Abortion - Page 14

Hahaha, you sound so desperate right now. If you wanted a debate with me, stick to something relevant. The first two parts of your first paragraph? I'm pretty sure I did target what you said... before you even said it.

quote KirbyHyrule

quote KR_1250

quote KirbyHyrule

Its killing something that would otherwise become a living human. Seems pretty clear to me.

So is having a wank. Ban it.

Not the same thing at all, since "having a wank" has 0 chance of ever becoming a life. However when a sperm and egg meet, that will eventually become a baby.

In no situation would having a "wank" ever result in a baby being born.

It takes sodium and chloride to form salt.

Lets say we had an unlimited supply of chloride. Would it be wasteful to pour out some chloride on the street, would that be preventing salt from being formed? Considering we have an essentially unlimited supply of chloride, I'd say not. Now lets say we threw out a compound of chloride and sodium in the making (if there is a such a process), that would be wasteful since it is preventing the salt from being formed.

It is astonishing how many people took that comment seriously. Simply astonishing.

He made an overly simpistic response. I responded in kind to show how useless comments like that are. Jesus. <-- Oh and BTW thats a figure of speach. i am not ACTUALLY asking teh lord jesus for help incase anyone wants to take that literaly.

quote WakeCraterWind

And as long as there is that possibility, no person deserves the right to take that away from them. Not even their own mother.

Based on what just out of curiosity?

And also i'd maybe say "potential life" with early pregnancy. If one attributes a ball of mucus in early pregnancy with a well developed fetus after say 20 weeks i feel we completely cheapen the kind of sanctity which i definately attribute to the developed fetus, but not to the ball of mucus.

There must be a disctinction made or we are in danger of sounding simply emotional, not factual.

quote WakeCraterWind

Based off the basic tenet that human life is precious, and the freedom to live it out is too. That's what that is based on. With abortion, you make someone else's decision for them.

What about abortions during the first initial phases? No human life is taken there.

quote

There is nothing factual about the dialogue that is started when we begin to define a human being. That's delving into philosophy, not science. No science will tell you what is the essence of a human, and what is but chemicals and hormones.

I dont agree with that. I think people who dont want to accept that we can define the begining of human life might say that. Its very obvious that a fully formed fetus and unconscious blob of DNA are not directly comparable in a scientific sence. The exact moment may be hard to define, but i dont think its impossible or a pholosophical problem. Using a buffer for redundancy some kind of widely acceptable moral cut off is surely achievable if we are all mature and honest about it.

quote

I'm religious and therefore a dualist by extension. I don't believe that the soul, or the essence of a human being, is tied to the current state of it's physical form, or that human beings are but complex machines, but I believe that in that potential of a fetus is a lifetime's worth of meaning that is has yet to come, and a fetus' future must be evaluated as well as it's admittedly limited present holistically.

Well, i wont argue with subjectivity. You are certainly welcome to that opinion. Sorry i wont go into that personally. Our opinions are too different here and for non theists it is not an important consideration. Also in a secular society (which i think most of us live in) you cannot legislate for all based on one perticular religious view.

quote

Would you say that murdering an infant is less evil than murdering an adult because the child is a less developed human? To the contrary, we usually see the infanticide as more evil because more potential of a human is wasted. Then how evil is wasting all of a human's potential?

Again you are equating children with what amounts to a ball of hormonal mucus. I dont think there is much conversational value in doing so. Forgive me for not indulging. I will leave the rhetorical part of the question to your imagination.
As i said i think the faliure to make a destinction cheapens the argument slightly and dont really want to go down that route.

I guess I see both sides of the abortion argument. There is something sacred (not holy) about human life and it should be protected even within the womb. But during the early stages I dont think it helps the situation any to attribute certain cherecteristics to the unformed entity. It just isnt very practical i dont think. I am not qualified to say when a baby develops a brain or when that brain develops a consciousness. But if that time can be properly defined i'd leave some room for manouvre and allow abortions before such a time but never after that.

