The Occupy ____ Movement - Page 3

quote Halo_Asassin

And to all the people saying that the bottom fifty percent pay no taxes, sorry, but you've been lied to. The bottom fifty (47, but whatever) only pay no federal income tax, which accounts for just 43% of all taxes. This "53%" bullshit is just bullshit.

The only significant federal "tax" they pay would be social security, which they supposedly get back eventually. The other taxes that make the other 57% of federal taxes is corporate and payroll taxes, and the likes. Middle class individuals wouldn't be paying those taxes except the small business owner, but that isn't the owner, its the business.

As I already stated, the poor pay some tax, like sales tax, or water tax, or the taxes on your phone line, property tax if they happen to own a property,...but federal taxes? Pretty much that is all paid up by the top 50%, corporations, businesses, not the poor.

quote Halo_Asassin

Furthermore, it's also worth noting that average income of everyone but the top one percent has remained the same for about the past thirty years, while the top 1%'s income has gone drastically up.

Welcome to capitalism. It takes money to make money, so the rich get richer. And the fact is that we don't want to pay Americans to work, we rather buy cheaper products made in China, so we are part of the problem. We want them to pay a good wage, and hurt their wallets, but we don't want to pay for products that might hurt ours. We demand cheaper goods, and they supply it at the cost of American jobs and wages.


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quote Bri

So quite frankly, we're entitled to better jobs and tax policies...

No were not. What have you done to be owed a better job? Tax policy needs to change, but that isn't because we are entitled to "better" policies, its because the tax code is 15,000 pages too long and as G.W.B put it, "a complicated mess".

quote silverboner

Welcome to capitalism. It takes money to make money, so the rich get richer. And the fact is that we don't want to pay Americans to work, we rather buy cheaper products made in China, so we are part of the problem. We want them to pay a good wage, and hurt their wallets, but we don't want to pay for products that might hurt ours. We demand cheaper goods, and they supply it at the cost of American jobs and wages.

Which is precisely why Capitalism needs regulation to be a good system. And more regulation isn't necessarily the focus of the protests, but I'd imagine it's a goal of the majority of protesters.

A system where the cost of living continues to go up while 99% of people's wages remain the same can't sustain itself.

quote silverboner

No were not. What have you done to be owed a better job? Tax policy needs to change, but that isn't because we are entitled to "better" policies, its because the tax code is 15,000 pages too long and as G.W.B put it, "a complicated mess".

As all of us are taxpayers, I totally agree a simpler tax code is needed. But even then, people have a million and one ideas on how to do this, and it's stagnated.

Let me rephrase my original statement. Better job opportunities, not the actual job.

In a unregulated capitalistic sense...as we're seeing these days on Wall Street, the ideal is to reduce costs and maximize profit. So, what do you do? You fire longtime employees who have been nothing but loyal for 25, 35 or 40 years and do one of three things: Slap the pay in half, remove all benefits and give it to a younger person who wouldn't know any better, eliminate the position entirely and let the rest of the workforce shoulder even longer hours and have more responsibility, or the most common option, ship the job overseas and have a person living in a hut work 18 hour shifts for $1.00 a day in slave-like conditions. Profits go up, shareholders are happy, consumers are happy with cheap Chinese/Indonesian/Indian products and the CEO gets his private jet. Swell.

What the hell that has to do with entitlement, you ask? In a sense, the protest seeks to clean up Wall Street. Part of that would involve restoring workers' rights, which have been decimated by the economic downturn and the Republican party's relentless assault on unions. Because "times are tough", higher-ups are slashing health insurance, letting wages stagnate, and not filling positions. Meanwhile, unions - because they are demanding better benefits for its members - which they are supposed to do - are seen as a "threat" to this model in which the ultimate goal is to make as much money as humanly possible. This is also known as capitalism, and many of these points are listed in the Occupy manifesto.

Unfortunately, consumers do have to shoulder the fact that buying American would mean higher prices. I will give you guys that point as a unwilling but consistent shopper at Walmart. I can only take my paycheck so far buying premium foodstuffs and I really wish I can stick it to the Chinese if I could afford it.

