Religion and Does God Exist ^5 - Page 2

God created Adam and Eve, they had Cain and Abel. Cain slew Abel,

quote Genesis 4:16-17

And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

Who is his wife, or did he travel back and forth from Nod to *bleep* Eve every night? Or did god have another creation in the next county? Where did all the people come from to fill the city of Enoch? At this point in time - there were only three people in existance according to the Bible.

Are you going to tell me to not take this literally?????

What does that say for the entire creation story?????

I can even answer that - it is mythology, not the word of god.

How about this

quote Genesis 6:19-20

And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground according to its kind, two of every sort shall come in to you, to keep them alive.

and this a few verses later:

quote Genesis 7:2-3

Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate; and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate; and seven pairs of the birds of the air also, male and female, to keep their kind alive upon the face of all the earth.

Which is it, seven or all? Doesn't god know the difference between seven and every animal? Or isn't it likely showing you it's borrowed mythological origins from Babylonian mythos and the Epic of Gilgamesh, and not the word of God?

Or would you rather I look for errors in the New Testament, because I could show you errors from the Old all day long. Let's try the gospels:

quote Matthew 27:9-10

Then was fulfilled what has been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price has been said by some of the sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me."

The problem here is that this prophecy doesn't come from Jeremiah, it comes from Zechariah.

quote Zechariah 11:12-13

And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter...

Look it up if you don't believe me, even the gospel of the lord makes mistakes. What isn't up for doubt if god can't even get the holiest of books right?

Or how about the death of Judas - the same book of Matthew tells us

quote Matthew 27:5

So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

Yet, the Acts of the Apostles tell us this:

quote Acts 1:18

With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.

Which is it? Or did Saul of Tarsus not hear the story of Judas's death, because he wasn't there? Hmmmm.... Written by God, written by man.... No errors in the bible, hmmmm.

Shall I continue?

Yes - and I am going to stop quoting, because it is a pain - I'll just seperate with a paragraph.

II Kings 24:8
Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became King and he reigned three months in Jerusalem
II Chronicles 36:9
Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem.

Which was it?

II Kings 8:26
Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem.
II Chronicles 22:2
Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem.

Which was it?

II Samuel 10:18
And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the Syrians the men of seven hundred chariots, and forty thousand horsemen...
I Chronicles 19:18
And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians the men of seven thousand chariots, and forty thousand footsoldiers...

Which was it? One of these texts is lying and is historically innacurate? Which one is the exaggeration? I could go on, because there are many errors of this type in the bible. If I am counting on this perfect god to save me, I sure wish he could have proofread his own book.

How about Astronomy?

I Chronicles 16:30
Yea, the world stands firm never to be moved.
Psalms 93:1 & Psalms 96:10
Yea, the world is established, it shall never be moved.
Psalms 104:5
You did set the earth on its foundation, so it shall never be shaken.

or

Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Ai'jalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies.

I know someone will say - well that means the Earth stood still, but that is not what it says. If we are not meant to take the bible literally here, during a miracle, where are we meant to take it or other miracles literally?

These verses obviously come from a primitive tribe that had no knowledge of science and believe the earth was the center of a fixed universe, there are many other examples, even ones about the flat earth, but I think this should suffice for now.

How about taxonomy?

Leviticus 11:20-23
All winged insects that go upon all fours are an abomination to you. Yet among the winged insects that go on all fours you may eat those who have legs on their feet, with which to leap on the earth. Of them you may eat: the locust according to it's kind, the cricket according to its kind, and the grasshopper according to its kind. But all other winged insects which have four feet are an abomination to you.

Since when do insects have only four legs? Maybe this was during a different creation, or in the promised land, insects are different.

Let's take a look at Biblical mathematics, shall we?

I Kings 7:23 or in (II Chronicles 4:2)
Then he made the molten sea; it was round, ten cubits from brim to brim, and five cubits high. A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely.

Let's calculate Pi shall we? 30 (circumference) divided by 10 (diameter) equals 3. Go tell your math teacher that the Bible equates Pi as 3, so just like you can't learn evol(evil)ution, you refuse to calculate the area of a circle or the volume of a sphere using 3.14. It is biblically inaccurate.

Here are some other ancient calculations as to the value of Pi:

1650 BCE Egyptian: Ahmes Papyrus 3.16049
1600 BCE Babylonian: Susa Tablet 3.125
800-500 BCE Indian: Sulbasutras 3.09
550 BCE Hebrew: I Kings 7:23-26 3.0
250 BCE Greek: Archimedes 3.14163

God's chosen people must have been chosen for mythology, because they weren't chosen for their math skills.

Let's take a look at their counting skills:

I Chronicles 3:22
The sons of Shemaiah: Huttush, Igal, Bariah, Neriah, and Shaphat, six.

I don't know about you, but I only count five, maybe god has a learning disability.

Joshua 15:33-36
And in the lowland, Eshtaol, Zorah, Ashnah, Zanoah, Engannim, Tappuah, Enam, Jarmuth, Adullam, Socoh, Azekah, Shaaraim, Adithaim, Gederah, Gederothaim: fourteen cities with their villages.

