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D-G BANG CruisiN' total posts: 22185 since: Mar 2003	Nov 07, 11 at 11:23pm ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	Log in to remove this sponsored message But what interests me is that your stance on "not interfering with free will" appears to be opposed to what many claim about God. They claim he actually influences their actions throughout life. That is definitely interfering with free will. So, you think he doesn't do that? Statistics about Christians dying in accidents? No. But when you consider how a very large percentage of America are Christians, and many of them die in car accidents every year, God is clearly not saving them all. -------------------
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skythelegend Stealing modchairs since 2006 Hooked on Neo total posts: 4114 since: Nov 2006	Nov 08, 11 at 12:48am ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	quote DC Sniper quote skythelegend According to a few sources God is, Omnipotent, Omniscient and Good, while the Devil is his polar opposite, Impotent, Ignorant and Evil. What sources? Don't shy away now, link. Now you blamed the Devil for causing Sickness and disaster. If the Devil is truly God's opposite, not just in philosophy, but power and knowledge, he cannot have a measurable effect on anything and does not understand his own actions, nevermind what's happening beyond Hell. Who? You are thinking too literally. Just Power is not the opposite of no power. There is also Corrupt Power. I think you know what those two mean. For a plan to succeed, you need to do something to make it happen. Jonah was part of a plan and acted on his free will to escape from where God wanted him to be, but God took away his free will and forced him to be where God wanted him using a whale, anyone remember that story? Jonah was scared, if I recall right. Yes, God forced him into carrying out his plan, why is this a problem? If God appoints you to do a task, like Abraham and Isaac (remember THAT story!?), you should probably do it. There's also Jeremiah? The guy God commanded to kill his son, so he goes and worries about it for a moment, but since God is all powerful and wrathful/unforgiving/gentle/forgiving/accepting/bigoted/benevolent he feels he has no choice but to accept. So he does try to kill his son, bu then God interferes again... Big shocker eh? He sends an angel to stop him as he's about to finish the little sinner. Disease and afflictions are God's punishment for Sins/the Devil's punishment for Sins/the Devil's work and anyone with the more serious/permament ones are going to Hell? This includes rape victims with HIV, this was obviously the Devil's work/a test by God, which they have obviously failed and are going to Hell. You got a lot of slashes for two sentences, learn to write. Find anyone with Autism or Downs Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy or whatever, also add Homosexuals just for lulz. Turn them into a paragon of Christianity and... Well God gave them a Disease and because they have a Disease they're going to Hell. Nice guy. You clearly barged in here without reading anything between me and DG. Smooth. quote DG DC Sniper Doesn't change the fact that God doesn't help anyone at all. Why do Christians claim he does? He doesn't cure people of horrible genetic diseases, though he could, and though they are not the fault of the person who has them. He doesn't save people from car accidents. People claim he does, but when you consider how many Christians die in car accidents, it's clear he's not really doing anything. He doesn't save people from murder, rape, child abuse, or being robbed. God is basically useless and praying to him is useless too. Why be a Christian? Is it because you fear burning in hell? You have statistics about Christians dying in accidents? LOL source link? Again, you come back to your original point and I to my new point of He does. not. interfere. with. free will. Why be a Christian? It is for many reasons that none of which will convince you or mean anything to you. Everyone has their own reasons. It was from a few people who had read all the different Bibles, the Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost. They mentioned something about God and Satan being everything I listed. Omnipotence is Infinite Power, the opposite, Impotence is exactly the opposite of Infinite Power. It isn't "Corrupt Power", it's actually a Lack of Power. There is no "Corrupt Power", there is only Power, Power Corrupts. Not the other way around, corrupt beings can gain power, but being corrupt doesn't directly cause power gain. There's an old quote I'm about to paraphrase. Adversary can bring out the best in people, but if you want to see the true measure of a man, you'll give him power. Something about War, it was probably Sun Tzu who said it. Okay now Jonah, Abraham (not Jeremiah so thankyou for that) and his son Isaac. You remember how Jonah was told to do something and he umm... Decided not to... Then God more or less forced him to anyway? You remember how Jonah was really allowed to express his free will there? You remember how God totally didn't force Jonah to do anything he didn't want to? I know how to write, the slashes in that sentence were for those little things that are described as multiple things. Some people claim sickness to be God's punishment, some people claim it to be a test, some people claim it to be a punishment by Satan, some people claim it to be has work, some people actually call it one of God's blessings. I read some of it, but you gave me the opinion that you're an intolerant asshole who will dismiss anyone else's thoughts, facts and opinions if they're diferent to your thoughts and opinions. Wether you have facts or not. You actually tried proving me wrong there by agreeing with me, that God did take away free will that ~~one~~ ~~those two~~ a few times, but he totally doesn't ever take away anyone's free will. It's a bit of topic, but it's relevent to what has been mentioned so I have to bring it up. I'm not a fan of Battlefield at all, plus I think the fanbase is as annoying as the Call of Duty and Halo fanbases. That's one of my opinions which, I believe, is different to yours right? ------------------- No spelling making? Oblivion Blue Mage Morrowind Blue Mage