What I meant to say really was entitled to a "cleaned up" job market. I've said already I'd never take a government handout.

quote Fatal Error

Don't forget that bipartisanship and just general differences of opinion are very strong in our government, and it is often impossible to get forward movement in lawmaking without these stupid lobbyists finding ways to sneak the bills through by coordinating give and take with different lawmakers.

Since 9/11 in particular I've noticed a lot more bills, both good and bad are getting killed strictly on party lines and other major bills are subject to horrendously long debates (months and months) that ultimately end in a drastic revision of the bill that make it redundant. Bipartisanship isn't what it used to be, and the fiasco concerning the debt ceiling limit a few months ago is proof. Lobbyists have very little, if any role in that problem.

Lol, because the European economy is so stable. Give me a break. You said it yourself: you're not an economist, and you really don't know government either. Just saying things strongly doesn't make them true.

Here's the facts: without rich people paying campaign dues and the like, our government would come to a screeching halt. Does it suck? Sure, but there isn't any way around it. People can't campaign without money, and a person short on cash has NO HOPE of running for office because they could never get their name out enough with only their own funding. The rich currently pay a vast majority of federal taxes, and the middle and lower class pay little, of any at all. Sales tax is not going to magically discriminate against people with higher income, property tax is already scaled to be higher for higher valued property, and utility taxes are as well. Lobbyists, as annoying as they are, are very much a necessity to move thing in our current government because they are the ones that ultimately negotiate deals. Does that suck? Absolutely, but good luck voting in a whole class of politicians that are actually willing to negotiate and be logical all the time. Bri, you make a fair point about bipartisanship being too severe, but it really would be worse if not for people managing to sneak in deals to get the stuff done at all. It could be bad, but without them we probably wouldn't have ANY bills pass.

Europe's economy is a mess and looking to them for guidance is a terrible idea. The rich could be taxed more, but they could also all just leave whenever they wanted because the United States already has the highest corporate taxes in the world, and raising them more is dangerous because if it goes to far, they can all just pack up and leave and take all the jobs with them.

The issue with the Occupy Movement is that it lacks foresight and even basic knowledge on how government functions and how capitalism works. People are just upset that they aren't getting the jobs they want and taking it out on the people with money while continuing to buy and use the products of these huge corporations they despise so much. That is why I can't stand with the movement. Build something on a foundation of ignorance and watch it all come falling down when it gets too big to support itself.

I don't see how we are entitled to better job opportunities. What have you done to earn that or be owed that? Simply existing and being willing to work does not entitle you to better job opportunities.

Capitalism works on supply and demand, and willingness for people to work. Companies have to be competitive, and that usually means they cannot just dump older employees when they feel like it, cause younger career oriented people will more then likely not apply. Of course in a recession like this, some people will be happy to just have a job and gladly take it.

Companies are more then likely going to fire US employees and set up shop somewhere else cause we are too cheap to pay for American Made products. This is on you and me, not corporation. We want them to offer cheap products, and pay good wages, hurting their pockets and pretty much making it so they cannot do business in the states. But if we sacrifice a little bit, and buy American, we can save jobs and help the economy. We want them to fix it, we want them to take a hit in their pocket books, but we don't want to even pay for American jobs by buying American products. We keep those business in business by purchasing and using their products.

I had great respect for Wallmart. Then use to only sell "Made in America" products. Now they don't care where its made, they just expect it to be cheaper every year. Business that want to be distributed by Walmart have been FORCED out of the country. Like Huffy Bikes, they used to be made in America, but to do business with Walmart, they had to go to china to keep up with demand and pricing. Walmart didn't think it was a "good value" to pay that much. That is just one example of one gigantic business killing other businesses in America, all in the name of a few bucks. And we can stop Walmart, if we stopped shopping there. its really that simple, but we choose not to. We bear the responsibility as much as the "rich" corporations because we are basically hypocrites, wanting them to hurt their profit, and still pay good wages, but we don't want to pay for good wages in the products we purchase.

I don't shop Walmart, do you?


