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person_47 I am not a cat threadnought total posts: 652 since: Nov 2012	Jan 12, 13 at 8:39pm ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	Log in to remove this sponsored message quote Paranoid Android Even though you're skipping over the smoker's perspective in why they smoke and how it isn't exactly "pointless and stupid" for them. Then again, what would I expect from a nonsmoker? I don't know about you but when I smoked I knew it was a stupid decision. Most smokers agree I think. Also, that last sentence is kind of ignorant isn't it? Generalizations like that are never a credit to your intelligence. quote Then you may as well not date cell phone users or diet soda drinkers as they both can cause cancer. Someone here is good at sensing exaggeration. It's hard not to wish you my sympathies at this point. Kind of a stretch isn't it? Comparing the carcinogens in a cell phone to a cigarette? Yeah someone is good at exaggeration here and it is you. quote False. Cite your information or don't say it at all. WHO/CDC data concluded that smoking is merely a risk factor for lung cancer, but does not cause it. Not even a 50% chance. It's closer to <10%, while a nonsmoker is situated at around 1%. A 9% difference is not "massive", as you put it. Furthermore, lung cancer is responsible for around 2% of all global deaths. I recommend you dig your head into some facts rather than media-born bullshit. I don't think he said that it was a cause... I read that as "massively increase the risk of..." and I think every medical health professional in the world agrees with that statement. You are selectively using stats here. Comparing smoking to AIDS in some third world African country hardly is realistic. Global surveys of cause of death are not relevant in the least in determining a cigarettes cancer causing ability, that is just a ridiculously unrealistic thing to do. Estimated 28% of deaths in Canada are related to smoking. Not a massive risk? Give me a break. 28% is massive to me.
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Paranoid Android Der Erlkönig s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1667 since: Oct 2010	Jan 12, 13 at 9:18pm ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	quote person_47 quote Paranoid Android Even though you're skipping over the smoker's perspective in why they smoke and how it isn't exactly "pointless and stupid" for them. Then again, what would I expect from a nonsmoker? I don't know about you but when I smoked I knew it was a stupid decision. Most smokers agree I think. Also, that last sentence is kind of ignorant isn't it? Generalizations like that are never a credit to your intelligence. Your proved my point. "I don't know about you but when I smoked"... each person is different. Some enjoy it, some don't. Each has their reasons, or did the thought police infiltrate our minds? quote person_47 quote Then you may as well not date cell phone users or diet soda drinkers as they both can cause cancer. Someone here is good at sensing exaggeration. It's hard not to wish you my sympathies at this point. Kind of a stretch isn't it? Comparing the carcinogens in a cell phone to a cigarette? Yeah someone is good at exaggeration here and it is you. It's startling how you're unable to root out points and instead focus on what's being said literally. Someone didn't excel in English, eh? quote person_47 I don't think he said that it was a cause... I read that as "massively increase the risk of..." and I think every medical health professional in the world agrees with that statement. You are selectively using stats here. Comparing smoking to AIDS in some third world African country hardly is realistic. Global surveys of cause of death are not relevant in the least in determining a cigarettes cancer causing ability, that is just a ridiculously unrealistic thing to do. Estimated 28% of deaths in Canada are related to smoking. Not a massive risk? Give me a break. 28% is massive to me. I don't recall saying he said it was the cause. Or did you happen to overlook the "A 9% difference is not "massive", as you put it" bit? I clearly targeted his misuse of words that were said boldly as if they were facts. But selectively using stats? Not even close, bud. I already gave you statistics of the amount of people in the world who died of lung cancer. As a matter of fact, you're a hypocrite. You said I was selectively using stats, then some lines after gave me death by lung cancer percentages of a single country. 2% of Earth's population died from lung cancer. ------------------- Dreams be the ashes, burns and thrashing in the wind Flying out the burning bush attached to sister's hand, who whispers *word* - Blue Scholars
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wildfire The Mourning Star (moderator) Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate wiki leader monsterhunter total posts: 1612 since: Aug 2011	Jan 12, 13 at 9:30pm ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	quote Paranoid Android Ergo, that is the reason why I said that you're selfish for believing that smoking is pointless and therefore stupid, for everyone. Even though you're skipping over the smoker's perspective in why they smoke and how it isn't exactly "pointless and stupid" for them. You missed the point entirely. quote Smoking is one that has no measurable benefit. It is entirely pointless. Therefore stupid. How do you measure derived pleasure from smoking a cigarette? You can't, it varies too much from person to person. What you can measure is the impact it has on a person's health and that's what he was getting at. In that respect it is entirely pointless it serves no real purpose. quote http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/ Cigarettes and Death Cigarette smoking causes about 1 of every 5 deaths in the United States each year.1,6 Cigarette smoking is estimated to cause the following:1 443,000 deaths annually (including deaths from secondhand smoke) 49,400 deaths per year from secondhand smoke exposure 269,655 deaths annually among men 173,940 deaths annually among women Cigarette use causes premature death: On average, adults who smoke cigarettes die 14 years earlier than nonsmokers.7 Based on current cigarette smoking patterns, an estimated 25 million Americans who are alive today will die prematurely from smoking-related illnesses, including 5 million people younger than 18 years of age.8 studies: 1. