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Demonfurby master of karate and friendship NeoXtreme since: Dec 2005	Jan 18, 13 at 11:32am ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	Log in to remove this advertisement quote Sweeney quote Demonfurby Ok? You're arguing morals here. Nobody's right or wrong there. When you look at the tangible gains Armstrong made for cancer and "the average man who's battled cancer" it's not even close who did more good. You have more respect for the second guy? Cool. Guess who's helped save more lives. Those people don't give a shit about competitive spirit or anything like that. This is exactly what I was talking about a few posts ago about simple thought processes. It's like you can't comprehend why what he did was wrong because it lead to more money for charity. If I rob $1 million from a bank and give $500k to charity, would you respect me more than a person who earns a living at work 5 days a week and gives what they can? My $500k will save more lives after all. Nevermind that guard I shot and those bank workers I left traumatised. No, I understand what he did. A huge part of what he did was bad. I think he's a bad person. It doesn't matter to me for the most part Again, morals morals morals. Congrats guys you think you're better than him. You probably are. But the people who's lives were saved in part because of him are getting my focus. That good is way more impactful than the bad he did. Did he hurt some rich people? Yeah. Did he deceive the public for personal gain? Yeah. Did he help alot of people beat cancer, support families going through the process, get alot of money for cancer research and serve as an inspiration for the people he helped? Yeah. Pick which one you want to focus on, but it's clear to me the latter is what's most important about him. That's a hilarious analogy though. He did way more than just steal money and give some to charity. He stole money, gave alot to charity, and got waaaaaaaay more money from his persona and symbol from the public to give to his charity and cancer research in general. He also served as inspiration to people battling cancer. Where's that in your analogy? I also don't see the equivalent of him "traumatizing and shooting people". quote D I O S Dude, we're not anti-Armstrong and therefore bleeping pro-cancer. We're just anti-Armstrong cause he's a drugs cheat. Yes well done with his charity, absolutely outstanding work, but he's a cheat who brought the sport he 'loves' into heavy disrepute. Except you're (as in, everyone in this thread who's first post in this forum is in this thread) making him out to be Satan himself. And the sport brought the "heavy disrepute" onto itself with its lax testing and allowance of its athletes to use. Stop scapegoating Armstrong. Nobody blames the stigma of the steroid era on Barry Bonds. quote Also, how the bleep are you blaming butthurt Europeans hating him when it took way longer to get Armstrong than loads of European cyclists. Surely we'd have let them off if all we gave a shit about was a cheating American winning it. I really don't know. Again, I don't care about cycling. Everything I know about the sport comes from what I've learned about Armstrong. I know he passed every single test he was presented with during his career and the only sources claiming he doped were from his teammates. And teammates that weren't as good as him that have an axe to grind aren't the most reputable people to be basing investigations that shake the not only the entire sport he helped build but also destroy the charity that has helped so many. So just look at it from the perspective of an American three months ago: Those are the only people coming forward to claim he was cheating and risk destroying so much that has helped so many, and it's a Swiss organization that started everything that led to this. How does that not look like it's just some mad euros pissed about an american dominating their sport. quote Also, not everyone was doping. The top cyclists were, yes, but many others weren't who y'know unsurprisingly couldn't quite keep pace with the drugs cheat. Every source I've checked has claimed that only a minority of people weren't and that the sport is clean only now. quote (least effective word in annoying someone btw, you just sound like a 10 year old) Because we were trying to annoy the nonexistent europeans in this forum quote Andres It's not really an investigation when he's admitted to his use of the drugs though, is it? It was an investigation months ago when this thread was started. I'm assuming you didn't check when this thread was created. That seems to be a habit of people on this site. quote I know Armstrong contributed more, I stated it in my reply. To me he is a cyclists first and he has ruined his reputation because of his drug use and should be punished. He's getting punished. He's probably going to lose alot of money. He may go to jail. His reputation is unsalvagable. The punishment will last for the rest of his life. quote Now his charity work I believe is all circumstantial. Lets say he never developed cancer and never gave any money to charity to fight cancer. I would gather from the way he has allowed himself personal and professional gains for over a decade he would not have contributed anything charitable to a cause he had no affiliation to. Had that been the case he would now have nothing to save face. Yeah? I wouldn't care at all about him if he didn't do any of the charity stuff. Like I said, I don't care about the sport. quote And do you have anything to back up your claims apart from conjecture? Armstrong was supposed to be something of a role model and I imagine the idea that he could come back from cancer and still be an elite athlete would be inspirational for a lot of people who have battled the disease. Performance enhancing drugs somewhat takes the shine off that, don't you think? You mean sources and shit? I'm sure you could find plenty of them with some quick research, but his impact is huge just from living life here. Years ago when he came out with his livestrong campaign there were stories everywhere about the families and victims of cancer that were getting help from his organization and people getting inspired by him.Merchandise was everywhere. People love being apart of a cause, and cancer was the new thing. The drugs do take the shine off a bit, but they don't take away what he's done for the people battling the disease. His symbol is pretty much ruined but his impact will continue. ------------------- really cool free game
