Religion: What are your beliefs & does God exist? - Page 19

quote D-G

Yeah but if you miss someone due to them being in paradise waiting for you, just kill yourself and join them. Problem solved.

Or if suicide sends you to hell, just start doing very risky things...

Yeah i think most major religions look down upon self sacrifice. {Unless your name is Jesus).

I was actually thinking along the same lines as you earlier as i wrote that post though. If i believed in Heaven i'd sure fear death a lot less.

Another aspect to my thoughts on a lack of belief revolve around religious people who commit serious sins. Priests abusing kids, jail inmates who kiss rosary beads before stabbing another inmate, a soldier in a war who uses God to justify killing. Do these people even have faith? I mean if i LITERALLY believed an entity who controlled my fate was watching every move i made how the f**k could one possibly commit a crime or sin? What pathetic little willpower that shows. I mean you wont steal a cookie whilst mum is watching, so why would anyone beat a minority or rape a woman whilst god was apparently watching?

Again in just dont think people believe what they say they do to the extent claimed. Even with normal peoples attitudes. I mean religious people are by and large no better, no nicer, no less likely to commit crimes and no more generous than non religious people. Take impatience, rage, jelousy, racism, homophobia, hate... It varies with the individual. But if these people REALLY believed in god surely they'd behave better? I mean what need is there for hate or racism when god exists? He'll sort all that out later. I mean murdering a hooker or abusing a choir boy must be F***KING BRILLIANT if these so called believers would risk an eternity of torture. Its crazy.

Its a problem i have had since childhood. If faithists belive in god and his reward/punishment system. Why oh f***ing why do they do evil things? It shows a lack of intelegence and willpower my Border Collie would look down on.

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I've had religious people admit that the religion doesn't seem to make sense but they "believe anyway due to faith". (Also God works in mysterious ways)

AKA "I'm holding on to hope because I'm scared not to believe this."

Yeah, i have heard this myself. Richard dawkins talks of a famous Geologist Kurt Wise who he describes as lost to faith. Kurt was an up and coming prodigy in the field of geology and was on his way to realising his dream of teaching earth sciences. However as Kurt grew his fundamentalist Christian upbringing dictated that the earth was just 10,000 years old. Kurt, a trained geologist was completely torn. He could scientifically prove beyond doubt that the world was indeed billions of years old yet firmly believed it not to be due to nothing but faith. His next step was interesting:

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He was too intelligent not to recognize the head-on collision between his religion and his science, and the conflict in his mind made him increasingly uneasy. One day, he could hear the strain no more, and he clinched the matter with a pair of scissors. He took a bible and went right through it, literally cutting out every verse that would have to go if the scientific world-view were true.

At the end of the excercise Kurt had so little of his bible left that he realised a reconciliation between science and his beliefs was impossible. He had a starkl choice to make. Science... or god. Kurt now runs the creationist "Center for Origins Research" in tenessee. And in a most telling quote he said:

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With that, in great sorrow, I tossed into the fire all my dreams and hopes in science.

How trully sad and depressing.

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Wait a moment there, I thought you said that everything happened for a reason?

Yes. The religious confusion over fate, destiny, free will and human fault is a gaping problem with Christianity especially. The entire issue makes absolutely no sense and moreso makes a mockery of the faith yet no-one will admit that. Its rediculous. And i feel bad for Christians sitting looking for an answer. Its about as clear as my old DVD players Chinese instructions.

quote WakeCraterWind

quote Misty

quote WakeCraterWind

You are still thinking of their image as a whole to everyone. Sure idiots and bigots will leap onto the extremists of any cause they disagree with. This is yourself.

That I object to, given that I agree that lumping everyone into an extremist category isn't accurate (I was simply pointing out that it's easy to see a group in a negative light when the primary thing that one sees from that group are negatives). I don't take kindly to being called an idiot, thanks for your opinion though.

I... didn't call you an idiot, but I'm sorry you took it that way.


I completely got what you said. Clearly, you weren't one. And idiots and bigots will always point to the worst as representatives. Sorry mate, but you have to be a touch less sensitive.

Oh, np, I must've misread it. Sorry.

Mourning to me is kind of... odd. It seems really disingenuious to not mourn for a loss, because regardless of what happens in any kind of afterlife the fact really is that it is a loss. It'd be silly to consider it not to be a loss; the person isn't with you right now anymore. Even if they are in spirit or are watching over you or are somehow connected to you still, they're not physically there and you can't interact with them anymore. That much is a loss, no matter how you look at it. But then they're in a better place, supposedly, right? I'd imagine it would almost make you feel guilty to be sad that someone left and aren't here with you anymore, but they're supposedly in a better place now. I think that guilt over being sorry they're gone but seemingly selfish for not wanting them to be somewhere that's better off would bother me, personally.

Honestly, I think a lot of religions open up more questions than they try to close. Barring religions like those with the ancient Greek gods, for someone who's curious as to why there is suffering, the answer "God works in mysterious ways" surely isn't enough. It opens questions that are even less answerable than the ones it was trying to answer. It's why I find religious studies interesting, because some people apparently can reconcile reasoning and strong religious beliefs in more effective ways than Kurt Wise.

KR_1250 I can't really say for sure there, but I'd imagine it's similar to the idea of belief just in case. I've forgotten exactly whose theory it was, but someone said that they believed in God because if he doesn't exist, there's no harm done, but if he does exist his bases are covered. It's a little disingenuous to say that you have strong faith but aren't sure if you'll ever see a deceased friend/family member again, even though that's a part of your religious beliefs, isn't it? It'd be hard to admit to being unsure of faith even though one wants to have a front of being completely sure (and, likely, would like to be entirely sure that faith won't waiver).