Count them, how many do you see, or Where's Waldo?

How about simple addition:

In Numbers 3: 21 The clan of Gershon is counted as 7,500. In Numbers 3:27-28 The clan of Kohath is counted at 8,600. In Numbers 3:33-34 The clan of Merari is counted at 6,200.

Add it up, what do you get? What do you think the book of Numbers gets?

Numbers 3:39
The total number of Levites counted at the LORD's command by Moses and Aaron according to their clans, including every male a month old or more, was 22,000.

I guess God didn't command them to count or add accurately. If rounding down is good enough for god, so shall it be for your math teacher - tell them from now on you will round up or down at your own discretion, and you will be right.

Ezra 1:7-11
Moreover, King Cyrus brought out the articles belonging to the temple of the LORD , which Nebuchadnezzar had carried away from Jerusalem and had placed in the temple of his god. Cyrus king of Persia had them brought by Mithredath the treasurer, who counted them out to Sheshbazzar the prince of Judah. This was the inventory:
gold dishes 30
silver dishes 1,000
silver pans 29
gold bowls 30
matching silver bowls 410
other articles 1,000
In all, there were 5,400 articles of gold and of silver. Sheshbazzar brought all these along when the exiles came up from Babylon to Jerusalem.

Do the math.

Please stop saying the Bible doesn't contains mistakes. I will be forced to start playing rough. You are going to have to come up with better explanations to defend your faith, than the Bible is perfect and the Bible says so.

Halo,

I know you don't believe the Bible is error-free, but many people do - especially those on this website. And, yes I do enjoy my life being able to doubt, being able to question and being unafraid. But I doubt I would enjoy eternity gnashing my teeth, if my gift from god is my damnation. That doesn't seem very just.

I wasn't saying the Greeks in the Golden Age were atheists, I said they didn't believe in the gods (plural) if they were educated, and they didn't. I was drawing an analogy between today and then. People have figured out that their religions were false and erroneous since the beginning of time. What makes us so special as to have the "right" religion, especially one that came from a preliterate era. If one wants to know how the truth is strecthed even today in instant media, look no further than the daily news. Imagine what 50+ years of storytelling did for the Gospel of John.

About the "sheep" comment. My comment was aimed at the ignorant, Halo. Most followers of religion (I mean the majority of people, many whom do not presume to think, but presume to know) are ignorant peoples. Ignorant of other ways of life, other paths, other religions, and ignorant enough to be proud of it, even if only on a small level.

Look at it this way, think of the members of your church. Imagine they were born to Muslim parents in Oman. What religion would they be? Imagine they were born to Hindu parents in India, what religion would they be? Imagine they were born to Chinese Buddhist parents, what religion would they be? Hopefully, you'll see my point - If you answer me truthfully, I'd bet at least 70% of the people you thought of would not be Christians had they been born into a different ethnicity. People are followers, most are not thinkers like you or me, or anyone else who questions, be it on this site or otherwise.

As to plagerism, I do go to many sites for my information. I also go to my personal library which has a fairly extensive religion section. I thumb through my Bibles fairly regularly, but I also use an online compendium which I think I've linked before, but if not I will.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/
the best bible resource you will ever see.

If you would like to see a list of others I may visit, or have visited, I would be happy to link them. I realize I wrote a pretty long thread, but I shouldn't have to post a bibliography, even though I probably should.

Please remember that I have a very good memory, and once I have read something, I can find the information in the snap of a finger, and at times I can recall it precisely, so...

Short but sweet, and after this post I officially retire from this thread:

I believe there is a God because the very first thing to ever exist must have got there somehow. I'm talking before the big bang, before anything. Existence began somehow, and I believe the only force capable of starting it would be an all-powerful, eternal being.......like God.

Good bye and Good luck.

Well since CO has a tendancy to be rather confusing I shall attempt to clarify what I think he is saying.

Basically it comes down to people saying God must have been there to start everything but what was there to begin God. If God created the universe by initiating the big bang what was the initiate of God? He couldn't create himself because nothing can not create something. So then what came before God?

Although Issac Asimov created an interesting theory. It does however create an initiation paradox. He wrote a short story that I will attempt to summarize.

Basically man created a super computer then gave it the Task of stopping entropy or the slow destruction of the universe. After trillions of years the computer evolved into a consciousness along with man. So mankind left behind their bodies and became pure energy and so did the computer. After many trillions of more years all o mans energy converged with the computer making it more knowledgable. Once the last man joined with the computer it had the answer. However teh universe had already long ago ceased to exsist. So the computer with all of mans knowledge used all of its energy and created a new universe. In doing so it ceased to exsist itself and the process began a new. So basicaly Man created God.

An interesting theory. Though I will probably be labeled a heretic for stating it here. But it does give one something to think about. If God created the universe, entirely plausible, what created God?

quote Colonel Option

God would techinally have to break an absolute zero, where notihg was moving, nothing was going on. And I don't think that is possible. There are no absolutes, no extreemes, (in this regard), there could not be a "nothing", and then suddenely there was something. There is no end, and no beginning. Past/Future are not real, and present is only an illlusion.

