Abortion: should it be allowed? Thread # 3

She is misguided and angry. She doesn't even know what she is saying half of the time. It's a delusion called Christianity. She thinks she is high and mighty, but will resort to attacking babies and/or rape victims.

Those right to life organizations are the ones standing outside abortion clinics yelling "whore and slut" at the people who enter. Obviously she is deluded.

Halo, just because I do not think very highly of most humans, we've had this conversation before. The majority of humanity is content to be knuckle-dragging apes. I guess you forget your watch Jerry Springer quote. I do not think the people on that show give value to humanity, no I do not. If you do, well bully for you, my friend.

If you think Hitler or Susan Smith are bright spots on the annals of our species, well so be it, go ahead and defend them.

I know there are people who won't think highly of my daughters being mixed racially and if they decide not to be Christians. Anyone who thinks I am damned to hell, certainly doesn't place much value on my soul, let alone my life.

I am not being foolish at all. I know the value my daughters have for me, it doens't matter what others think. However, I would appreciate no further mention of them in this forum, and to me that seems just to be a decent thing to do. your hypothetical mention does not bother me, because you are general. Ivy's insinuation was that I was infecting them with evil, and other things of malicious hatred towards me, somehow relflected in my children. In her twisted mind, she somehow believes she is spreading love for them by spewing hateful things. Kind of like Susan Smith, she loves god too.

It is sad KngAlaric that you tried to share a happy moment with the forum with regards to your children and Mistress Ivy has chosen to use that to strengthen her weak arguments sorta lame IMO.

I personally don't agree with abortion, but I can see it's place in a free society. My opposition to abortion comes down to abusing the right. I've heard countless stories of teens and yes adults getting multiple abortions because they can't be responsible. It sorta takes away from the actual thought and accountability that should go into such a decision.

quote SilentScream2003

Yeah and actually the people who fight for certain issues like PETA, ALF, Right to Life, etc... are known for crimes like arson, burglary, vandalism which involves destruction of government and private property. Knowing their voices aren't very well heard they use violence. That whole thing is just full of hypocracy and corruption.

Ok, I support PETA but I never dream of using those crimes for my voice to be heard. People will notice what actions they do and they'll be taken account for that, when government doesn't realise what their doing, they can be more or less a bit p*ssed. The people who believe PETA way too much can commit these crimes of hatred.

Meh, anyway, back on topic to abortion. I don't think abortion should be prohibited but neither should it be freely used. It is hard to make that work but abortion should be the last option a woman can take. I've read from the previous thread that 2 people are involved in it, and yeah I knew that already, just saying again. I really do think that the man should take some responsibility for child raising, even the decision to abort or not to, but not the total decision since the woman is the main person it's affecting.

If it was a rapist then they should have absolutely no say in this. I doubt they were looking for a baby anyway, just some meaningless sex. God knows how many women he might of impregnated. What I'm trying to say is abortion should be allowed, but only to the minimum, too many people are past caring for the baby even if they DO have the money and the lifestyle to raise a good child in.

A baby can be seen as a treasure or a burden to people, there is no middle, thus making such a serious debate. The people who want no babies (who have used a contraceptive) but unfortunately got pregnant decide to take the abortion option when they could of raised the baby themselves are really selfish. Sure it'll change their life, but they would also change the life of the baby if it was to be born, it depends on if they actually give love to the baby or not. They are giving life. I actually don't mind abortions that are taken very early from pregnancy since the fetus cannot feel, remember anything. Only when the baby starts kicking, has a heartbeat, can feel do I find it cruel.

Kng, I agree with your thoughts that abortion cannot seen as cruel if they are near enough forced to take the action, but not forced by other people, but forced by their own free will. I think that abortion CANNOT be changed to illegal, people will still do it, but in even nastier situations. Take drugs for example, Class A drugs are illegal (I think...? Don't remember but it's drug abuse) and using them or making them are illegal, but people are still doing it. We are trying to clamp down on them, but if we try to clamp down on the abusive use of abortion then it could be used constructively.

Mistress Ivy, I agree on your thoughts that abortion is a sin to you. They might not see it that way, everyone has a different perspective to life and you cannot change it. it is wrong to take a soul, life from something that is not your own. Everyone deserves a life someway or another, but truthfully, I rather not have a life if it was to be a miserable one. We all have to lose our life someday, tomorrow, 5 years time. I guess you're trying to say that we should give a chance for a baby to experience living before it is shot down. Trouble is that even babies don't remember them, do you remember when you're a baby? I certainly do not. When a kid decides if he/she is having a good life or not, it's already too late for them to die and it's really hard to kill a child isn't it? So we have to make the decision for them, which is the difficult question. It's less painful when you take life away where the baby cannot feel the pain. And it's so much painful if you decide to abandon them since they WILL remember, they WILL feel, and they WILL be affected.