Thats my take on it. I dont think sticking a coat hanger up every expectant mother regardless of term or simplistically equating a ball of slime with a new born is very helpful. I see both as quite simplistic and dishonest approaches to the issue designed to support predetermind agendas, not come to a sensible and widely acceptable approach to the issue. As usual in life there is a pain in the arse grey area we must explore and both sides should be as honest as possible about it. Are the two sides of this debate fundamentally unwilling to meet in the middle ?

Maybe you can help me through what i find the most interesting part of this, and its why people want to legislate for others. For me this is way more interesting than the debate itself. I have asked this question in varius forums and never had a decent answer.

Why do people want to legislate against others like this? Why not just avoid the issue yourself and let others live how they please? I mean no-one is persuing a policy of mandatory abortions.

quote KR_1250

Well, i wont argue with subjectivity. You are certainly welcome to that opinion. Sorry i wont go into that personally. Our opinions are too different here and for non theists it is not an important consideration. Also in a secular society (which i think most of us live in) you cannot legislate for all based on one perticular religious view.

It's a philosophical view, and by that logic, we can't legislate based off the view that life doesn't begin at conception. Non-theism, at its core, is still opinion, and must be taken into equal consideration as anyone else's. Note that Secular does not equal Atheist. The law does not assume no God no Spirits no Soul. It makes no judgment.

That's why abortion is a philosophical debate; because the definition of when a human life begins is imperative to frame the entire debate, so much so that it eclipses women's rights to the point that they aren't even a question, and there are multiple standards across the board. Sorry I can't tke a closer look at the rest of your post atm, this will have to do for now.

quote Tay Rex

Sure, if a tattoo causes nausea, bladder weakness, weight gain, bloating, constipation, varicose veins, fatigue, discomfort, sometimes depression, decreased libido and backache.

I'd go through that to let someone else live their life. If someone else's life was at stake, wouldn't you?

quote Tay Rex

But how dare you make the decision for others over what somebody else should do with their body and their entire future?

I'm sure you hate it when people make decisions for you that seriously affect your life. Don't assume you can do the same for others.

What I'm saying is that abortion is just that, making decisions for others, and the difference is, you decide the mother has to endure 9 months of discomfort while another person's entire life is at stake in the other case. I'm sure you can figure out which is the more impactful of the two. It sucks that women have to go through such pain and suffering for life, but how much more is lost in death?

quote KR_1250

Why do people want to legislate against others like this? Why not just avoid the issue yourself and let others live how they please? I mean no-one is persuing a policy of mandatory abortions.

Because I believe unnecessary abortion is silent murder. Therefore there are the victims to consider. Someone's right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness is being violated, therefore it must be protected. To protect one group's right to Life, another group's rights to liberty must be restricted. This is the case for ALL laws, ever. The pursuit of happiness of serial killers doesn't take precedence of the victim's rights to life, no? That's why. The key point here is to remember that fetuses, to people of my particular view, are humans and should be given the basic rights to life. If humans are being murdered, there isn't a lot of room to say, "oh, well we respect your opinion and would like to open a constructive dialogue." There isn't a lot of room for compromise when each concession is how many more thousands of lives never lived.

quote Tay Rex

It isn't just all that though. It's not just pregnancy. It's the lifetime sacrifice after that. I don't think I'd be giving up my education, my dreams and my ambitions because somebody else told me I had to because I wasn't allowed to choose what happened to me.

You aren't making a decision for others. It's cells. It's not a baby yet. If you removed it from the body, it couldn't even breath for itself. It isn't capable of conscious thought. I'll raise the issue again about IVF. How come you're okay with all of those 'babies' being thrown out and killed each year?

There. Is. Adoption. It is still life.


And I'm sorry women have to go through so much. I really am. But you have to understand how ridiculous it sounds to me when you say you don't want to give up all of this, or that, when you cheat the most precious thing of all, life, from the fetus right then and there. If your education and your dreams and your ambition are so precious to you, than you should take the steps to ensure that an unexpected pregnancy doesn't muck all that up. This means condoms and birth control pills.

This isn't undue burdens or anything unusual. It's literally the same as brushing your teeth or putting your seatbelt on before you drive.

And IVF? Yeah I have a problem with that if legitimately functional zygotes are just tossed. But fertilization doesn't work all of the time; I know that. Are you confusing that with functional zgotes?