And the idea that God was the first thing, the intial cause and effect, well, I say to that: You cannot say that God was the first cause, because every cause needs an effect.

Cuase and effect implies a chain or reactions, like a line. It seemes illogical to pick out a definite starting point.

I believe it is not possible to answer this question. If we look at the situation logically, there HAS to be a starting point, no matter what. Something had to cause the Big Bang. Something cannot come from nothing. The only way that would be is if there never was a begining. There has always been an existence. This is hard to comprehend, impossible, probably. I believe the only way for something to have always existed is for that something to be a diety, God. Remember, God can do anything. He has no limits. Therefore, He does things beyond our comprehension.

quote zipty_109

I believe it is not possible to answer this question. If we look at the situation logically, there HAS to be a starting point, no matter what. Something had to cause the Big Bang. Something cannot come from nothing. The only way that would be is if there never was a begining. There has always been an existence. This is hard to comprehend, impossible, probably. I believe the only way for something to have always existed is for that something to be a diety, God. Remember, God can do anything. He has no limits. Therefore, He does things beyond our comprehension.

There is nothing that I can argue. If you choose to believe that, that is you choice.

I find the idea that God just happened, and created everything as illogical as you find my idea about there not being a starting point.

And there really is no debate, only preferance. Only choice.


Our concept of time is one that I never really thought highly of, though. The whole linear perspective of past-present-future. I think it is flawed. None of them exist.

Present? When is that, now?
or now
or now
or now?

But by time you read all of that, its in the past. Future is just as irrelavent.

I believ that there is only the moment, the "present" mind. Very Zen, almost. Past is memories, and future is anticipation.

God being the start doesn't seem very logical, since he would have to come from nothing. And as in my previous post, I think that even breaks the laws of cause and effect themselves.

But Time discussion is really for another thread, but I thought I should state some of it, so that other may understand where I am coming from.

But that doesn't always happen...

Until next time.

Or perhaps God is more similar to us than we could ever comprehend. Says the heretic. Perhaps he has parents, goes to school or work or whatever. Then what you ask are we? Well perhaps our universe is a science experiment, who knows. Brings a whole new light to the seven days theory. Then you go up another level and there is a greater deity above even our God that created Gods universe.

It is however a difficult concept, as a being of minimal exsistance as we are, to understand always exsisting. Of course that would be the definition of an omnipresent God the Alpha and Omega. Always exsisting everywhere in every time no beginning or end. Rather mind boogling to creatures that are born and die.

Well, I'm not asking anything. This is all opinion.

If you choose to believe in that, then that is reliigon itself- believing in what you can't see. It's not that hard to differntiate: You have believers, non-believers, and those in between.

The whole base of my point, and those similar, is from what we personally experience/believe. Yes, I do not believe that another all powerful being works mysteriously above me. If I did, I wouldn't be saying all this now.

I'm not refusing anything, however, I am not accepting everything. If I followed what people toold me to do, I would be a good Christian boy who goes to church every Sunday, etc. Not that there is anything wrong with that by any means.

quote

you say there was never a beginning and we always existed...if you can believe that y cant you believe God always has...

That's the difference, thats the choice (Free-will, dare I utter those words). That can't be argued. That is a personal decision. Arguing weather or not it is possible to believe in a god is futile. It's like "The glass is 1/2 empty/full". You can say "both" to both questions, if you do it right.

I never once said this: I do not believe in god. I have said things like it,things that a normal believer would not say. But I did not say God does not and cannot exist. I am just expressing my own individual opinion.

quote

from what i've noticed from past is people get freaked out and scared when they have to acknowledge someone is higher then them whether it is police, the president, or any other authority you speak against it, and i would like to know why people do that but i already do,

I've noticed that people like to conform, too. Especially if they are insecure, and/or comfrtable with being depandant upon others.

I work very well with my superiors at school. I get along better with them than my so-called peers. (I've noticed how a lot of people need direction, need a leader, need a path. Many people cannot come up with these on their own). Often times it is much easier to conform to what others say than to be an individual. But, yes, it is natural to rebel, as well.

quote

i would like to know why people do that but i already do, it's human nature to rebel, we always have and always will, there is a scripture that explains alot of this:

I'm sure you can find something in the scriptures that counters everysingle thing that I say. The Scripture even says that anyone who doesn't agree with it is wrong. It's not a very openminded thing, is it? (Hell, it even contradicts itself every now and then)

Of course, the scriptures will always defend its religion. If it didn't then what purpose would it serve?
- - - - - - - -

Bottom line:
Believing in something that you do not understand, it seems a little foolish to me.

Then again, isn't that the definition of having faith?
But believing in something that you are not supposed to understand seems very foolish to me.


It just seems very dictator-like, saying "Yes, this is what you have to believe. You won't understand it, and your not supposed to. And anyone who doesn't agree with is- they are wrong"

That leads to my previous discussion about free will. Free will is obsolete, if there is only one thing t believe. Look at ^4.

This message was edited by Blackheartedwolf(moderator) on Feb 18 2004.