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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	Jul 12, 07 at 2:17am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	Log in to remove this advertisement quote The Supreme Extreme quote Carnivorous Sheep quote Downward Spiral 900,000... you have to be kidding if you think that is even close to the Iraqi civilian death total. I don't know where you found that number, but in the future you might want to stop looking at the anti-war activist websites. What, it's not like I only gave 900k. 40k-900k, you go find your midpoint... Even if it was 40k, it's still over 10 times the number of people who died in 9/11...which Iraq wasn't involved in... Not one of those American lives are worth any of those Iraqi lives. The fact that many Middle Easterners think that we do not value their lives is a main reason as to why they become terrorists. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	Jul 12, 07 at 3:01am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	A part of the radical Islamic doctrine is that Americans are the enemies of Islam and its followers, ergo, we do not value them. If we show that we care, then they will see that is wrong. After the Iraq fiasco, many people have become terrorists because they think we are the enemy. It is more than just religion. Islam does not say to destroy the United States. They hate us for the same reason many other countries do because the American government has often put its interest before international safety and convenience. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	Jul 12, 07 at 3:13am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	How many Muslims do you think would be so anxious about attacking America if they knew that we cared? Besides, anyone that bothers to think should know that killing 3000 Americans did nothing to spread Islam. Only radicals call murder spreading Islam. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	Jul 12, 07 at 4:26pm ^ re: Iraq ^4
	Yes, but truthfully, like any other nation of people they only attack when they have the incentive to do so. It's not like that the United States has done nothing to make them hate us. Why do they want to fight a world superpower when they could easily overthrow much smaller and weaker nations. Most of the hate from the radicals is not so much religious as it is historic. One thing is our alliance with Israel. Just because they are Muslims, it does not mean that are necessarily acting like robots with programming. I am not denying the influence of Islam, but I am saying that it is not the only major cause. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	Jul 12, 07 at 9:42pm ^ re: Iraq ^4
	quote Army_Man92 quote shadows eclipse Yes, but truthfully, like any other nation of people they only attack when they have the incentive to do so. It's not like that the United States has done nothing to make them hate us. Why do they want to fight a world superpower when they could easily overthrow much smaller and weaker nations. Because when they try to overthrow smaller nations we stop them from gaining power. We stop them because with the capturing of a country gives them power to pull more 9/11's. My reasoning for their hate is that the Islam religion wants to figuratively take over the world. Sadly for them, America has a say in that. I predict that if unstopped Islam will spread to epidemic proportions. Their goal is to take over the world. And that means killing all opposition in their path. If it weren't for America, Islam would have already taken over the cowardly Europe by now. Hmm...America saving Europe. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Al la WWII. Now what does this all do with Iraq? Well, if Muslims take control of nuclear weapons...Bye bye sanity. America almost never steps in when it should. Where was America when the Taliban took over Afghanistan? Why is America not saving Sudan from the Islamic militia that have caused massive genocide? Why did America put Saddam in power? You cannot guarantee that America will stop Islamic takeovers. Right now, the Bush administration has done nothing to stop radical Islam, if not expand it. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	Jul 13, 07 at 11:35am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	Army_Man, when the Taliban took initially took over, we did nothing. Years later, when 9/11 occurred, America decided to take out the Taliban and they did such an incomplete job. The Taliban are beginning to take control of the region again. I do not ever hear anyone saying that Iraq was a threat except when Bush wanted to get in Iraq. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	Jul 14, 07 at 2:57am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	Army_Man, everything that you have said about the purpose of the war in Iraq is known to not be true even by the American government. Where do you get off calling Europe cowardly? The Europeans fought valiantly against the Nazis, but bravery does not guarantee victory. You have confused both dominance and courage as equivalent terms. You call out your enemies so rashly. You see every Muslim as an enemy, it would seem. You you have the same attitude that Bush has. You think that wars can just be started and won whenever the U.S. feels like it. You show not the wisdom in diplomacy. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	Jan 23, 08 at 10:04pm ^ re: Iraq ^4
	Iraq is a mess. It does not have the ability to create nuclear weapons. It never did. The thing you saw about Iraq making nuclear weapons and destroying the world is a fake story. None of it is real. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 02, 08 at 12:30am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	I think they will keep their promises. They seem pretty adamant about ending the war, because otherwise, there is no end in sight. Honestly, I do not know why would stay there. The war is costing this country so much money. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 02, 08 at 1:00am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	As long as it take to get a new President, but I do not know if we can really measure it. Whoever takes up the Oval Office next will probably have to deal with things that they were not expecting. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 19, 09 at 8:16pm ^ re: Iraq ^4