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DjedwardSmith Victoria Per Deditionem Purely Neo total posts: 26952 since: Feb 2003	Jan 18, 13 at 11:42am ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	quote Demonfurby I also don't see the equivalent of him "traumatizing and shooting people". The careers of many clean riders stagnated and under-achieved because they weren't willing to cheat. The employability, dignity and reputation of multiple journalists, fellow cyclists, reporters, hell even his own teammates who he took to court and sued for accusing him of cheating. quote Except you're (as in, everyone in this thread who's first post in this forum is in this thread) making him out to be Satan himself. Well we're not really, are we. Moreso pointing out the hilarity in what some members have posted with regards to the only people who care being 'butthurt Europeans'. quote And the sport brought the "heavy disrepute" onto itself with its lax testing and allowance of its athletes to use. Stop scapegoating Armstrong. Nobody blames the stigma of the steroid era on Barry Bonds. The testing wasn't lax, Armstrong was running the most sophisticated doping system ever seen at the time. He took tests in the triple figure amount, but was one step ahead as if the case across multiple sports which are only just recently managing to get ahead of the dopers. Scapegoating? No, he's the figurehead. As Armstrong himself said, his story is like a mythical perfect scenario, a perfect possibility; people bought into that for years, only to now find out it's a sham. How do you think those people feel, regardless of his money raised? There's a lot more to it than just charity money raised vs bike result races. He was a figurehead, an idol, an inspiration to people who no doubt invested countless emotion, time, belief and in commercial cases finaces in him. To find out he's a cheat. quote I know he passed every single test he was presented with during his career and the only sources claiming he doped were from his teammates. Rumours of the odd failed test being covered up by 'donations' are circulating. Latter point is wrong too a massuer claimed to have witnessed him doping, as do various journalists. quote And teammates that weren't as good as him that have an axe to grind aren't the most reputable people to be basing investigations that shake the not only the entire sport he helped build but also destroy the charity that has helped so many. Or athletes that were as good as him and suddenly wondered why he came back from struggling to even finish the Tour De France one year to winning it by eight minutes the next? quote So just look at it from the perspective of an American three months ago: Those are the only people coming forward to claim he was cheating and risk destroying so much that has helped so many, and it's a Swiss organization that started everything that led to this. How does that not look like it's just some mad euros pissed about an american dominating their sport. It would take somebody devoid of any sort of theoretical and logical thinking capabilities to think along those lines. Oh, did you say perspective of an American? Apologies, fair point. quote Every source I've checked has claimed that only a minority of people weren't and that the sport is clean only now. Ridiculously naive to suggest only a minority weren't. The majority of riders were clean, it's just that those were the ones at the back of the pack in most instances or even chased out of the sport because they were unwilling to dope. You'll also find that the tours most recent multiple winner was castigated by these butthurt Europeans for failing a drugs test. Alberto Contador in case you were wondering. He's Spanish. Gosh those bloody Europeans, they just can't have any outsiders dominating their sports. ------------------- quote Arsene Wenger There's not as much talent as money today in football.
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Andres Neoholic total posts: 10989 since: Dec 2005	Jan 18, 13 at 12:09pm ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	quote Demonfurby It was an investigation months ago when this thread was started. I'm assuming you didn't check when this thread was created. That seems to be a habit of people on this site. I did, in fact, read through the entire thread before my first post. Surprisingly, things have changed over the course of the last six months and more evidence and even an admission of guilty has been made. Don't be elitist now. quote He's getting punished. He's probably going to lose alot of money. He may go to jail. His reputation is unsalvagable. The punishment will last for the rest of his life. And rightly so. Glad we agree. I'm pleased he has to spend the rest of his life trying to earn back people's trust. quote Yeah? I wouldn't care at all about him if he didn't do any of the charity stuff. Like I said, I don't care about the sport. But neither do I care that he has done all his fundraising for charity beneath a web of lies and also to enhance his own personal gains. Right intentions yes, but abusing your profession and position as a celebrity is not the ethical way to do it. He is well know enough throughout the world to organise something outside of professional cycling to create a large scale fundraising event for charities. quote You mean sources and shit? I'm sure you could find plenty of them with some quick research, but his impact is huge just from living life here. Years ago when he came out with his livestrong campaign there were stories everywhere about the families and victims of cancer that were getting help from his organization and people getting inspired by him.Merchandise was everywhere. People love being apart of a cause, and cancer was the new thing. The drugs do take the shine off a bit, but they don't take away what he's done for the people battling the disease. His symbol is pretty much ruined but his impact will continue. Anything. Facts, figures, stories. His philanthropic influence isn't really felt here in the UK but his status as an elite athlete was. I think Livestrong have suffered as a result of this whole ordeal, so what to say their impact will be as strong as it was?