Personally, I think that questioning faith is a huge part of how people can grow with their spiritual beliefs though. I think it's almost self-defeating to avoid questions that call faith into question, because faith is that balance between belief and how it coincides with reality by definition. Not confronting that uncertainty or at least acknowledging it defeats the purpose of faith entirely.

quote KR_1250

Surely a god would want independently minded followers with some conviction and NOT a flock of sheep?

It's funny that you mentioned this because most Christians identify Jesus as their Shepard (LOL).

ON ANOTHER TOPIC:

When I was younger, I didn't know very much as to why things worked the way they do, and today I realize much of what I believed then was due in part to this. I couldn't imagine a universe that started from nothing (that's what I thought then at least), I guess out of my own ignorance I attributed a lot of what happens in the world to supernatural. I even once tried to get saved for my sins, but Jesus didn't appear to me , and nothing changed after that. I didn't feel any different from the time I got down to the time I stood up; aside from my knees hurting. It was about that time I began to pay more attention in science (biology), and I found out that a lot of things that I once thought was the work of the supernatural could be completely natural. No one knows anything for certain, not even scientists who research the topic know that the theory is 100% true. In science nothing is absolute, not even Einstein's theories.

I took basic physics in high school, and that answered a lot of questions I had on how the world worked. I learned about all the great scientists who taught us the way the world works. Newton showed us the way into space, electro-magnetism gave us light in the dark, Einstein gave us the atomic bomb and nuclear power and he showed us how stars work in the night sky. Everything sitting in your living room, and in your kitchen is evidence of these great minds working in the background. I don't know about you, but that to me is lasting forever, to leave that much of an imprint on society all around the world is astonishing. What has religion done for us?

I do believe that there is a God, only one and that he is alot like the one you read about in the Bible. The reason I can believe that despite some of the good points made by you guys in here about people suffering etc. is quite simple really.

God initially created a "perfect" world, a world which had no flaws, however perfection in a world where everyone isn't God simply isn't possible, God created mankind (IE man and woman) as entities needing eachother and together reflecting the perfection, beauty and power of the creator. In order for this to happen they each had to reflect two different sides of God, but with the need of eachother. Not going to go further into that since it's off topic.

What then happened was, since free will had to be there for it all to work out was the story with the snake and bla bla bla. How did the snake get in this perfect world? He had to be there for humanity to have the choice, meaning free will.

Sadly our ancestors chose to break the one rule that was there, the rule was set to penalty of death, but God decided he would show mercy upon them and instead let 2 animals take the fall for them. The only reason this could be justified is if there at some point would be a way back to this perfect world, after we have learn from our mistakes.

The point of it all, however badly I may have worded it is this:
God is good despite the suffering, it is there for us to learn. We didn't learn initially and God has tried many things since then. Many people say "you never appreciate until you lose", it's true.

I am still open to all opinions, this is just how I view it.

Aside from all this, what has Religion done for us? Nothing good for sure, religion is a lost cause that sank many millenia ago. Crusades are a testimony to how insane it has become, the wars in the middleeast are a constant reminder to anyone who forgets.

quote KR_1250

Yeah ofcourse, but surely thats a metaphor and nothing more. Why would god want followers he created to follow him unquestionably? What would be the point? I mean god does not show himself to humans, so he MUST want us to question his existance. I just dont get that

too bad a lot of Christians don't see it that way.

quote Tashur Astur

Sadly our ancestors chose to break the one rule that was there, the rule was set to penalty of death, but God decided he would show mercy upon them and instead let 2 animals take the fall for them. The only reason this could be justified is if there at some point would be a way back to this perfect world, after we have learn from our mistakes.

Without an understanding of right and wrong to begin with. You see even in the creation story it has contradictions.... How can a god expect them not eat something if they can't understand the implications of doing so? That's like arresting a elementary school student for assault and battery because he beat up another kid. How can you overlook that important fact?

Tashur Astur

But beauty is just your opinion. If you accepted it as a mundane and ordinary thing to be alive, then you could accept a mundane and ordinary reason for this, right?

And someone with a shitty horrible depressing life full of suffering would NOT require a beautiful origin.

Anyway what's "not beautiful" about the big bang? Seems a lot more elegant to me than a magic invisible man deciding to make a world and some people for no reason (boredom?).

And I still don't understand your argument about mercy.

Let's say that I catch you robbing my house. And instead of turning you in to the police, I get a random dog from the neighborhood, and I shoot the dog.

Was justice done this day? Am I great and merciful?

quote Tashur Astur

In the Bible it very clearly states that if the day came where they ate from given tree, they should die. How is that not clear? I think it's extremely clear and precise.

It also states that they were without knowledge of right and wrong, and went about naked >.> , so go ahead and tell your dog not to eat a steak on the floor and then kill him if he does.

quote Tashur Astur

What I'm 100% against however, is evolution. The big bang seems very beautiful to me indeed, but Evolution is simply disgusting - my opinion, once again.

What's so wrong with the idea, anyway? Everything evolves, even your cell phone. Did you know that the closest living relative to whales is hippos? That's a tough one to swallow, but do you understand as to how biologists came up with that solution? All evolution states is that an animal will gradually change over time due to environmental pressures e.g. climate changes and predators. If a trait helps an animal survive to adulthood that trait will be augmented in population eventually, and if it continues to be helpful it may re-shape the animal to better fit the trait. Why do you think we even have DNA?