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babywarthog greeting the universe gone postal since: Feb 2005	Jan 21, 07 at 4:44pm ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	Log in to remove this sponsored message quote Koloth It isn't contradictory. The Jews also view him as a prophet. The difference is neither they or the Muslims see him as the Messiah. One can be respected as scholar and prophet with out being the messiah. And keep in mind the Jews that had Jesus crucified did so because they felt he was a threat. The blasphemy comes about through the threat part. Because Jesus was calling for reforms in the Jewish synagoges. Many of those reforms have come to pass. Money changers no longer sit outside. Jesus never set out to create a new religion. His goal was religious reform. I don't want to get off topic here, but felt I should address this popular misconception. Muslims and Jews indeed do respect Jesus as a scholar and prophet, but choose not to accept his claims of being the son of God. This puts them into somewhat of a conundrum as Ragnorak hinted because on the one hand, they acknowledge that Jesus was a wise man and his words worth listening to, but on the other hand, they claim he was delusional when he refered to himself as the Messiah and the son of God. The difficulty one comes to then is in discerning between what one deems true and what one deems delusional and in the end, one cannot claim that he is all that respected as a prophet if his integrity and soundness of mind and in fact, his identity and basic claims are in question. As for the blasphemy he was accused of, it was indeed the claim he made to be one with God, to be the promised messiah. Though he did initiate some temple reforms, annoy religious leaders with his healing on the sabbath, and threaten their authority, this was not why he was ultimately killed. At the interrogation of Jesus before the high priest, the question that was asked was whether he claimed to be the Son of God and when he did not deny it, he was condemned to death for the blasphemy (see Matthew 26:63-66). -------------------
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Arcturus Relentless since: Mar 2002	Jan 21, 07 at 5:00pm ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	Another misconception you have made babywarthog. Muslims do not believe Jesus ever referred to himself as the Son of God. They believe his followers who wrote the Gospels loved him so much they deified him. A part of the reason why Muslims think the Bible has been tampered with. ------------------- HOW CAN SHE SLAP?!
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Sspider Evil is Powerful. But Courage Is Solid. Still Seekin' total posts: 3912 since: Feb 2003	Jan 21, 07 at 5:34pm ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	quote Infinite Gravity Sspider, You will think the same of YOUR religion. No I don't, and no I will not. George HW Bush conducted a justified operation in support of a political ally and sovereign nation, Kuwait, the latter of which was under attack by Saddam Hussain. The United States government makes no allegience to any particular religion, and does not justify its wars in such ways either. The simple fact that the Muslim terrorist world views that action as an invasion of the "holy land" and declares war of us simply because we do not ascribe to the same beliefs is the epitomy of intolerance. What would you say about Christians if they began declaring holy wars on Muslim immigrants to America? What if Christians and Catholics began cleansing the "holy lands" of Muslim heretics (After all, isn't that really what the Muslim terrorists are doing)? You would call them bigots, racists, intolerant religious zealots, terrorists, and hatemongers. ------------------- THUNDERCATS ARE GO!!!