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person_47 I am not a cat threadnought total posts: 651 since: Nov 2012	Jan 18, 13 at 12:32pm ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	quote Modiga quote person_47 quote Av3ry I know a lot of you are European convicts but good grief. That is the single most ignorant sentence I've read all day. You can haz prize. It isn't our fault you're continent had enough convicts to populate an entire continent and then some. /Googles countries prison population 1 United States of America 2 St. Kitts and Nevis 3 Seychelles 4 Virgin Islands (USA) 5 Rwanda 6 Georgia 7 Cuba 8 Russian Federation (as a percentage per population) Obviously there's no Europe in the top 5, they shipped all their villains out years ago. Note the word "had". I'm not talking about my lifetime. Didn't think he was either or it would be an even more stupid post.
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Demonfurby master of karate and friendship NeoXtreme since: Dec 2005	Jan 18, 13 at 2:08pm ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	quote DjedwardSmith The careers of many clean riders stagnated and under-achieved because they weren't willing to cheat. The employability, dignity and reputation of multiple journalists, fellow cyclists, reporters, hell even his own teammates who he took to court and sued for accusing him of cheating. While I don't doubt most of that is true, that doesn't make it a good analogy. I'd also like some evidence for everything but the last part. I've seen many journalists follow, romanticize, and build up corrupt sports icons with almost nothing comong from it except eating dirt and then turning on the athlete. ESPN has made their entire network from these people. They usually just become bitter and fling shit at the athlete later on in their career whenever the athlete comes up in the news (basically every baseball journalist from the 90s). quote Well we're not really, are we. Moreso pointing out the hilarity in what some members have posted with regards to the only people who care being 'butthurt Europeans'. Seven months ago when the public was ignorant of this? Yeah, hilarious. Keep running with it. quote The testing wasn't lax, Armstrong was running the most sophisticated doping system ever seen at the time. He took tests in the triple figure amount, but was one step ahead as if the case across multiple sports which are only just recently managing to get ahead of the dopers. Ok. So for a small amount of time he was cheating, becoming the best in the world, getting alot of attention to both the sport and cancer, and then fell from grace. What's the harm of it (other than the teammates he hurt, he's shit for that)? The sport got attention and money from a country that otherwise wouldn't give a shit about it. So the sport has a stigma in America now? So? What's the harm in that? They're in the same position they were in before Armstrong. If Europeans are so smart they must know all of this and continue to support the sport in whatever capacity they do. quote No, he's the figurehead. As Armstrong himself said, his story is like a mythical perfect scenario, a perfect possibility; people bought into that for years, only to now find out it's a sham. How do you think those people feel, regardless of his money raised? Stupid. When your hero gets exposed that's generally what happens. It's happened to alot of people with alot of athletes, celebrities etc. People get over it. quote There's a lot more to it than just charity money raised vs bike result races. He was a figurehead, an idol, an inspiration to people who no doubt invested countless emotion, time, belief and in commercial cases finaces in him. To find out he's a cheat. Talk about exaggerating. The only people who invested enough time and emotion in his cause are the ones directly affected by it. And those people battled cancer themselves or helped their family member get through it. You think they're weak enough to be affected by it? They'll be mad. Or they'll toss it aside and say he did a bunch of good and not care about the sport. Everyone else was just trying to make themselves feel good by donating to a cause. People like causes. You know what they're doing now? Saying "bleep that cheat" and moving on with their lives. They'll never respect him again but does it matter? But then again the point is moot. I've already said he's a shitty person. you've said it, everyone's said it. quote Or athletes that were as good as him and suddenly wondered why he came back from struggling to even finish the Tour De France one year to winning it by eight minutes the next? None of that got attention here so I wouldn't know. quote It would take somebody devoid of any sort of theoretical and logical thinking capabilities to think along those lines. Oh? >Teammates that were hurt that he cheated because they weren't successful when he was (we didn't know he cheated when this all began) >Only people coming forward to expose him were the same teammates that weren't as good (so it looks like they have an axe to grind, they're jealous of him) >These people risk destroying the good that the livestrong foundation has built (people don't like it when their cause is threatened) >The dominant figure in a primarily European sport (that's headed by Europeans and the majority of athletes are from there) is American. >The investigation is started by the SCA quote Oh, did you say perspective of an American? Apologies, fair point. How cute. That isn't played out or anything quote Ridiculously naive to suggest only a minority weren't. The majority of riders were clean, it's just that those were the ones at the back of the pack in most instances or even chased out of the sport because they were unwilling to dope. Would love to see the stats quote Gosh those bloody Europeans, they just can't have any outsiders dominating their sports. Cool, you can read shit from seven months ago. quote Andres I did, in fact, read through the entire thread before my first post. Surprisingly, things have changed over the course of the last six months and more evidence and even an admission of guilty has been made. Don't be elitist now. And I'm not saying it's because europeans are mad anymore and everyone knows it. Again, I've admitted he's a shit person. Doesn't change the good he's done. quote But neither do I care that he has done all his fundraising for charity beneath a web of lies and also to enhance his own personal gains. Right intentions yes, but abusing your profession and position as a celebrity is not the ethical way to do it. He is well know enough throughout the world to organise something outside of professional cycling to