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D-G BANG CruisiN' total posts: 22185 since: Mar 2003	Nov 08, 11 at 1:02am ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	Also, how about Adam and Eve? God sure didn't like it when they used their free will to eat the wrong fruit! Super butthurt resulted. Now granted you could argue he didn't prevent them from eating it... But isn't punishing someone for a completely victimless "crime" for no logical reason equally bad? -------------------
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Grimdark Mugetsu NeoXtreme total posts: 8786 neopoints: 102 since: Jan 2007	Nov 08, 11 at 1:57am ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	quote DG Now granted you could argue he didn't prevent them from eating it... But isn't punishing someone for a completely victimless "crime" for no logical reason equally bad? He told them one rule and only that rule. They broke that rule. Breaking rules have punishments, especially when a divine being that creates you gave you that rule. quote skythelegend It was from a few people who had read all the different Bibles, the Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost. They mentioned something about God and Satan being everything I listed. So it was their thoughts and opinion on it. Omnipotence is Infinite Power, the opposite, Impotence is exactly the opposite of Infinite Power. It isn't "Corrupt Power", it's actually a Lack of Power. There is no "Corrupt Power", there is only Power, Power Corrupts. Not the other way around, corrupt beings can gain power, but being corrupt doesn't directly cause power gain. Okay now Jonah, Abraham (not Jeremiah so thankyou for that) and his son Isaac. You remember how Jonah was told to do something and he umm... Decided not to... Then God more or less forced him to anyway? You remember how Jonah was really allowed to express his free will there? You remember how God totally didn't force Jonah to do anything he didn't want to? All Jonah had to do was prophesy to a city, it's really not that difficult. He disobeyed God, yes. You actually tried proving me wrong there by agreeing with me, that God did take away free will that ~~one~~ ~~those two~~ a few times, but he totally doesn't ever take away anyone's free will. God commanded individuals throughout the Old Testament and sometimes, they refused. You can see God akin to a king ordering his subjects around, except that God only ordered several around in the OT, and has ceased since. For the majority of the time, with rare exceptions, His subjects' free will has been maintained. Your quote is by Abraham Lincoln. Sun Tzu? I dislike Battlefield greatly. I have also quit Call of Duty because I also dislike it greatly. I've never played Halo. The fanbase of all three have their annoying factions within their individual players. Your 'ignorant asshole' angle doesn't work and has no bearing on the actual debate.
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skythelegend Stealing modchairs since 2006 Hooked on Neo total posts: 4114 since: Nov 2006	Nov 08, 11 at 12:00pm ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	quote DC Sniper Your quote is by Abraham Lincoln. Sun Tzu? Aww how cute, you're so proud of yourself for being able to point out how I quoted the wrong person. I'm going to let you in on a little secret, it's been a while since I played Rome Total War, that's where I got the quote and I couldn't be bothered to reinstall it and sit through up to an hour's worth of loading screens just to get the right name. You do seem so proud every single time you post anything here. Right now the people who quoted the Bible, Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost? Well it seemed to be the entire Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost that I read, while those Bible quotes were just extractions from the Bible and a little opinion piece on why two contradictory segments contradicted eachother. You should be able to find someone with evidence of why "they believe" the Bible contradicts itself anywhere on the internet, so if you really want proof, look for th answers yourself, like you do with the Bible. Okay now about God punishing murderers, rapists, thieves and the like. What about? God helps those who help themselves. Because they're helping themselves to whatever they want, regardless of who they hurt. It's either about rewarding the strong, or doing nothing and taking credit for everyone else's work. Now I never once called you an "ignorant asshole" and would like you to apologise for accusing me of such a thing. I came here secure in my faith that I knew enough to join this debate for several posts and have not felt the need to go scouring the internet or Bible every time I post, but you are picking over the smallest things in my post and using them as if they were a pair of contradicting passages in the Bible. Pride, vanity, arrogance. You keep celebrating your teeny tiny victories like this, I could've sworn there was something against that in your religion, but I must be wrong. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a Christian attempting to force his beliefs and his own interpretation of the Bible down everyone's throats and celebrating every little mistake the other person makes in opposition. In fact, maybe you should join in with the Muslims and have another crusade to cleanse the heathens? My reasons for not doing my research is a mix of Sloth and Pride. I can't be bothered to scour the internet and read through hundreds of lines of text for hours just so I can post something here without you jumping onto it faster than a Jehovah's Witness' foot in someone's door. And I feel you are not worth that much of my time, I would rather just make a quick post here than waste it on someone who will only ignore their own version of the truth when I repeat it. ------------------- No spelling making? Oblivion Blue Mage Morrowind Blue Mage
