about a metagame that has been developed by Dragoon952. Using a mathmatical formula that factors in base stats, typing, movepool etc. he has given pokemon a numerical value. Then a total limit can be placed on a team. For example, the total value of your team cannot exceed 60. This number can be changed based on the players. The point of the metagame is to make it possible to successfully run worse pokemon. This is true because running a more powerful pokemon causes you to use more points, points that could be used somewhere. So for every time you choose a strong pokemon, you have to choose a weak pokemon. This metagame can be played on the Gamma Server of PO. Please playtest, and help find weird point values. The equation is constantly be changed and you can contact Dragoon for the mathematical information.[/div] Poison Badge | |
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Lord Salamence | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
This is the point values of pokemon listed in alphabetical order. Spoiler:List Abomasnow 11 Abra 6 Absol 11 Aerodactyl 19 Aggron 15 Alakazam 12 Altaria 14 Ambipom 11 Ampharos 7 Arbok 7 Arcanine 11 Ariados 5 Armaldo 8 Articuno 11 Azelf 14 Azumarill 8 Banette 8 Bastiodon 10 Beautifly 6 Beedrill 7 Bellossom 7 Bibarel 11 Blastoise 10 Blaziken 14 Blissey 23 Breloom 11 Bronzong 15 Butterfree 6 Cacturne 10 Camerupt 8 Carnivine 6 Castform 6 Celebi 19 Chansey 19 Charizard 12 Chatot 11 Cherrim 7 Chimecho 8 Claydol 12 Clefable 13 Cloyster 10 Corsola 7 Cradily 11 Crawdaunt 10 Cresselia 13 Crobat 17 Delcatty 7 Delibird 5 Dewgong 10 Dodrio 10 Donphan 8 Dragonite 17 Drapion 14 Drifblim 14 Dugtrio 9 Dunsparce 10 Dusknoir 8 Dustox 7 Electabuzz 9 Electivire 11 Electrode 9 Empoleon 19 Entei 13 Espeon 11 Exeggutor 10 Exploud 7 Farfetch'd 7 Fearow 11 Feraligatr 10 Flareon 9 Floatzel 12 Flygon 18 Forretress 14 Froslass 15 Furret 7 Gallade 14 Gardevoir 10 Gastrodon 11 Gengar 17 Girafarig 10 Glaceon 8 Glalie 8 Gligar 13 Gliscor 17 Golduck 11 Golem 10 Gorebyss 7 Granbull 7 Grumpig 10 Gyarados 13 Hariyama 9 Heatran 24 Heracross 10 Hippowdon 12 Hitmonchan 7 Hitmonlee 8 Hitmontop 7 Honchkrow 13 Houndoom 15 Huntail 7 Hypno 8 Illumise 10 Infernape 21 Ivysaur 6 Jirachi 26 Jolteon 12 Jumpluff 10 Jynx 13 Kabutops 15 Kangaskhan 10 Kecleon 7 Kingdra 15 Kingler 8 Kricketune 4 Lanturn 14 Lapras 13 Leafeon 9 Ledian 6 Lickilicky 9 Linoone 8 Lopunny 10 Lucario 18 Ludicolo 12 Lumineon 10 Lunatone 12 Luvdisc 6 Luxray 8 Machamp 9 Magcargo 6 Magmortar 10 Magneton 12 Magnezone 15 Mamoswine 15 Manectric 8 Mantine 10 Marowak 7 Masquerain 6 Mawile 9 Medicham 12 Meganium 8 Mesprit 12 Metagross 19 Mightyena 8 Milotic 12 Miltank 13 Minun 7 Mismagius 12 Moltres 11 Mothim 7 Mr. Mime 8 Muk 8 Nidoking 13 Nidoqueen 13 Ninetales 10 Ninjask 16 Noctowl 10 Octillery 8 Omastar 12 Pachirisu 7 Parasect 4 Pelipper 9 Persian 10 Phione 10 Pichu 3 Pidgeot 11 Pikachu 7 Pinsir 6 Plusle 7 Politoed 10 Poliwrath 14 Porygon2 8 Porygon-Z 10 Primeape 9 Probopass 12 Purugly 9 Quagsire 10 Qwilfish 13 Raichu 9 Raikou 12 Rampardos 10 Rapidash 11 Raticate 7 Regice 7 Regigigas 9 Regirock 10 Registeel 18 Relicanth 12 Rhyperior 13 Roserade 11 Rotom 11 Rotom (Fan) 12 Rotom (Frost) 13 Rotom (Heat) 12 Rotom (Mow) 12 Rotom (Wash) 12 Sableye 10 Sandslash 8 Sceptile 10 Scizor 16 Scyther 9 Seaking 8 Seviper 7 Sharpedo 16 Shaymin (Land) 11 Shedinja 6 Shiftry 13 Shuckle 2 Skarmory 18 Skuntank 12 Slaking 10 Slowbro 9 Smeargle 15 Snorlax 11 Solrock 12 Spinda 6 Spiritomb 10 Stantler 8 Staraptor 14 Starmie 15 Steelix 14 Sudowoodo 5 Suicune 13 Sunflora 4 Swalot 9 Swampert 14 Swellow 12 Tangrowth 9 Tauros 7 Tentacruel 14 Togekiss 