create a large scale fundraising event for charities. I realize that. He's shit, but that doesn't disregard the good he's helped create. There are better ways to go about helping people but it's pretty moot to say he shouldn't have. All we can do now is continue reaping the benefits of his foundation. quote Anything. Facts, figures, stories. His philanthropic influence isn't really felt here in the UK but his status as an elite athlete was. I think Livestrong have suffered as a result of this whole ordeal, so what to say their impact will be as strong as it was? Can't find anything specific from before this whole ordeal started with a quick search but here's some stuff http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/10/17/cancer-survivors-voice-support-for-livestrong-foundation/1639867/ http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/18/health/lance-armstrong-cancer-survivors/?hpt=he_c1 http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/01/17/local-cancer-survivors-stand-by-armstrong-after-doping-confession/ http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2013/01/18/16583667-livestrong-ceo-armstrongs-admission-brings-both-sadness-and-relief?lite http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/18/livestrong-lance-armstrong-confession_n_2501976.html?utm_hp_ref=impact Livestrong's definitely suffering, and their impact won't be as big as before but it's still going to help people. That's what matters I think this argument's run its course. Next person will say he's bad and done bad things. I'll say he's bad, done bad things. Merits of philanthropy will be challenged. etc etc etc Edit: Jan 18, 13 2:42pm ------------------- really cool free game
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DjedwardSmith Victoria Per Deditionem Purely Neo total posts: 26952 since: Feb 2003	Jan 18, 13 at 3:01pm ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	quote Demonfurby I'd also like some evidence for everything but the last part. I've seen many journalists follow, romanticize, and build up corrupt sports icons with almost nothing comong from it except eating dirt and then turning on the athlete. ESPN has made their entire network from these people. They usually just become bitter and fling shit at the athlete later on in their career whenever the athlete comes up in the news (basically every baseball journalist from the 90s). Iirc the teammates were Hamilton and Landis (amongst others, but they're the high profile ones). The journalists are many and varied but the one I do know of who's maintained this line for years is Paul Kimmage (who tweeted about losing his job at the Sunday Times because of his insistence to keep pursuing doping). Let alone Suing the Sunday Times for libel with regards to his doping. quote Seven months ago when the public was ignorant of this? Yeah, hilarious. Keep running with it. How does that explain how we're acting as if he's Satan? quote Ok. So for a small amount of time he was cheating, becoming the best in the world, getting alot of attention to both the sport and cancer, and then fell from grace. No, for the entire period within which he was successful. quote What's the harm of it (other than the teammates he hurt, he's shit for that)? On what level? You've already said you don't care for the harm done on a sporting level (whereas most of us in here, as quite passionate sports fans, do), but even on a personal level you can't ignore the hurt it caused to the numerous people he forced to go through lawsuits, trials, libel cases etc... quote So the sport has a stigma in America now? So? What's the harm in that? Really You don't see the problem in what is now regarded as a clean sport having a stigma attatched to it that everyone is a cheat in one of it's biggest markets? quote Stupid. When your hero gets exposed that's generally what happens. It's happened to alot of people with alot of athletes, celebrities etc. People get over it. That doesn't justify it, nor should it negate it. quote Talk about exaggerating. Ironic, but I digress. quote The only people who invested enough time and emotion in his cause are the ones directly affected by it. Absolute hogswash. He was the poster boy for beating cancer, the poster boy for winning 'clean', the poster boy for triumph in adversity. There will be millions of people who bought his branded stuff, who flew to watch him race, attended his events, all putting money into the pockets of someone who was only afforded such a platform through cheating. quote And those people battled cancer themselves or helped their family member get through it. You think they're weak enough to be affected by it? They'll be mad. Or they'll toss it aside and say he did a bunch of good and not care about the sport. Of which you (and I don't pretend I do either) have no clue as to how they'll react. Some might just brush it off, others might be completely broken. quote Oh? >Teammates that were hurt that he cheated because they weren't successful when he was (we didn't know he cheated when this all began) But those teammates did, right from the very start. And the other riders were all suspicious, as were the many journalists who questioned it. quote >Only people coming forward to expose him were the same teammates that weren't as good (so it looks like they have an axe to grind, they're jealous of him) Who could possibly come forward that was as good or better than Armstrong? Poor logic. It only looks like they're jealous because that's the cynicism with which you wish to view the situation with. quote >These people risk destroying the good that the livestrong foundation has built (people don't like it when their cause is threatened) Armstrong himself did that. quote >The dominant figure in a primarily European sport (that's headed by Europeans and the majority of athletes are from there) is American. I don't know if you know this about us over here but we don't think of ourselves as European. There's not a grouping us vs them, Europeans vs Yanks. It's individual countries vs individual countries. A swiss doping investigator would take no more pleasure in catching out an American rider (Armstrong) than he would a Spanish rider (Contador). quote Would love to see the stats 36 of 45 top-3 finishers from 1996 to 2010 were doing it So whilst the majority, it's not even close to a 'tiny minority' of riders weren't. And notice that's just top 3, who're probably placed where they are because they doped. Behind them will likely be a whole raft of clean cyclists denied their chance of a fair race. Mod Edit: Jan 19, 13 11:18am by Mr Matthews ------------------- quote Arsene Wenger There's not as much talent as money today in football.