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Arcturus Relentless since: Mar 2002	Jan 21, 07 at 5:37pm ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	quote Sspider Dark Magic, your argument that all religions are equally violent is absurd and cannot possibly hold up on its own. It's ridiculous to suggest that Muslims are not more prone to violence, statistically speaking, than Christians or Buddhists, for example. So unless I misunderstood you, I better start seeing some eye-opening and startling statistics about how many innocent civilians that have been targetted and killed in the name of Jesus Christ. (Bear in mind that I'm talking about modern times)[/size] I'm pretty sure you may have misunderstood something, my argument firstly is that all religions have an equal chance of having a violent following, not that they are equally violent. I clearly said that Islam is a motivator and not a motive more than once, and it doesn't get much simpler than that. Terrorists are convinced they are martyrs fighting people who seek to destroy Islam, and really they have no reason NOT to believe that. Remember, Hamas builds schools and hospitals, people trust them more than they do America or Israel, and they have more support. Al Qaeda fights for the same things, the only reason they attacked America was because America funds Israel. It all comes down to a conflict over property between Palestine and Israel, with someone down the line spinning it to make it seem like Jews want to destroy the Muslims. GIVEN that I've said that religion is NOT a motive, here are some examples. Bosnian Genocide: 200,000 killed by Orthodox Serbs (Christians claim they are being oppressed by Muslim majority, sound familiar?) quote Orthodox Christian Serbs in Kosovo were in the minority and claimed they were being mistreated by the Albanian Muslim majority. Serbian-backed political unrest in Kosovo eventually led to its loss of independence and domination by Milosevic. Rwandan Genocide: 800,000 killed by Catholic Hutu (those being tried and convicted are PRIESTS and NUNS) quote In 2001, two nuns were found guilty of taking part in the genocide in a Belgian court As you can see, in MODERN times, these conflicts with Christians killing many both have religious spin put onto them. One could even say they killed because of their religion, I could. However, I don't believe that any religion is inherently more violent than any other when they preach for the same God and the same prophets. Rwandan Priest + Nuns Bosnia I understand where you guys are coming from though, terrorism is all over the news with these labels of "Islamist" "muslim" etecetera. It really doesn't make any sense though, because the majority of the middle east is muslim, so any man, no matter his motives, is a MUSLIM terrorist. Are Islam his reasons? Probably not, but like any other devout man he seeks for justification in his religion, and just like any other man who really wants to find something, he is going to find it. Hell, there are devout christians who have justified blowing up abortion clinics in their religion. In India there is a Christian terrorist group seeking an independent state that killed 44 hindus and injured 118 more just in 2004. The IRA justifies it's attacks in it's religion. Do you see what I'm trying to get at here? And I agree, those Muslims are in the wrong with everything they do. HOWEVER, you are comparing an offbranch terrorist ideology of which at most there is a 1 million man dedicated following, to a following of 1.2 billion muslims. You CANNOT, and I repeat, CANNOT, call the remaining BILLION peaceful muslims inherently more violent, IT IS UNFAIR AND BIGOTED. ------------------- HOW CAN SHE SLAP?!
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Revolution brothers I spied a fine lady in bowerstone town just getting started! total posts: 126 since: Dec 2006	Jan 21, 07 at 7:39pm ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	quote Sspider quote Infinite Gravity Sspider, You will think the same of YOUR religion. No I don't, and no I will not. George HW Bush conducted a justified operation in support of a political ally and sovereign nation, Kuwait, the latter of which was under attack by Saddam Hussain. The United States government makes no allegience to any particular religion, and does not justify its wars in such ways either. The simple fact that the Muslim terrorist world views that action as an invasion of the "holy land" and declares war of us simply because we do not ascribe to the same beliefs is the epitomy of intolerance. What would you say about Christians if they began declaring holy wars on Muslim immigrants to America? What if Christians and Catholics began cleansing the "holy lands" of Muslim heretics (After all, isn't that really what the Muslim terrorists are doing)? You would call them bigots, racists, intolerant religious zealots, terrorists, and hatemongers. I really think you are being brainwashed by whatever media or source your looking up to. Also, why would George Bush infiltrate the holy lands after they warned him not to go there? That is callin upon war. They even gave him a fair waring! Now his son is paying the price; and maybe future, presidents will take this into account that people aren't afraid of the U.S.'s power and will fight back if provoked. You need to truly open your eyes and look at this war from both points of veiw. ------------------- sign my guess book, I'll make it worth your while...
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cornish_pasty Resident Neo total posts: 3188 since: Jan 2006	Jan 21, 07 at 9:16pm ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	American Airlines Flight 11 was the first plane used in the September 11th attacks. Wingdings arrangement is also "entirely random", although I doubt this is 100% true. Do you believe that the terrorists who suicide-bombed British and American troops in Iraq were Jews? Just because people from your religion are the perpetrators of crimes doesn't mean you, or your religion is in any way bad. Why would Jews have any motives to carry out such an attack? If you blamed Christians for the deaths of Muslims in the Crusades, I doubt anyone would attack you for it. EDIT: The post before me was deleted, I'm not a complete 'tard... This message was edited by cornish_pasty on Jan 22 2007.