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5745a3.htm 7. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5114a2.htm 8. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047690.htm The one above is for america, the one below is statistics for the UK: quote http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/cancerstats/types/lung/smoking/lung-cancer-and-smoking-statistics#source6 Around 86% of lung cancer deaths in the UK are caused by tobacco smoking and, in addition, the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) states that tobacco smoking can also cause cancers of the following sites: upper aero-digestive tract (oral cavity, nasal cavity, nasal sinuses, pharynx, larynx and oesophagus), pancreas, stomach, liver, bladder, kidney, cervix, bowel, ovary (mucinous) and myeloid leukaemia. 6,7 Overall, tobacco smoking is estimated to be responsible for more than a quarter of cancer deaths in the UK, that is, around 43,000 deaths in 2009. 6 Tobacco smoke is estimated to have caused around 60,000 cases of cancer in the UK in 2010. 42 Studies: 6. http://www.ctsu.ox.ac.uk/~tobacco/index.htm 7. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=19891056 42. http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v105/n2s/abs/bjc2011475a.html If you can come up with a measurable benefit to smoking then I'd be glad to hear it. Smoking doesn't benefit the person as far as I can tell, but despite all that if people do it because 'it makes them feel good' I don't want any part in it. There's too much risk involved. I don't advocate the use of ANY drug though, nor have I ever partaken in the use thereof. ------------------- Read Retribution \| Monster hunter 3 U \| Thinker's Lounge
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magsasaka true seeker total posts: 1037 since: Jul 2009	Jan 12, 13 at 9:32pm ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	i wouldnt mind it but if i had the choice between her and her dopelganger that doesn't smoke, then i choose the non-smoker smokers cough andd spit a weird and terrible phlegm too often which is quite honestly BLEUCHGHHHH
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Paranoid Android Der Erlkönig s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1667 since: Oct 2010	Jan 12, 13 at 9:50pm ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	Kudos for death stats for individual countries, wildfire. Also never questioned general fatality rates in the U.S. Location is a factor but not when discussing the entire population, relevant to other ailments or not. With that said, I 100% agree with what you wrote. Measurable benefit is irrelevant to begin with when studies show that smoking kills, obviously. As what was stated numerous times, some people have their reasons to enjoy smoking. It's measurable for the individual. ------------------- Dreams be the ashes, burns and thrashing in the wind Flying out the burning bush attached to sister's hand, who whispers *word* - Blue Scholars
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Demonfurby a charm, a blade NeoXtreme since: Dec 2005	Jan 12, 13 at 9:57pm ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	Who the hell cares what the measurable benefit of smoking is? http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=4000 That money is invaluable to the economy. And that's just the direct impact of it. ------------------- really cool free game
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person_47 I am not a cat threadnought total posts: 652 since: Nov 2012	Jan 12, 13 at 10:00pm ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	quote Paranoid Android Your proved my point. "I don't know about you but when I smoked"... each person is different. Some enjoy it, some don't. Each has their reasons, or did the thought police infiltrate our minds? No, I was politely telling you that smoking is stupid and that if you don't know that as a smoker than you likely aren't too bright yourself. quote Paranoid Android It's startling how you're unable to root out points and instead focus on what's being said literally. Someone didn't excel in English, eh? Funny, considering I took a year of University with English as my primary major. Maybe you should just make points that are logical as opposed to making random assertions. I remember reading you write something along the lines of "if you don't cite it don't say it" show me a study showing cell phones beyond a doubt contribute at all to cancer. It wasn't that I didn't understand your point it was that you failed to make a good one. quote But selectively using stats? Not even close, bud. I already gave you statistics of the amount of people in the world who died of lung cancer. As a matter of fact, you're a hypocrite. You said I was selectively using stats, then some lines after gave me death by lung cancer percentages of a single country. 2% of Earth's population died from lung cancer. First off, bud, 80% of smoking deaths occur within the first world (developed countries) so using death statistics from second and third world countries wouldn't line up now would it? Secondly, Canada is a first world country and one of the largest tobacco producers in the world (see. countries relevant to this argument) and I don't think it's hypocritical to use it. Here's a tip: spend more time learning about what you're talking about and less time trying to belittle people and you'll simultaneously look like less of an idiot and less of an asshole.