16 Torkoal 5 Torterra 10 Toxicroak 12 Tropius 9 Typhlosion 11 Tyranitar 20 Umbreon 12 Unown 2 Ursaring 7 Uxie 14 Vaporeon 12 Venomoth 14 Venusaur 9 Vespiquen 5 Victreebel 8 Vileplume 8 Volbeat 8 Wailord 10 Walrein 11 Weavile 17 Weezing 7 Whiscash 11 Wigglytuff 11 Wormadam (P) 4 Wormadam (S) 6 Wormadam (T) 10 Wurmple 1 Xatu 14 Yanmega 15 Zangoose 9 Zapdos 17 This one lists them by their value. Spoiler:List Jirachi 26 Heatran 24 Blissey 23 Infernape 21 Tyranitar 20 Chansey 19 Aerodactyl 19 Celebi 19 Empoleon 19 Metagross 19 Registeel 18 Lucario 18 Skarmory 18 Flygon 18 Crobat 17 Weavile 17 Zapdos 17 Gliscor 17 Dragonite 17 Gengar 17 Togekiss 16 Scizor 16 Ninjask 16 Sharpedo 16 Bronzong 15 Kingdra 15 Froslass 15 Magnezone 15 Mamoswine 15 Starmie 15 Kabutops 15 Smeargle 15 Yanmega 15 Aggron 15 Houndoom 15 Azelf 14 Steelix 14 Gallade 14 Staraptor 14 Venomoth 14 Blaziken 14 Drapion 14 Altaria 14 Drifblim 14 Tentacruel 14 Swampert 14 Xatu 14 Poliwrath 14 Uxie 14 Forretress 14 Lanturn 14 Honchkrow 13 Jynx 13 Shiftry 13 Clefable 13 Nidoking 13 Nidoqueen 13 Lapras 13 Gligar 13 Entei 13 Gyarados 13 Cresselia 13 Miltank 13 Qwilfish 13 Rhyperior 13 Rotom (Frost) 13 Suicune 13 Hippowdon 12 Lunatone 12 Mismagius 12 Rotom (Fan) 12 Rotom (Wash) 12 Vaporeon 12 Medicham 12 Omastar 12 Relicanth 12 Charizard 12 Rotom (Heat) 12 Rotom (Mow) 12 Skuntank 12 Swellow 12 Toxicroak 12 Probopass 12 Raikou 12 Solrock 12 Claydol 12 Jolteon 12 Mesprit 12 Ludicolo 12 Floatzel 12 Magneton 12 Umbreon 12 Alakazam 12 Milotic 12 Electivire 11 Arcanine 11 Pidgeot 11 Walrein 11 Whiscash 11 Breloom 11 Moltres 11 Shaymin (Land) 11 Articuno 11 Espeon 11 Fearow 11 Golduck 11 Roserade 11 Rotom 11 Snorlax 11 Wigglytuff 11 Absol 11 Ambipom 11 Gastrodon 11 Cradily 11 Abomasnow 11 Bibarel 11 Rapidash 11 Chatot 11 Typhlosion 11 Politoed 10 Dewgong 10 Magmortar 10 Mantine 10 Porygon-Z 10 Sceptile 10 Bastiodon 10 Crawdaunt 10 Gardevoir 10 Lumineon 10 Ninetales 10 Phione 10 Quagsire 10 Rampardos 10 Torterra 10 Cacturne 10 Cloyster 10 Noctowl 10 Blastoise 10 Exeggutor 10 Feraligatr 10 Heracross 10 Jumpluff 10 Sableye 10 Grumpig 10 Slaking 10 Wormadam (T) 10 Dodrio 10 Illumise 10 Regirock 10 Girafarig 10 Golem 10 Kangaskhan 10 Lopunny 10 Dunsparce 10 Persian 10 Wailord 10 Spiritomb 10 Slowbro 9 Leafeon 9 Mawile 9 Scyther 9 Hariyama 9 Lickilicky 9 Pelipper 9 Dugtrio 9 Electabuzz 9 Primeape 9 Venusaur 9 Electrode 9 Tangrowth 9 Zangoose 9 Machamp 9 Raichu 9 Purugly 9 Tropius 9 Flareon 9 Regigigas 9 Swalot 9 Camerupt 8 Muk 8 Manectric 8 Glalie 8 Hypno 8 Luxray 8 Stantler 8 Seaking 8 Victreebel 8 Mightyena 8 Mr. Mime 8 Porygon2 8 Sandslash 8 Azumarill 8 Chimecho 8 Glaceon 8 Kingler 8 Dusknoir 8 Banette 8 Hitmonlee 8 Octillery 8 Donphan 8 Linoone 8 Meganium 8 Armaldo 8 Volbeat 8 Vileplume 8 Ampharos 7 Dustox 7 Furret 7 Hitmontop 7 Pachirisu 7 Tauros 7 Beedrill 7 Corsola 7 Granbull 7 Arbok 7 Gorebyss 7 Hitmonchan 7 Raticate 7 Ursaring 7 Pikachu 7 Huntail 7 Delcatty 7 Regice 7 Seviper 7 Farfetch'd 7 Minun 7 Plusle 7 Weezing 7 Bellossom 7 Exploud 7 Kecleon 7 Marowak 7 Mothim 7 Cherrim 7 Luvdisc 6 Beautifly 6 Ledian 6 Masquerain 6 Abra 6 Ivysaur 6 Butterfree 6 Castform 6 Spinda 6 Carnivine 6 Magcargo 6 Shedinja 6 Pinsir 6 Wormadam (S) 6 Ariados 5 Vespiquen 5 Delibird 5 Torkoal 5 Sudowoodo 5 Sunflora 4 Wormadam (P) 4 Parasect 4 Kricketune 4 Pichu 3 Shuckle 2 Unown 2 Wurmple 1 quote Someone that asked a question quote Dragoon952 ------------------- Poison Badge | |
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Lord Salamence | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