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PEStar #EEF0F9, #C6D0E7 Permanently Plugged In total posts: 13072 since: Oct 2007	Jan 18, 13 at 3:02pm ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	I think it all borders around people defending someone who has cheated people out of money, prestige and honours, effectively being a thief. Regardless of whether doping is big in some sports, not EVERYONE does it. And just because one athlete has more success in doping than another does not make it okay. Mod Edit: Jan 19, 13 11:18am by Mr Matthews -------------------
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PEStar #EEF0F9, #C6D0E7 Permanently Plugged In total posts: 13072 since: Oct 2007	Jan 18, 13 at 3:49pm ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	He was average before his cancer. Then he says he adopted some sort of win by all costs attitude after he came back which to me sounds like blaming doping on his cancer (think DjedwardSmith alluded to that when the Oprah interview was on). I just find it indefensible. Maybe to people who watch sports where incidents like this are more common, but I don't, so I just don't see how the actions of someone who has stolen success and won millions not only through that success but through subsequent libel and slander suits against cheating accusations can be defended. -------------------
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Demonfurby master of karate and friendship NeoXtreme since: Dec 2005	Jan 18, 13 at 4:22pm ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	quote DjedwardSmith Iirc the teammates were Hamilton and Landis (amongst others, but they're the high profile ones). The journalists are many and varied but the one I do know of who's maintained this line for years is Paul Kimmage (who tweeted about losing his job at the Sunday Times because of his insistence to keep pursuing doping). Let alone Suing the Sunday Times for libel with regards to his doping. Unfortunate. He's an awful person for what he did. quote How does that explain how we're acting as if he's Satan? I was referring to the continuous bringing up of the 'butthurt' comment. quote No, for the entire period within which he was successful. I meant small relative to how long the sports been around. quote On what level? You've already said you don't care for the harm done on a sporting level (whereas most of us in here, as quite passionate sports fans, do), but even on a personal level you can't ignore the hurt it caused to the numerous people he forced to go through lawsuits, trials, libel cases etc... No, but I don't know the scope of the personal impact of the journalist stuff. I don't know about all of them, but his named teammates that have come forth aren't to bad off. Teammates on the most successful team eve Not saying it's alright but my sympathies only go so far. The media, yeah. The people he boxed out of the sport, yeah. Relatively wealthy professional athletes, no. quote Really You don't see the problem in what is now regarded as a clean sport having a stigma attatched to it that everyone is a cheat in one of it's biggest markets? Without Armstrong America isn't a big market for cycling. At all. The only reason it was big was because of Armstrong. There are too many sports here for it to compete. Americans don't care about any kind of racing other than Nascar at large. quote That doesn't justify it, nor should it negate it. It doesn't but it's not that big of a deal. quote Absolute hogswash. He was the poster boy for beating cancer, the poster boy for winning 'clean', the poster boy for triumph in adversity. There will be millions of people who bought his branded stuff, who flew to watch him race, attended his events, all putting money into the pockets of someone who was only afforded such a platform through cheating. Yep a very very large amount of people gave him a relatively small amount of money per person. But I was refering to you saying emotionally invested. Whatever amount of emotion they invested with him (other than the people affected by cancer, but I addressed that) was at a superficial level. People go "What a cheat, can't believe I bought a wristband." and move on. You're acting as if people are scarred over what happened and they aren't. Until you find an instance of someone who is it's ridiculous to assume they are. quote Of which you (and I don't pretend I do either) have no clue as to how they'll react. Some might just brush it off, others might be completely