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Paranoid Android Der Erlkönig s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1667 since: Oct 2010	Jan 12, 13 at 10:24pm ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	quote person_47 quote Paranoid Android Your proved my point. "I don't know about you but when I smoked"... each person is different. Some enjoy it, some don't. Each has their reasons, or did the thought police infiltrate our minds? No, I was politely telling you that smoking is stupid and that if you don't know that as a smoker than you likely aren't too bright yourself. quote person_47 quote Then you may as well not date cell phone users or diet soda drinkers as they both can cause cancer. Someone here is good at sensing exaggeration. It's hard not to wish you my sympathies at this point. Kind of a stretch isn't it? Comparing the carcinogens in a cell phone to a cigarette? Yeah someone is good at exaggeration here and it is you. quote It's startling how you're unable to root out points and instead focus on what's being said literally. Someone didn't excel in English, eh? quote person_47 Funny, considering I took a year of University with English as my primary major. Maybe you should just make points that are logical as opposed to making random assertions. I remember reading you write something along the lines of "if you don't cite it don't say it" show me a study showing cell phones beyond a doubt contribute at all to cancer. It wasn't that I didn't understand your point it was that you failed to make a good one. Perhaps you should return to university and have a sit down with your professors, as they undoubtedly did a poor job. It's not that my points were lacking, it's that you've shown that you're incapable of understanding a single thing that was said and proceeded to embrace irrelevance. I'm almost convinced that there's no argument with you. quote person_47 First off, bud, 80% of smoking deaths occur within the first world (developed countries) so using death statistics from second and third world countries wouldn't line up now would it? I know it's hard for you to reason things but give it a shot for once. Secondly, Canada is a first world country and one of the largest tobacco producers in the world (see. countries relevant to this argument) and I don't think it's hypocritical to use it. Class is irrelevant in this argument. For the fifth time, out of the entire documented population, CDC concluded 2% died from lung cancer. Not emphysema, not prostate cancer, but lung cancer. Why would you talk about a single country when what I asserted to D-G was the total amount? Your argument is that of a strawman's and contributed nothing. You wasted your time and thus deserve to be the recipient of asshole-like responses. Cry a river or actually argue in favor of the debate. ------------------- Dreams be the ashes, burns and thrashing in the wind Flying out the burning bush attached to sister's hand, who whispers *word* - Blue Scholars
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person_47 I am not a cat threadnought total posts: 652 since: Nov 2012	Jan 12, 13 at 10:56pm ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	First, I fail to see how this has anything to do with my education. English has to do with etymology, phrenology and grammar and nothing to do with understanding a point written by an undereducated (blame the Bush administration) high school student. Second, only an idiot would actually think class has nothing to do with it. Third world countries can't afford to smoke and also dont have them readily available to them (see. living in the f****** desert) so their death records obviously are going to project different things. 2% of the world isn't relevant when 80% of the world doesn't frigging smoke so they obviously won't be getting lung cancer through cigarettes will they? Third, you're a troll who's probably still in high school and likes to talk shit on the Internet so I'm not going to humor you anymore. I wasnt talking about your posts to me (which also have a sort of ignorant condescension to them but not enough intelligence for me to give a shit) I was actually talking about your conversation with D-G. I find it hard to believe that someone whos argument can disolve into calling someone an idiot on the intenet is intelligent. Kids like you make me want to shoot whoever runs the school system. Edit: you're certainly correct about me wasting my time though. I'm sure your teachers feel the same way. For your sake I hope you really are in high school because then it might not be too late for you.