Here is the link to all of my work regarding the PVS. It's in spreadsheet form and is current through 4th Gen (no 5th Gen work has been done): http://www.prinnysquad.net/pokemon/PVS_10_15_10.xlsx The work is in several tabs, so I'll try to explain it all. It makes sense to me, but I've learned that I don't make sense to most people so it probably isn't good to assume other people are following me 1.) Value List - Simply an alphabetical listing with all of the values. I was originally going to calculate a different value for each ability, but to avoid "cheating" it was agreed upon to just take what would be the highest value and use that generally for the pokemon. 2.) Pokemon Details - I found it easiest to keep track of all my work if I put it in a nice format, so this tab should have everything I used number wise to do the calculation for each pokemon. 3.) Type Modifiers - This is where I calculated the type modifiers for usage in the equations. Ignore any dual type offensive numbers. Originally I was calculating offense by synergies between the two STAB types, but it was a flawed theory and we found it better to each STAB type individually. 4.) Move List - This is every move listed in the game and the numbers used in calculation. I kind of filled it out as I went along, but there's a fair bit of data missing. Generally, attack values are (Base Power x Accuracy). Stat values are the hardest to come up with because, other than abilities, it is truly the most subjective part of the game and also the equations. 5.) Abilities - This is where I have listed the effects every ability has on the equations. I filled this out as I went along as well, so not all of them are filled in. Like stat values, this is the most subjective part of this system and can be heavily modified as we see fit. 6.) Equations - This is where I've written down all of the equations. I hope they are up to date. Sometimes I make minor tweaks and I just pray to God I wrote it down. Should be pretty accurate as of now. 7.) Averages - Don't worry about that. Just a place where I tried to find the mean/median HP and Speed of all pokemon in order to use in the equations. In any event, this is free for anyone to use and reference. The more people calculating the better. If you want to give a shot at some that haven't been done it would be wonderful. You can practice on ones that have been done to see if the numbers sync with what I got (and I could be wrong in my math or we could round slightly differently). If you are getting the hang of it, try your hand at a few that haven't been done. Feel free to post calculated values here as well so they can be reviewed by other users and added to the ever growing list. Forgot to mention, as an aside, keep in mind that this is in the very earliest stages of development and is in no way, shape, or form done (or perfected). My hope is to get enough input that we can refine the equations enough that it works across the board. new Pokemon and moves (a la 5th Gen) could then easily be plugged in without much hassle. It's only going to get better with help and discussion. There are already adjustments that need to be made (working on redoing offense because monotypes seem to be getting underrated, for instance), but together I'm sure we can get a lot accomplished as opposed to me working by myself. Disclaimer: I am not advertising Smogon, or anything, just prompting discussion. ------------------- Poison Badge | |
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RazeHell | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
Interesting idea.