broken. I provided a bunch of link of people's reactions to the story. Nobody's life is over from that. If they are then they have some bigger issues than Armstrong cheating. And again, find me someone who is and we'll talk. quote But those teammates did, right from the very start. And the other riders were all suspicious, as were the many journalists who questioned it. But the only ones that got attention here were the teammates. Cycling isn't big here, people aren't going to be looking for those other riders or journalists if they don't get media attention unless they're trying to discredit Armstrong. quote Who could possibly come forward that was as good or better than Armstrong? Poor logic. It only looks like they're jealous because that's the cynicism with which you wish to view the situation with. That's the public's logic. Americans aren't stupid. People are stupid. And the more people apart of a cause that's doing good, with the lack of information being presented aren't going to look for a reason to try to rock the boat. quote Armstrong did that himself Again, look at it from the public's perspective during that time. quote I don't know if you know this about us over here but we don't think of ourselves as European. There's not a grouping us vs them, Europeans vs Yanks. It's individual countries vs individual countries. A swiss doping investigator would take no more pleasure in catching out an American rider (Armstrong) than he would a Spanish rider (Contador). You're giving me a lesson about generalizing? Didn't you suggest all Americans are stupid last page? "It would take somebody devoid of any sort of theoretical and logical thinking capabilities to think along those lines. Oh, did you say perspective of an American? Apologies, fair point." After saying that, most Americans do generalize all countries in Europe together, as you guys probably generalize all states together. It's cool, it's hard to see things as the intricate, separate entities they are from far away. quote 36 of 45 top-3 finishers from 1996 to 2010 were doing it So whilst the majority, it's not even close to a 'tiny minority' of riders weren't. And notice that's just top 3, who're probably placed where they are because they doped. Behind them will likely be a whole raft of clean cyclists denied their chance of a fair race. I'd appreciate if you could find the figures of everyone else. The only experience I have about doping in sports is baseball's steroid era. And while some people didn't most did, so I'm using that as a measuring stick, in conjunction with the things I've read. ------------------- really cool free game
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person_47 I am not a cat threadnought total posts: 651 since: Nov 2012	Jan 18, 13 at 4:29pm ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	quote Sweeney surely he didn't actually compete while he had cancer? It had regressed, he was still on prescribed steroids to keep it in remission and it was a banned substance.
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Irish Gamer FYI this place is a toilet Legendary Seeker total posts: 15477 since: Feb 2003	Jan 18, 13 at 4:42pm ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	Did he apologise to Paul Kimmage? ------------------- Don't ever let anyone tell you you deserve that...
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Lesley Pro_04 #prayforboston (moderator) (neocrs) NeoWiki Best Practices and Help NeoWiki Community and Strategy NeoWiki Discussion, Suggestions and Feedback NeoWiki Requests and Planning Sports wiki super pokemon total posts: 9100 neopoints: 24356 GameGrep pts: 254 since: Jun 2004	Jan 18, 13 at 4:57pm ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	quote Irish Gamer Did he apologise to Paul Kimmage? As far as I'm aware, no, but Paul Kimmage did say that Lance Armstrong Should Be in Jail That would sound about right. Think of all those lawsuits that Lance Armstrong won over the years that we're now finding out were based on lies by the Plaintiff [Lance Armstrong]. I think it's time for the tables to turn and for the Defendants from each case to band together and file a Class-Action lawsuit against Lance Armstrong, to take back what is rightfully theirs, and ruin the life of the man that had ruined theirs. ------------------- Proving the misperceptions of Asperger's Syndrome wrong to people since 1985, and will continue to do so as long as I live. And I NEVER give up OR quit when I'm faced with adversity!