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quote Halo_Asassin

When the richest 450 people control 50% of America's wealth, I wouldn't have it any other way.

How is it "America's Wealth"? Isn't it THEIR wealth? Entitlement screws with truth.

Ok, so those people can leave America, and then what? Suddenly income distribution is right where you want it...except now we don't have shit for jobs and the economy sucks.

I personally thing the protesters/movement whatever you want to call it is hypocritical. One of the people complaining about capatilism and bankers is an economics student, and studying economics often leads into the career that he is protesting about.

Whilst capatilism is a flawed system, it is far better than the alternatives. One only needs to look at communist examples, such as the USSR, China, North Korea, etc... how about Facism? One only needs to look at Nazi Germany. Capitalism isn't perfect, but it works, and is the best system out there.

It occurs to me that the protesters just want scape goats, in this case, bankers. However, I seem to think that the banks have paid enough. Whilst the bonuses getting paid are still stupid, there is only so far that the government can push multinational banks before they decided to relocate their HQs to a different country and that if that happens, then the final blow to the UKs economy is dealt.

Instead of trying to find someway to contribute though, they instead protest, doing more harm than good, just like the London riots only a month or two ago. Taxes in the UK isn't a solution though, since the cost of living is high and the UK government like others is trying to curb our deficit. How I see it though is that they have two options:

1) Raise taxes and thus see hundreds of thousands of households and families collapse under the pressure of the high cost of living anyway, and see them all default on payments or even worse end up declaring bankruptcy.

or

2) Cut public spending, thus leading to the redundancy of hundreds of thousands of workers, who although would be worse off, would have less of an impact on the country.

Seems that cutting spending is the lesser of two options, and in the end the Conservatives and Lib Dems are going to suffer in the polls due to the position they are in. Labour on the other hand, watch the Tory party fight to get the debt over the country down, and watch the party suffer in election polls to a point that Labour get back in.

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Back to the movement though, it is clear that most of these people are hypocrites...

1) They complain about a system of government that they do not like. If you don't like capitalism, then don't live in a capitalist society! Move to a communist country. There are several failed governments for you to choose from.

2) They complain about greedy banks and companies... yet the services these banks and companies provide are the same services they most probably use. They want banks to pay, yet almost all of them have a bank account probably, in which their entire money savings are held... savings they probably wouldn't even have in a communist country.

3) They complain about the stock exchange and thus get back to greedy companies, yet these greedy companies are perhaps the same companies that in ten years time will employ them. They complain about Mr. X, CEO of RichCompany Ltd. How many I wonder wouldn't do the same things if they were in that position.

Their attitude though is an insult to the people who work and are actually paying taxes to help get rid of this problem. Similar with the public sector strikes again only a few months back. Yet I work in the private sector. I don't get a pention, or many of the perks of the job. You don't see private sector workers strike every five minutes because the goverenment is trying to fix what is broken.

How about a new strategy guys: Instead of complaining, live with it! It's unlikely that the problem will go away in the short term, and the sooner that governments can sort out debts and get the cash flow crisis fixed, the better for all of us.

quote harbin91

I personally thing the protesters/movement whatever you want to call it is hypocritical. One of the people complaining about capatilism and bankers is an economics student, and studying economics often leads into the career that he is protesting about.

Whilst capatilism is a flawed system, it is far better than the alternatives. One only needs to look at communist examples, such as the USSR, China, North Korea, etc... how about Facism? One only needs to look at Nazi Germany. Capitalism isn't perfect, but it works, and is the best system out there.

The protesters aren't anti-capitalist. They're anti-underregulated capitalism.