But I think it's too radical of a change. I don't think everybody will be happy to adapt to this new system. I might build my team like this, to see how it'll compare. Though 60 points might be a little low... ------------------- Silence, bring my soul up here. Bring me up when there's nothing here. | |
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MagnetBoy | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
You say NFEs haven't been evaluated yet. However, why bother with Wurmple if it receives a 1? And why does Abra get a rate (and a 6 at that) while Kadabra gets nothing? Pardon me if I overlooked explanantions previously given, but I'm just curious.
One more thing. A 24 on Heatran/A 26 on Jirachi seems a little high... I'm not saying they aren't great Pokemon and all, but they are beaten rather easily with a Ground-type move and a strong Fire-type move, respectively. So this is solely based on moves, typing, and stats then? That seems highly inaccurate, even if it's looking to be adjusted. Like with Jirachi, it has great stats backed up by solid typing and an absurd movepool. But if I'm wielding any sort of strong Fire-type attack, or STAB Earthquake, it's going down pretty fast. With Heatran, it also dies to most Earthquakes. Blissey is beaten by the ever-present Infernape, which in turn is taken down by the equally common Jellicent among innumerable others. On the other hand, you have things like Shuckle. So its stats (apart form Def and Sp.Def) suck, and it has a pitiful movepool. But its typing leaves room for weaknesses to only Water and Rock (and Steel, but that's never seen). Plus, when in the right hands, it can make the life of any team hell with either godly stalling/walling powers or beastly STAB RockSlide after a PowerTrick. ------------------- Have cool sets? Post in the Moveset Competition and see how you stack up!
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RazeHell | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
quote MagnetBoy Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch say hi. ------------------- Silence, bring my soul up here. Bring me up when there's nothing here. | |
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MagnetBoy | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
Okay BulletPunch then. But MeteorMash is only ever seen on Metagross, as far as I've ever noticed (which, by the way, seems a little high up at 19).
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Lord Salamence | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
I didn't do this, only seeing what you'd say. I'll link Dragoon to here, kay?
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Shawn Yasumara | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
Going by my this,my team (without Salamence,who I can't find) is 66,so I can't use my team in this metagame
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Lord Salamence | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
Yeah. I'll see if I could pull my weight to see if I can get "PVS Ubers" or something.
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Shawn Yasumara | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
quote Lord SalamenceOk.So then my team of Swellow/Skarmory/Nidoking/Salamence/Quagsire/Exeggutor can take on the likes of Mewtwo and Kyogre.Looks like I get a bit more of a challenge. ------------------- | |
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Lord Salamence | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
Something like that.
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Dragoon952 | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
LS directed me here, so I'll see if I can answer a few questions.