Whoa long post I've ever posted I guess. You two people should really chill out, it is a very serious topic, I see that, but come on. It is a mature thread and it is worthless to take in/give out these attacks. Your views are different, and of course they will conflict. Just try to control that. I'm sensing a lot of heat from the two sides even though you say you cannot care less.

(No smilies since this is a serious topic... damn Oh yay!)

quote Kng Alaric

(1) The creation of human life is not that special. (2) Some of you people think you know so much, especially you damned abhorent Christians with your false piety. You lack empathy... (3) Life is not so special. If it were we wouldn't be crowding up the planet like yeast suffocating in our own feces. (4) I do not believe human life has intrinsic value.

Besides the obvious contradiction here, I just want to remind you that either life does have value or it does not. Saying so is not committing the ''either or fallacy'' either because if you maintain that some lives are important while others are not, then the value becomes arbitrary. ''My white life is more valuable than that black life.'' OK?

So try harder to think things through first. You are going to have to at least find another way to argue whatever it is you are arguing.

Just now I think it would be fun to try to refute Ivy, if I have time.

This message was edited by halo master on Feb 11 2005.

I do not believe human life has intrinsic value. I believe the value of human life is what each individual human chooses to make of it. Some humans choose to make their life of little or no value. And no, knucklehead blind knuckledraggers do not have value. Do they have a potential value? Yes, I do believe that. However, potential value, intrinsic value, and human life being "special" are nto the same thing.

Humans are definitely not that great as a general rule, even Christianity teaches that.

And you're damn right I'll be intolerant of zealotry and Christianity in general as long as Christians retain their belief that I am going to hell. That is the very definition of intolerance. I do not have a miserable life, in fact i am way more content than you will ever be. You always have to feel guilty for everyhting you think and do. I love my life, I have a wonderful job that is the most rewarding thing I can think of. I have students who love me, lifelong friends that I have known forever, a wife who loves me, and now two new babies who are the light of my life. I own property and travel to foreign locales every year. I lack for nothing. I spend an inordinate amount of time in the mountains, not only climbing and hiking but giving back in many different forms of volunteerism.

Just because you are new here, I'll extend you this courtesy. I do not hate Christians, I include some of them as my very best friends, however none of them are so narrow minded as the many who have started frequenting here. Lily Flower (ahem... Mistress Ivy two). Maybe you should read forum rules before posting an incredibly long diatribe against me. You happen to be breaking them, newbie (if you are not Mistress Ivy signed in under a new screen name). Be careful with that, they'll ban you for good for circumventing a ban.

If I offend you, it is because you are narrowminded and shallow. You are blinded by nonsense, and that frustrates you to no end.

Just how would you know she can not defend herself anyway? Hmm. Go ahead report me, I'll report you back.

This isn't Christians R' us. That's down the street at your local mythology study.

So, if you please, let's take the discussion back to abortion. If we continue this train of dialogue, we will all get a ban.

This message was merged with other messages by Blackheartedwolf (moderator)

quote halo master

Silentscream calling me a fool for making a valid point about stretchy's argument, and offering a nice obviation? Sad. Why do you not try to argue or reason, rather than just call people fools, eh? Think a little bit.

i'm sorry, i didn't mean to direct it at you

I understand where you're coming from with this value-of-life thing. But let me ask you something good-Christian.
Imagine a 20-year-old Catholic girl. Grew up in a small town. Was a choir girl, always went to Mass on sundays, never turned away a human being or animal. She never drank a drop of liquor nor smoked a cigarette, never looked twice at drugs, never swore, never had sex, she's still not married. She's never kissed a boy, or a girl in the bathroom God forbid. She has got straight As & always lived by the Gospel. And why should she, a non-violent but defenceless girl be mugged & raped by some sicko who got away with it? Why did she deserve that?

And it gets even worse. Why should she have to bear a child, that child of a complete stranger & suffer when she had done nothing wrong? But consider a young boy, with the world ahead of him, every chance for him to excel in the world, but in a terrible accident, also not his fault, he is paralysed below the neck. He can barely enjoy life now but doctor's say he may die without the healing capabilities of stemcell research. If this girl sacrifices that life for another Christian's life, then that would be the truly Christian thing to do.

I support stemcell research, provided they don't clone animals (especially not humans) & the abortion was done because of rape or incest. But if the girl is one of these typical "OC""Desperate Houswives" Teen sluts, whatever you want to call her. If she goes around having sex with every fella then it's her own fault & she can't just cut off the life like that. It's her own fault & it's her responsibility then. There are certain circumstances underwhich abortion is all right, mainly for stemcell research. Hah, top that American evangelists?
What reply do you have for that? What George Bush is compatant? PSYCHE!