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DjedwardSmith Victoria Per Deditionem Purely Neo total posts: 26952 since: Feb 2003	Jan 18, 13 at 5:16pm ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	quote Demonfurby I was referring to the continuous bringing up of the 'butthurt' comment. So entirely glossing over your original comment suggesting we were all suggesting he was Satan? quote No, but I don't know the scope of the personal impact of the journalist stuff. It's huge. Imagine trying to get stories published about Armstrong, or even other dopers, when he's successfully sued and won substantial damages when previous stories have been written. Then there's the verbal abuse from Armstrong himself, the power he had within the tour was top to bottom, if he made it clear he disliked somebody then it usually followed that access for said journalist was revoked, personal attacks and remarks were made and they were essentially hung out to dry. Pretty tough thing to take when all you're trying to do is report, these are average people on relatively averages wages, they're not millionaires who can afford not to worry about pay cheques. quote I don't know about all of them, but his named teammates that have come forth aren't to bad off. Teammates on the most successful team eve Not saying it's alright but my sympathies only go so far. The media, yeah. The people he boxed out of the sport, yeah. Relatively wealthy professional athletes, no. I'm not suggesting you should have sympathy for athletes like Landis who openly cheated and only wanted to snitch on Armstrong when caught themselves, I'm on about legitimate athletes who lost out on the opportunities to compete at the top level (either in his team or at the front of the Tour) because they outright refused to dope. quote quote Really You don't see the problem in what is now regarded as a clean sport having a stigma attatched to it that everyone is a cheat in one of it's biggest markets? Without Armstrong America isn't a big market for cycling. At all. The only reason it was big was because of Armstrong. There are too many sports here for it to compete. Americans don't care about any kind of racing other than Nascar at large. Which is my point. With Armstrong, America is a huge untapped source of revenue for cycling as a whole. Therefore, can you see the issue with their only exposure to the sport being this monumental cover up of doping and cheating? quote Yep a very very large amount of people gave him a relatively small amount of money per person. But I was refering to you saying emotionally invested. Whatever amount of emotion they invested with him (other than the people affected by cancer, but I addressed that) was at a superficial level. People go "What a cheat, can't believe I bought a wristband." and move on. You're acting as if people are scarred over what happened and they aren't. Until you find an instance of someone who is it's ridiculous to assume they are. But you're saying that from a position which you're unable to do so from. As am I, and anybody else commenting unless they themselves have an emotional involvement. I'm not acting as if people are scarred all over, I'm suggesting it's a possibility. Which it is. I'm not stating it does happen as I know I can't prove it. But you're suggesting it doesn't happen, which you can't really prove either. It is not ridiculous to assume it may have an effect on people, you'd be surprised at how emotionally attatched people get to their sports heroes etc. quote And again, find me someone who is and we'll talk. If you're desperate for just one example; Me. If it wasn't for Lance Armstrong then Peter LeFleur never would have defeated Globo Gym, Dodgeball wouldn't have had a happy ending and I never would have enjoyed one of my favourite films multiple times over; my life would be entirely different, I'd probably end up quoting some weird My Little Pony. But srs, you want one example? quote I can't believe corporate America and sponsors are still giving this fraud money. I was suckered into buying the yellow brackets and even donated to his foundation. Wonder will he return all the contributions and sponsorship money giving to him? I surely would like mine back. - chic1 , Arlington, United States, 13/10/2012 01:25 quote You're giving me a lesson about generalizing? Didn't you suggest all Americans are stupid last page? Sarcasm tags clearly needed. [q]After saying that, most Americans do generalize all countries in Europe together, as you guys probably generalize all states together. It's cool, it's hard to see things as the intricate, separate entities they are from far away. Although that's not exactly a fair comparison, is it? International competitions are country vs country hence not being grouped together as a continent. It would be more like UK vs Washington, for example. quote I'd appreciate if you could find the figures of everyone else. The only experience I have about doping in sports is baseball's steroid era. And while some people didn't most did, so I'm using that as a measuring stick, in conjunction with the things I've read. [/quote] There aren't figures for everyone else, I looked. But in terms of failed tests (the only real barometer you can use to gauge the depth of the problem), it still isn't close to being a majority of riders. ------------------- quote Arsene Wenger There's not as much talent as money today in football.
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Demonfurby master of karate and friendship NeoXtreme since: Dec 2005	Jan 18, 13 at 5:57pm ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	quote DjedwardSmith So entirely glossing over your original comment suggesting we were all suggesting he was Satan? It was hyperbole. Thought it was obvious. The point was that you and others were acting as if he an absolute evil.No matter how many shitty things he's done, he's still done good, even if the means were wrong. That's what I meant with that comment. quote I'm not suggesting you should have sympathy for athletes like Landis who openly cheated and only wanted to snitch on Armstrong when caught themselves, I'm on about legitimate athletes who lost out on the opportunities to compete at the top level (either in his team or at the front of the Tour) because they outright refused to dope. Agree quote Which is my point. With Armstrong, America is a huge untapped source of revenue for cycling as a whole. Therefore, can you see the issue with their only exposure to the sport being this monumental cover up of doping and cheating? Except even if he didn't get caught for the rest of his life the chances of the sport catching on after he was gone is incredibly slim. There are too many sports competing for them to get a small fraction of their