First, this is not intended in any way, shape, or form to replace anything. It's just a whole new metagame "alternative." Just a new way to play if you feel like it. The impetus behind me trying my hand at designing this was because the biggest complaint I have heard is from people wanting to see more variety in their battles. I used to be a avid Battletech player (or Mechwarrior if you are familiar with the video games) and they had a point system for battles to make things fair but allow a full range of choices. You could take that big hulking brute, but the other guy might be able to take three smaller ones. In theory, that match should be "even" if the numbers are even. Since pokemon is, at its base, a bunch of numbers, I tried to just harvest that and put it to use. In this system there are no tiers at all. At the most there will be an uber ban list (although I've heard people wanting to try a 1 on 6 or 2 on 6 kind of match up, but that's another story). Both players agree to what point value they want for the battle, and then they pick their teams. It's completely flexible based on the players. If your favorite team tops out at 75, then just find other players that like to play at that level or above. However, the higher you get, it will just look like a standard Smogon OU tier battle. The lower you get, it will really start forcing you to look for new options. It is my hope that this will make some pokemon thrive that are good by themselves, but are relegated to little play simply because something does it just slightly better. quote MagnetBoyThe reason why the NFE's are missing is simple: I'm one guy with an idea and it takes a long time to sit back and run all of the numbers by myself. I was hoping to get this enough traction that I'll find people to help, because it simply takes a lot of time. I did a few (like Abra and Wurmple) just to test and see what they looked like, and just included their numbers because they were done. The main theory is this: what is the potential of a pokemon when facing any random opponent in a vacuum right out of the gate. The more you move past turn 1 the more you get too many variables. So it is a snap shot of right when they come out and what they can do. Sure, if Trick Room is set up, Pokemon A might be a beast, but that is impossible to calculate. I think these match ups get over-thought sometimes. Short of the Garchomp and Salamence debates, everything can have a counter. Just because Infernape CAN switch into Jirachi and wax the floor with it doesn't take away from all of the amazing stuff Jirachi can do sans having to stand up to its counter toe to toe. Also, you have to think from the perspective of this metagame if it gets off the ground. In OU there are no restrictions as to the pokemon you can bring other than ubers. In this system, you can't just bring out Infernapes and Jirachis at lower team totals without it hurting your team elsewhere. Usual threats won't be as ever-present as they used to be, and new threats you weren't expecting might come up. And that's what I hope is fun about it: getting surprised by something like a Camerupt and having it be competitive. As for the equations, in a nutshell, it takes into account the following: Base Stats, Typing, Abilities, STAB Offense, Non-STAB offense, entry hazards, stat boosting moves, status effect moves, status effects associated with attacks in the movepool, healing moves, etc. I take every number possible they give us and go from there. The real goal is to be as objective as possible, but that can't entirely happen. Abilities are a prime example because they can be so situational. So, that's the real subjective part that can be tweaked a lot. Non-attacking moves are similar, have to account for them subjectively because they are situational. Other than than, I hope this can be refined into a sound equation that makes this work. Anyway, that was long winded. I hope I explained it though. I'll try and sneak in here every now and then and answer questions. Just keep an open mind and think of this as just a possible fun new way to play | |
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Lord Salamence | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
dragoon952, you mentiones stat boosting moves.
Could that mean, theoretically, if Ferrothorn got Agility, its point value would get boosted more because of a worthless stat booster? What about having, say Meditate, (boosts ATK +1) on a Pokemon that has Dragon Dance, or Swords Dance. Meditate is completely outclassed, but the Pokemon would still get a point boost from it? ------------------- Poison Badge | |
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Dragoon952 | re: PVS: Point Value System, the discussion. |
quote Lord SalamenceI only took into account stat boosting moves that give a +2 overall stat boost (no Howl or Meditate, for instance). The non-Attack movepool is generated by adding the value of all non-attacking moves in the movepool that are counted in the equation. This is kind of the subjective part, but generally I gave +2 stat boosting moves a 20 and then some other moves, like Light Screen and Reflect, a 50. Add them all together for that part. If Ferrothorn has Agility, you count it. To be objective in this regard, you have to count every move in the movepool that are used in the equation. The more you get into "Well, this pokemon really can't use it well" the more subjective it becomes. If that makes sense. | |
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