It occurs to me that the protesters just want scape goats, in this case, bankers. They're not scapegoats. However, I seem to think that the banks have paid enough. They haven't. Whilst the bonuses getting paid are still stupid, there is only so far that the government can push multinational banks before they decided to relocate their HQs to a different country and that if that happens, then the final blow to the UKs economy is dealt. I promise you that no bank is going to move HQ over a modest tax increase

Instead of trying to find someway to contribute though, they instead protest, It's not worth contributing to a system that is flawed. doing more harm than good, just like the London riots only a month or two ago. This is NOTHING like the London riots. At least in America, the protests have been completely nonviolent and non-destructive. Taxes in the UK isn't a solution though, since the cost of living is high and the UK government like others is trying to curb our deficit. How I see it though is that they have two options:

1) Raise taxes and thus see hundreds of thousands of households and families collapse under the pressure of the high cost of living anyway, and see them all default on payments or even worse end up declaring bankruptcy.

or

2) Cut public spending, thus leading to the redundancy of hundreds of thousands of workers, who although would be worse off, would have less of an impact on the country.

or

3) Raise taxes only on the wealthiest citizens, hurting nobody.

Seems that cutting spending is the lesser of two options, and in the end the Conservatives and Lib Dems are going to suffer in the polls due to the position they are in. Labour on the other hand, watch the Tory party fight to get the debt over the country down, and watch the party suffer in election polls to a point that Labour get back in.

---

Back to the movement though, it is clear that most of these people are hypocrites...

1) They complain about a system of government that they do not like. If you don't like capitalism, then don't live in a capitalist society! Move to a communist country. There are several failed governments for you to choose from.

Really? You're going to defer to the old "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GET THE HELL OUT." Well, to that, I say go *bleep* yourself. There's nothing wrong with trying to change a system you perceive as injust.

2) They complain about greedy banks and companies... yet the services these banks and companies provide are the same services they most probably use. They want banks to pay, yet almost all of them have a bank account probably, in which their entire money savings are held... savings they probably wouldn't even have in a communist country.

They're not anti-company or anti-bank.

3) They complain about the stock exchange and thus get back to greedy companies, yet these greedy companies are perhaps the same companies that in ten years time will employ them. They complain about Mr. X, CEO of RichCompany Ltd. How many I wonder wouldn't do the same things if they were in that position.

You're probably right. Which is why the system needs to be changed so they can't do that.

Their attitude though is an insult to the people who work and are actually paying taxes to help get rid of this problem. Similar with the public sector strikes again only a few months back. Yet I work in the private sector. I don't get a pention, or many of the perks of the job. You don't see private sector workers strike every five minutes because the goverenment is trying to fix what is broken.

See this is the problem. You look at workers who have more rights than you and you think "Hey, that's not fair. They don't deserve those rights if I can't have them." when you should be thinking, "Hey, that's not fair. I deserve those rights too. We should fight for them."

How about a new strategy guys: Instead of complaining, live with it! It's unlikely that the problem will go away in the short term, and the sooner that governments can sort out debts and get the cash flow crisis fixed, the better for all of us.

To quote Grand Buffet. "You think it's carved in stone. You think it can't be changed. That kind of thinking is what keeps you in your *bleep*ing chains."

quote Fatal Error

quote Halo_Asassin

quote Fatal Error

Ok, so those people can leave America, and then what? Suddenly income distribution is right where you want it...except now we don't have shit for jobs and the economy sucks.

I don't want them to leave. An upper class is an essential part of any healthy economy. I'm just saying that the income disparity is too large and should be shrunk through government regulation and unions.

Yeah, and I am telling you that is never going to happen. The rich can just get up and move elsewhere if they dislike our economic policies and have no qualms doing so when our economy demands lower prices more than anything else. What are unions going to do, exactly? Labor unions often jack up the prices of goods and services with little else to show for it, which doesn't seem beneficial considering we already lose tons of jobs overseas due to inflated prices for american labor. We already have ridiculously high income taxes for the upper class compared to the rest of the world, and our corporate taxes are just as absurd compared to everywhere else. Jobs get shipped overseas so companies can remain competitive and sell products cheaply here in the states, but everyone demands jobs without realizing that it will jack up the cost of goods even more. I say it time and time again: people are too shortsighted to recognize the flaws of this movement, and the perpetual ignorance is only going to harm our economy.

Seriously, you can hate the upper class all you want, but what you're demanding isn't only unrealistic, it wouldn't even help matters any.

This overwhelming fear that the rich will up and leave if we don't pander to their every desire is a lie propagated by the mainstream media owned by, guess who, the rich.