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D-G BANG CruisiN' total posts: 22176 since: Mar 2003	Jan 13, 13 at 5:39am ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	quote Paranoid Android WHO/CDC data concluded that smoking is merely a risk factor for lung cancer, but does not cause it. Not even a 50% chance. It's closer to <10%, while a nonsmoker is situated at around 1%. A 9% difference is not "massive", as you put it. Depends how you look at it. 9% doesn't sound large. But the risk for a smoker getting lung cancer, using your statistics here... is (at maximum, assuming 10% risk) 1000% the risk of a non smoker. Sounds like a lot to me. Your argument is essentially that just because there are already risk factors, it's sensible to take more risks. I repeat my radioactivity example. Do you feel it is sensible to carry out some form of enjoyable or convenient activity involving radioactive waste? You're already exposed to low level radiation after all. And as for smoking being pointless, IT IS pointless. If you want nicotine you can take it in several ways. You can use one of those electronic inhaler "smokeless cigarettes". You can use a patch. You can even drink certain Japanese energy drinks that contain nicotine. As advertised by the governor of California, no less. How can you claim it's sensible to burn a carcinogenic tar filled smelly stick in your mouth when there are so many alternatives for taking your drug of choice that don't result in cancer? Even if you have a Freudian oral fixation as your reason for smoking the electronic cigarette should still fulfil that need. quote Shadow of Truth I know there are better alternatives for every reason I just mentioned, but I just find smoking the occasional cigarette and enjoyable way to relax and waste my time. I might look into patches though, since I could even wear those in class and in non-smoking restaurants. Well here's the thing I don't understand. How is the electronic smokeless cigarette less convenient? I don't know much about them but I would imagine they would be relatively simple to use. Plus no need to worry about setting anything on fire. Possibly no need to find a smoking area since you wouldn't be offending people with smoke. -------------------
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Arjy grab your coat, I've got a knife Still Seekin' total posts: 3687 since: Nov 2002	Jan 13, 13 at 5:52am ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	quote D-G quote Paranoid Android WHO/CDC data concluded that smoking is merely a risk factor for lung cancer, but does not cause it. Not even a 50% chance. It's closer to <10%, while a nonsmoker is situated at around 1%. A 9% difference is not "massive", as you put it. Depends how you look at it. 9% doesn't sound large. But the risk for a smoker getting lung cancer, using your statistics here... is (at maximum, assuming 10% risk) 1000% the risk of a non smoker. Sounds like a lot to me. That's an awful use of statistics! Use the most representative statistic for your situation. If an average person has 0.00001% chance of getting a hernia, but living under a bridge gives you a 0.001% chance, thats an increase of 10,000%. But obviously they're both still very small chances. It's an exaggeration of what you're using but the principle applies: if the overall probability looks small then don't switch to percentage increase to make it look way worse!
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D-G BANG CruisiN' total posts: 22176 since: Mar 2003	Jan 13, 13 at 6:51am ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	Arjy I'm not just "making it look worse". The chance might be small of getting cancer either way. But if you smoke it's relatively a lot more likely than if you don't. Let's just take another example, shall we? Imagine if you're told that if you walk through a certain alley as a short cut, you're 10 times more likely to get murdered on that particular day. Would you walk through there knowing this? -------------------
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Arjy grab your coat, I've got a knife Still Seekin' total posts: 3687 since: Nov 2002	Jan 13, 13 at 6:53am ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	quote D-G Arjy I'm not just "making it look worse". The chance might be small of getting cancer either way. But if you smoke it's relatively a lot more likely than if you don't. Let's just take another example, shall we? Imagine if you're told that if you walk through a certain alley as a short cut, you're 10 times more likely to get murdered on that particular day. Would you walk through there knowing this? That depends on what the actual probabilities are. If its 2% vs 20% then no I wouldn't. If its 0.00001% vs 0.0001% then I definitely would. Both have a factor of 10 difference but because of the actual numbers involved they mean vastly different things. Which is why "10x more likely" is a pretty bad statistic to use in cases such as these.
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D-G BANG CruisiN' total posts: 22176 since: Mar 2003	Jan 13, 13 at 6:56am ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	quote Arjy That depends on what the actual probabilities are. If its 2% vs 20% then no I wouldn't. If its 0.00001% vs 0.0001% then I definitely would. Right, but in terms of smoking it's something like 1% vs 10%. And worse if you count certain other risk factors that might be present. -------------------
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Arjy grab your coat, I've got a knife Still Seekin' total posts: 3687 since: Nov 2002	Jan 13, 13 at 7:00am ^ re: Would you date someone that smokes?
	quote D-G quote Arjy That depends on what the actual probabilities are. If its 2% vs 20% then no I wouldn't. If its 0.00001% vs 0.0001% then I definitely would. Right, but in terms of smoking it's something like 1% vs 10%. And worse if you count certain other risk factors that might be present. Yeah, that's my point, debate the 1% vs 10% because to use a "1000% more likely" metric is very very dodgy in most circumstances, since you yourself have acknowledged theres a vast difference between 1% vs 10% and 0.00001% vs 0.0001% despite the fact that they are both factors of 10.
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