revenue from other places. The only reason most people cared about cycling was Armstrong, and he couldn't stay around forever. I mean, when Michael Jordan retired from basketball the sport took a hit because a lot of people only watched for him. And that's an American sport. Cycling would stand no chance. quote But you're saying that from a position which you're unable to do so from. As am I, and anybody else commenting unless they themselves have an emotional involvement. I'm not acting as if people are scarred all over, I'm suggesting it's a possibility. Which it is. I'm not stating it does happen as I know I can't prove it. But you're suggesting it doesn't happen, which you can't really prove either. It is not ridiculous to assume it may have an effect on people, you'd be surprised at how emotionally attatched people get to their sports heroes etc. But like I said before, those people have some other problems no matter who they attach to. I think the fact that it's Armstrong in particular is kind of arbitrary. Not completely because I understand how one could become more attached to him because of what he stood for. I remember as a kid Barry Bonds was my favorite baseball player and when I was broke the news he cheated I was disappointed. I got over it and as I grew I understood the context of everything more, but if a child can get over a hero's fall (and children romanticize things much more than adults do), then an adult should be able to. If they can't, then they obviously aren't too well off. quote If it wasn't for Lance Armstrong then Peter LeFleur never would have defeated Globo Gym, Dodgeball wouldn't have had a happy ending and I never would have enjoyed one of my favourite films multiple times over; my life would be entirely different, I'd probably end up quoting some weird My Little Pony. i lold. Good job quote But srs, you want one example? quote I can't believe corporate America and sponsors are still giving this fraud money. I was suckered into buying the yellow brackets and even donated to his foundation. Wonder will he return all the contributions and sponsorship money giving to him? I surely would like mine back. - chic1 , Arlington, United States, 13/10/2012 01:25 That guy sounds like a guy who's just mad and will get over it. Like pretty much most people who gave money to him or the cause. But even if your Dodgeball example was true then a person like that would be pretty bleeped to begin with. I don't know how much Lance Armstrong in particular would have on quote Sarcasm tags clearly needed. Sarcasm doesn't really work too well in (fairly) serious arguments. Unless its like above and you just state it. quote Although that's not exactly a fair comparison, is it? International competitions are country vs country hence not being grouped together as a continent. It would be more like UK vs Washington, for example. They still work together to an extent, moreso than any other group of allies like US and UK, don't they?(legit question) But still, the point was that stateside most states have rivalries, different cultures, laws etc. Even moreso with individual cities which I'm sure you could understand more. But I'm sure many Europeans group them all together and generalize. ------------------- really cool free game
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DjedwardSmith Victoria Per Deditionem Purely Neo total posts: 26952 since: Feb 2003	Jan 18, 13 at 6:11pm ^ re: USADA Files Doping Charges Against Lance Armstrong
	quote Demonfurby It was hyperbole. Thought it was obvious. The point was that you and others were acting as if he an absolute evil.No matter how many shitty things he's done, he's still done good, even if the means were wrong. That's what I meant with that comment. But nobody the good that LiveStrong has done. And he wasn't being made out to be an absolute evil, but we were all presenting the counter arguments against the people on previous pages who essentially wrote of that he'd done anything wrong. quote Except even if he didn't get caught for the rest of his life the chances of the sport catching on after he was gone is incredibly slim. There are too many sports competing for them to get a small fraction of their revenue from other places. The only reason most people cared about cycling was Armstrong, and he couldn't stay around forever. I mean, when Michael Jordan retired from basketball the sport took a hit because a lot of people only watched for him. And that's an American sport. Cycling would stand no chance. We're not talking about it being a mainstream sport of even a watchable sport. The sheer size of the US means that even if it saw a 1% increase in participation (a key feature of cycling, especially with fitness/obesity issues on the rise) then the figures would be huge for the sport as a whole. Kids are/were far more likely to take up competitive cycling, or even start biking for fitness, if they saw a healthy hero doing it on tv or in the media. If they then only associate it with cheating, then it ruins that opportunity somewhat. quote That guy sounds like a guy who's just mad and will get over it. Like pretty much most people who gave money to him or the cause. Original point wasn't about getting over it though, it was about it having an emotional effect on them (ala your Barry Bonds example, it effected you at the time). quote Sarcasm doesn't really work too well in (fairly) serious arguments. Unless its like above and you just state it. Tbf it's hard to take this debate serious given I enterred it reading some of the tripe on previous pages. Obvs the barbs aren't aimed at you but rather the mongs who strangely are keeping quiet once serious discussions are taking place. quote They still work together to an extent, moreso than any other group of allies like US and UK, don't they?(legit question) Depends how we're talking, in sport it's literaly a sport by sport case. quote But still, the point was that stateside most states have rivalries, different cultures, laws etc. Even moreso with individual cities which I'm sure you could understand more. But I'm sure many Europeans group them all together and generalize. Only because the rivalries etc... that you speak of are unknown outside of the US. I watch a bit of US sport and off the top of my head genuinely couldn't tell you any state vs state rivalries. Yet worldwide I'd wager that it's fairly common knowledge that England and Germany are 'rivals', but they still get grouped together as Europe. Just think on the latter point it's a country by country thing to consider, and originally it was a naive us vs them mentality to lump us together. ------------------- quote Arsene Wenger There's not as much talent as money today in football.
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