	Dudeguy is right. We never should have been there; the backlashes of the War in Iraq are a product of our own choices, not those of the Iraqis. Sure, they have formed insurgencies and various militias, but that was only because we were there in the first place. Really, do you ask for honey, after you stuck your hand in the hive? -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 20, 09 at 12:39am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	Well, I am not saying that progress has not been made in Iraq. I am saying that all that has happened there was ultimately on our terms and not theirs. For that reason, whatever problem or consequence that might arise, we have to deal with it. When you invade a sovereign nation, that is the responsibility you must endure. The aftermath of the invasion for why I say this is not my defense, but rather, the initiation is and the principle behind it. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 20, 09 at 2:18am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	I agree; the Iraqi people need to build their own country. However, our uninvited presence does make that difficulty. With adherence to that ideal, that is why should have never been there. Building a democracy can only be done by the people, not an alien nation. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 23, 09 at 4:10am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	Plenty of people in the world beg for help from us or from anywhere. That does not mean it is our place to intervene militarily. War is not as simple as that, as I am sure you well know. The point stands that you cannot force people to be democratic without some backlash. It may be that we are unhappy with the war, but regardless of who wanted us there, there were plenty who did not and still do not now. What right did we ever have to become invaders? None whatsoever. Iraq's progress is tied to what its own people are willing to do. We can help them, yes, but they have to take their own fates into their own hands, and they never asked us to help them in this, and since we had much larger military priorities with al Qaeda and Afghanistan, it seems downright foolish to have deviated from our first mission as we did, which now has only created worse problems on the Afghan-Pakistani front. You should not have to thank me for doing what is expected of me, both from my title and in this forum. In all Curiae of debate, having standards is just normalcy. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 23, 09 at 6:33pm ^ re: Iraq ^4
	We had every reason to attack the Taliban, because they harbored the terrorists that committed 9/11. Iraq had not done anything to us. We had no reason to attack them. On the point of "invaders", it does sound bad, but that is what we are. No, we did not assimilate Iraq, but we did invade it, which means we stepped in without permission. Also, having bases is not invasive. Our military bases across the world are usually negotiated with the countries, with mutual consent given. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 23, 09 at 8:57pm ^ re: Iraq ^4
	Well, there are only two justifications for invasion. One, the invaded nation attacked you first. Two, the people of that country ask for it. Iraq did neither, so there is no justification to the invasion. Like it or not, we should have never once been in there, and for that reason, we are not entitled to any reparation for our actions. There are always protesters. Pro-lifers protest Roe v. Wade every day on the anniversary and other days. That does not mean the constitute a majority. Some decisions will never please the entire population. We can only live with that. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 23, 09 at 11:24pm ^ re: Iraq ^4
	Haha, and you pointed out that I am not informed how? All you did was allude to a completely different situation. Congratulations, you know about a war other than Iraq. quote Teadrinker The Kurds were being massacred en masse. In my opinion, a genocide is a good excuse for an invasion. Why do we not then intervene in every genocide, like in Darfur? Why do we only tend to go where we can exploit the resources? quote Teadrinker The invasion has helped a lot of Iraqi people, but at terrible cost of life and limb. Maybe in the future, Iraq will be a good place to live, because of the invasion. Its still to early to tell. I am not saying that the outcome will not be positive. I am saying that America was never justified in invading Iraq. They did not threaten us. They were not responsible for 9/11. Their regime had no connections with al Qaeda. There were no weapons of mass destruction. The majority of Iraqis never wanted us, and the majority still does not. What exactly makes the presence of American soldiers there proper? Also, if you want to talk genocide, the stuff the Taliban has done in Afghanistan and Pakistan is equally bad. They will murder anyone, not just ethnic minorities. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 23, 09 at 11:34pm ^ re: Iraq ^4
	I am completely aware of the our military strikes in Pakistan, but the circumstances in that battle are different than Iraq. Pakistan is part of the War on Terror. Iraq is its own war. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 23, 09 at 11:47pm ^ re: Iraq ^4
	Pakistan does not want the Taliban in their country, and they would prefer us over them. Also, the Taliban are tied to al Qaeda, and we should have finished them when we had the chance. It was a mistake to cut and run in Afghanistan. If we let the Taliban take over more of Pakistan, that is blood on our hands for not stopping them before and letting them escape. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 24, 09 at 12:36am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	quote iamjoe56 "Pakistan does not want the Taliban in their country, and they would prefer us over them." Big bleeping assumption right their. And a reasonable one at that. The Taliban's goal is to take over and created a backwards, medieval state of oppression, and they plan never to leave when they are there. Which would you choose: the permanent, bloodthirsty tyrants or the temporary though erroneous warders of the said tyrants? quote iamjoe56 Frankly, I'd really rather not try and take that one apart, it does it for itself. If Pakistan wants our help, they will ask for it, as we are actually on fairly friendly terms with them. These strikes aren't helping. You are basically saying, just because you don't like Iraq, we were wrong to go in. But we can just blast in the doors on Pakistan and go in guns blazing. What the bleep? You are the one making assumptions now. I simply see stark differences between the wars. Do I want us to go into Pakistan? No, I do not, but is it not our fault that the Taliban are