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D-G BANG CruisiN' total posts: 22185 since: Mar 2003	Nov 08, 11 at 12:49pm ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	quote DC Sniper quote DG Now granted you could argue he didn't prevent them from eating it... But isn't punishing someone for a completely victimless "crime" for no logical reason equally bad? He told them one rule and only that rule. They broke that rule. Breaking rules have punishments, especially when a divine being that creates you gave you that rule. And yet you claim he lets people break his other rules such as "thou shalt not kill" on a daily basis. Without even punishing them in this world. Anyway, time to destroy your argument. You claim God does not interfere with human lives. Or at least with our actions. But he nuked two entire cities to prevent the corruption of the inhabitants spreading to other people. It was the right of the people living there to spread this corruption. By destroying them, God was denying their free will to do so. -------------------
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Turkagent Veritas Vos Liberabit Neoholic total posts: 10386 neopoints: 485 since: Feb 2002	Nov 08, 11 at 4:52pm ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	DC Sniper You asked for sources regarding the following attributes of the evil god Yahweh: Omnipotent Spoiler: Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Jeremiah 32:17,27 Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee: Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Omniscient Spoiler: Psalm 147:4,5 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite. Acts 15:18 Known to God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Psalm 33:13 The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men. II Kings 13:19 And the man of God was wroth with him, and said, Thou shouldest have smitten five or six times; then hadst thou smitten Syria till thou hadst consumed it: whereas now thou shalt smite Syria but thrice. Jeremiah 38:17-20 Then said Jeremiah unto Zedekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of hosts, the God of Israel; If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the king of Babylon's princes, then shall this city be given into the hand of the Chaldeans, and they shall burn it with fire, and thou shalt not escape out of their hand. And Zedekiah the king said unto Jeremiah, I am afraid of the Jews that are fallen to the Chaldeans, lest they deliver me into their hand, and they mock me. But Jeremiah said, They shall not deliver thee. Obey, I beseech thee, the voice of the Lord, which I speak unto thee: so it shall be will unto thee, and thy soul shall live Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickened the dead, and calleth those things which be not though as they were. Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. Matthew 11:21-23 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. Omnipresent Spoiler: Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Jeremiah 23:23,24 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord. Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Psalm 113:5 Who is like unto the Lord our God, who dwelleth on high. Psalm 123:1 Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens. I Kings 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; I Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty. Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Romans 10:6,7 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? Or, Who shall descend into the deep? Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Omnibenevolent Spoiler: I John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 15:9-14 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and the great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, not life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, not any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. I Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. I John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. I John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. For omnibenevolence you have to extent that connection beyond its simple meaning (an easy trick for any apologist). 1) John states that god is love and that god loves us. Thus god cares for us and intends to be kind towards us. 2)The warped definition of the Christian god states that god is perfect. 3)It logically makes sense that if god loves and cares for us perfectly. 4) Given 1-3, god must be omnibenevolent. So there you go, definitions as desired, if you want to believe in a book several thousand years old, written by ignorant woman-hating savages. ------------------- In the first place God made idiots. This was for practice. Then He made school boards. - Mark Twain
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D-G BANG CruisiN' total posts: 22185 since: Mar 2003	Nov 08, 11 at 5:35pm ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	quote I John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. OK... I just noticed that John is contradicting the old testament. Isn't God meant to have shown up as a magical glowing cloud at some point? So people did see him. -------------------