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Revolution brothers I spied a fine lady in bowerstone town just getting started! total posts: 126 since: Dec 2006	Jan 21, 07 at 11:49pm ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	Well, maybe Iran used the taliban as a distraction, and now they are making nuclear wepeons. If Iran attacks the U.S., the US will be fighting two wars which is very bad. The U.S. will have to devide its army and America will be taken advantaged by its enemies. In the end if that happens, the U.S. will lose. Thats how the Nazis were defeated, they split their army and fought to many wars at once. And too many people label other people here, thats very wrong. ------------------- sign my guess book, I'll make it worth your while...
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Arcturus Relentless since: Mar 2002	Jan 22, 07 at 1:12am ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	I'd also like to confirm Osama Bin Laden's motives for 9/11 were to liberate the Al-Aqsa mosque and the holy mosque in Mecca, and to remove all US presence from the Islamic world (The Middle East, remember, terrorists use their religion as motivation, not MOTIVE). Sounds like territorial issues to me, strictly political with a silky smooth religious finish to it. Since Infinite Gravity brought up the whole blame the jewish people thing, I thought I'd link you all to a conspiracy site I just found for a laugh or two. What Really Happened I thought I'd lighten the mood by bringing in something that myself, halo master and babywarthog could all agree is incorrect. A peace offering if you will? ------------------- HOW CAN SHE SLAP?!
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Sspider Evil is Powerful. But Courage Is Solid. Still Seekin' total posts: 3912 since: Feb 2003	Jan 22, 07 at 1:18am ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	quote Revolution brothers If Iran attacks the U.S., the US will be fighting two wars which is very bad. The U.S. will have to devide its army and America will be taken advantaged by its enemies. In the end if that happens, the U.S. will lose. Not likely. The Allies defeated both Germany and Japan, roughly simultaneously; and should Iran attack us, our allies most likely would come to our aid, and possibly even the UN (although that's doucheful--I mean, doubtful). Besides that, there are over 1 million US Armed Forces that are active and not in Iraq, not to mention over 1.2 million in reserve. Sure, the Chinese have us beat numerically, but we're not too worried about them right now. quote Revolution brothers I really think you are being brainwashed by whatever media or source your looking up to. Also, why would George Bush infiltrate the holy lands after they warned him not to go there? That is callin upon war. They even gave him a fair waring! Now his son is paying the price; and maybe future, presidents will take this into account that people aren't afraid of the U.S.'s power and will fight back if provoked. You need to truly open your eyes and look at this war from both points of veiw. That's not true; Saddam provoked a US response when he invaded Kuwait! Bush 41 didn't "infiltrate" anything; he blew the crap out of Saddam's invading army. I can't believe you're justifying terrorism. Listen to me: you are justifying terrorism. Who the HELL do you think you are? How can you possibly believe that 9/11 was justified? How can you possible believe that thousands of random New Yorkers deserved to die because the United States embraced Israel as a brother decades ago? What about the people in London? Madrid? What about the Jewish children around the world who are hated simply because they were born in a certain family of a certain lineage? How can you justify that and live with yourself? Just do me a favor, and tell me you're not an American citizen; it makes me sick imagining that an American is saying the things you're saying. ------------------- THUNDERCATS ARE GO!!!