there in the first place? Think about that instead of trying to dumb down the argument with evasive tactics of conveying me as some pompous bigot. That old trick really gets tiring after a while. People with real points and real arguments never resort to that. Anyway... While I hate that we have to go into Pakistan now, it is still a grudging necessity. Since you made the point about nuclear weapons earlier, do you want the same people who aided and abetted the perpetrators of 9/11 to be within any proximity of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal? quote Teadrinker Rome, Imagine you are in a school. You are being bullied by a kid, and he threatens to kill you. A guy you dont usually like comes along, smacks him ones and makes him leave you alone. Yeah, its none of his beef. But in my opinion, if your strong enough to do something about it, then do it. That analogy would work, if we were only liberating part of Iraq, which probably would have been even worse. Not everyone was being killed like that. Our actions saved victims, but it turned bystanders into victims as well. There is still no clear-cut justification for the War in Iraq. PM me for it. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 24, 09 at 2:31am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	quote iamjoe56 My Assumptions are reasonable ones. What I see in your post, is that because the government chose to go into Iraq, it was wrong, but if the government chooses to go into Pakistan, it will be ok. That is actually nowhere near my point. My point is that because we had no legitimate reason to invade Iraq, its invasion could not be justified. With Pakistan, there is at least room for argument that attacking the Taliban militia with Pakistan's borders would be justified. quote iamjoe56 Second, and of the same kind error. You make the point that it is our 'fault' that the Taliban entered Pakistan, and any blood shed by them, is on our hands. And we need to correct that. By that logic, Iraq War 2 was also needed, as we did not finish what we should have done in '91. That all depends on how you define the mission of the Gulf War. The mission in Afghanistan was to root out terrorism, and we failed that. The mission in the Gulf War was to protect Kuwait and disable Iraq militarily so that it could no longer threaten Kuwait or the Saudi oil fields. Would it have been nice to stop the slaughter of the Kurds? Yes, it would have, but every dictatorship causes some people to die horribly. Does that justify us putting others at risk? Maybe, maybe not. quote iamjoe56 Third, I see what you mean when you say we turned bystanders into victims. Our soldiers being attacked has, sadly, caused collateral damage. And yes, there is no clear cut excuse for Iraq, same for Afghanistan, and every war. War has no clear cut excuses, it simply happens. Nothing in this world can be 'clear cut'. Frankly, I find it rather foolish ot try and find clear cut excuses, solutions, or anything. It just isn't there. In the end, I think you can define a war as good or bad. World War II was ultimately the right war on our part, as the imperial dictatorships of the world threatened millions of lives and global democracy. Was it perfect? Of course not. China became Communist out of it, as did half of Europe. However, our goal was clear in that war: to stop the spread of totalitarianism as best we could, and we basically did that. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 24, 09 at 2:54am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	We do not know if he would have had them. All we know is that it could have happened. After the bulk of his military was destroyed, it may have been hard to be willing to get weapons that will likely get you invaded and overthrown. "If" statements are not really good enough to launch a full-scale assault. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 24, 09 at 3:10am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	I will see if I can ever read it. Should be a good read. However, as it is, we cannot say for certain what Saddam's intentions were. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 26, 09 at 9:20pm ^ re: Iraq ^4
	quote WhyteRhyno Saddam used chemical weapons against the Kurds and Iran. It is not a stretch to assume he would have likely used them again. The chemical weapons that they found were outdated and obsolete. They would not have worked. They also would not have been able to be used on Americans. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 26, 09 at 10:57pm ^ re: Iraq ^4
	The chemical weapons that were found were determined to be inoperable. They could not and would not have been used. The fact still stands: no actual weapons were found; America was not threatened. Every reason Bush used to try and get us into Iraq was a lie. I do not understand why this is being debated. Everyone recognizes this now. That is why even the Republicans have retreated to "we did it free the Iraqi people", rather than the original reasons for the invasion, because they know that the people are aware of the truth now. I do not know why it is so hard for some people to admit that we had no reason to invade Iraq, even after the mountains of evidence revealing the corruption that initiated it. Sure, Iraq the nation is improving, but the war ultimately made us less safe by fueling anti-American sentiment in the Middle East and distracting us from the real War on Terror in Afghanistan. That is where extremism has been breeding most easily. That is where it was immensely fostered, and somehow, we thought we could half-ass it and stop terrorism. There is just no logic behind that mindset. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 27, 09 at 1:02am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	Well, you are right on all the key points, Whyte. I agree that it would be worse to leave Iraq. I used to follow the view that the war needed to be ended as soon as possible, but I eventually realized that was the ideal move and not the practical one. It would have been nice if we had never invaded, but since we did, we do have to fix what started. However, we should have been doing that in Afghanistan all along. -------------------
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Rome Hooah CruisiN' total posts: 20063 since: Aug 2006	May 28, 09 at 12:06am ^ re: Iraq ^4
	Just thought I would mention that this thread is not about Iran or its potential. Before you launch into a discussion about it, remember that you should be discussing Iraq. -------------------
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