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Turkagent Veritas Vos Liberabit Neoholic total posts: 10386 neopoints: 485 since: Feb 2002	Nov 08, 11 at 6:17pm ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	@DG@ Yes, there are quite a few contradictions in the bible(Just over 100 I believe). I wouldn't waste time discussing them however, apologists have millions of interpretations of those contradictions. They will say that Jesus said three things at once when different authors quote Jesus as saying opposite things, or when they argue over who found the tomb of Jesus empty they will say somehow that all contradicting passages are true. Unless you want to get involved in intellectual masturbation and beating your head into a wall of "your interpretation is wrong" then I would not pursue that angle. ------------------- In the first place God made idiots. This was for practice. Then He made school boards. - Mark Twain
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Grimdark Mugetsu NeoXtreme total posts: 8786 neopoints: 102 since: Jan 2007	Nov 08, 11 at 6:49pm ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	quote skythelegend quote DC Sniper Your quote is by Abraham Lincoln. Sun Tzu? Aww how cute, you're so proud of yourself for being able to point out how I quoted the wrong person. I'm going to let you in on a little secret, it's been a while since I played Rome Total War, that's where I got the quote and I couldn't be bothered to reinstall it and sit through up to an hour's worth of loading screens just to get the right name. I haven't played Rome: Total War in about two years, actually. You could have simply googled your quote to save face, rather than mistakenly post it by a different author. You do seem so proud every single time you post anything here. Thanks so much! It means a lot to know my posts are valued beyond the post count! Pride, vanity, arrogance. You keep celebrating your teeny tiny victories like this, I could've sworn there was something against that in your religion, but I must be wrong. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a Christian attempting to force his beliefs and his own interpretation of the Bible down everyone's throats and celebrating every little mistake the other person makes in opposition. In fact, maybe you should join in with the Muslims and have another crusade to cleanse the heathens? Forcing my beliefs? I have not once tried to convert DG or anyone of the like as of my posting in this thread. I am merely debating, not converting. Perhaps if you got your prideful thinking out of the way, you would have seen this. Alas. quote Turkagent DC Sniper You asked for sources regarding the following attributes of the evil god Yahweh: Yes, for evil attributes. Not omnipotence. quote DG Anyway, time to destroy your argument. You claim God does not interfere with human lives. Or at least with our actions. But he nuked two entire cities to prevent the corruption of the inhabitants spreading to other people. It was the right of the people living there to spread this corruption. Nuked, lol. That was in the Old Testament and has only occurred in that manner of fire and brimstone once.
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Turkagent Veritas Vos Liberabit Neoholic total posts: 10386 neopoints: 485 since: Feb 2002	Nov 08, 11 at 6:51pm ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	DC Sniper Define evil for me and I will get you passages from the bible confirming how god is evil. Though in truth I expect that I will hear apologetics of how god defines goodness and thus by definition cannot be evil. ------------------- In the first place God made idiots. This was for practice. Then He made school boards. - Mark Twain
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Grimdark Mugetsu NeoXtreme total posts: 8786 neopoints: 102 since: Jan 2007	Nov 08, 11 at 6:53pm ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	quote Turkagent DC Sniper Define evil for me and I will get you passages from the bible confirming how god is evil. Though in truth I expect that I will hear apologetics of how god defines goodness and thus by definition cannot be evil. You are using a vocabulary term you cannot define to describe God?
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D-G BANG CruisiN' total posts: 22185 since: Mar 2003	Nov 08, 11 at 6:54pm ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	quote DC Sniper Nuked, lol. That was in the Old Testament and has only occurred in that manner of fire and brimstone once. Sodom is one city. Gomorrah is another. That's at least twice. I also recall mention of another city which a human destroyed by throwing some weird glowy thing an angel gave him. Can't remember what the context was. Anyway, it still means God has been interfering. Please explain. You said he never does. -------------------
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Grimdark Mugetsu NeoXtreme total posts: 8786 neopoints: 102 since: Jan 2007	Nov 08, 11 at 6:56pm ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	quote DG quote DC Sniper Nuked, lol. That was in the Old Testament and has only occurred in that manner of fire and brimstone once. Sodom is one city. Gomorrah is another. That's at least twice. He did it at the same time. Among those two were two other cities with similar crimes.
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D-G BANG CruisiN' total posts: 22185 since: Mar 2003	Nov 08, 11 at 6:57pm ^ re: General Faith Based Debate Thread Mark II
	shrug That's still God interfering with free will. What gave him the right on that one particular occasion to prevent people doing as they wished? Yet on every other occasion he sits on his ass doing nothing, according to you, because he never interferes with free will. But he does! -------------------
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