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Revolution brothers I spied a fine lady in bowerstone town just getting started! total posts: 126 since: Dec 2006	Jan 22, 07 at 4:55am ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	quote That's not true; Saddam provoked a US response when he invaded Kuwait! Bush 41 didn't "infiltrate" anything; he blew the crap out of Saddam's invading army. I'm not talking about Iraq or Saddam. I feel like I shouldn't even bring up the countless civlilians the U.S. have killed in other countries over the decades. But, to help you open your eyes beyond what the US tells you, did you ever think of all of the innocent japanese (yes inocent)killed at Hiroshima? And still 50 years later their children suffered for something they had no part in, they were just born. Did the US talk much about the bombings of Germany were they also killed civilians of germany for perhaps, collateral? If you were in the same situation as the Germans you would have followed Hitlers cause I can bet by the way you are so deeply brainwashed. What about bombings over Afganistan pharmicitacal facilities? And just to let you know, I wasnt relieved when the innocents in New York were killed. I hope one day Osama gets caught so muslums dont have to be critisized by biased people like you. If I could, I would find Osama and say "Cmon, give it up already. Lets just find some idiot, drug him up, give him plastic surgery to look like Osama, give that guy to the US, then walk away with my money." Clearly, SSpider, you havent faced true reality yet. You live to comfortably and probably havent faced any hardships your whole life. You are part of a cattle that is told things that only helps them sleep at night. How would you feel the taliban overtoke parts of America and defacated parts where only Americans should go. How about they rape your mom too. Give you curfews and limit your civil rights. Americans did this to them and they couldnt take it. I'm trying to only open your eyes sspider. thats all. Your no better than the terrorists yourself! They were brainwashed and fanatisized and so were you. ------------------- sign my guess book, I'll make it worth your while...
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Arcturus Relentless since: Mar 2002	Jan 22, 07 at 5:02am ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	To be quite honest with you, I have no clue what you're saying. No land is for one religion only, there is no theological basis for forcing those who aren't muslim out of a land. All people are welcome everywhere. ------------------- HOW CAN SHE SLAP?!
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Koloth I travel the river of blood True Addiction total posts: 18978 since: Nov 2002	Jan 22, 07 at 5:39am ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	I can see this is becoming a very charged argument here. I would ask that everyone keep in mind the rules and stop lashing out at other members. All opinions are welcome in IE. But often times it is how an opinion is expressed that makes the most impact. Keep it civil. Or you could be joining Gaming Geezer in his extended ban. ------------------- Education Forum\|Books & Literature My Brute
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babywarthog greeting the universe gone postal since: Feb 2005	Jan 22, 07 at 5:09pm ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	quote Dark Magic Another misconception you have made babywarthog. Muslims do not believe Jesus ever referred to himself as the Son of God. They believe his followers who wrote the Gospels loved him so much they deified him. A part of the reason why Muslims think the Bible has been tampered with. Thank you for the correction - I admit that I am not an expert in Islam, though it in no way changes the point of what I said: that Muslims deny that Jesus was the Son of God. I hope you do not dismiss sources or label them unreliable just because they are difficult to grasp or inconvenient to your current way of thinking. Surely one would delve a bit deeper than that. -------------------
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M_N_M48060 I'm back and better than ever. Permanently Plugged In total posts: 13624 since: Jun 2004	Jan 22, 07 at 8:31pm ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	Why is that when Christians kill Muslims it's fighting for freedom, but when Muslims kill Christians it's terrorism?
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Revolution brothers I spied a fine lady in bowerstone town just getting started! total posts: 126 since: Dec 2006	Jan 22, 07 at 8:48pm ^ re: Islam (Thoughts and Misconceptions) 3
	quote To be quite honest with you, I have no clue what you're saying. No land is for one religion only, there is no theological basis for forcing those who aren't muslim out of a land. All people are welcome everywhere. I can see what you're saying here, but muslums have cities where only muslums should step. If you go there and your not muslum you must respect and follow every rule there. When George Bush sent troops to the holy lands he was being extremely disrespectful and it wouldnt make sense for muslums to have a base of operations there since they are majorly used for pilgramages and praying. If you were Catholic, how would you feel if some other country went to the Vatican City and took control of it? The U.S. soldiers there also assualted woman in these holy cities which is very disrespectful and wrog to anyone. I apologize for being arrogant and critisizing Sspider. ------------------- sign my guess book, I'll make it worth your while...
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