Q&A, Feedback, Suggestions, Requests...

I can make my peace with the first post rule. I disagree with it since in all honesty I see the forums purpose as generating intelligent discussion and to me if a thread does that then that's all that matters. If a shitty first post has some amazing concepts but its just badly worded or not really stimulating discussion in and of itself, yet the nature of the topic means people start discussing it, then that's fine to me. But it's not my job to say what the purpose of the forums is, and if presentation is that important to the mods then that's their call.

It's not a BAD rule per se, and at the end of the day it takes two minutes to write a post with some of your opinions and discussion starters in so it shouldn't be a problem (in theory, I can imagine people just not bothering in practice) but it does nevertheless feel like unnecessary "red tape" to me. But that's not my call and like I said I can make my peace with it.

Recent measures I absolutely disagree with is closing posts when arguments begin to get circular and repeat themselves. I'm sorry but what's the problem there? If the people debating have no problem going round in circles for a bit then why should the mods? It's not like every post is the same and sometimes these things are bound to go in circles for a while. Alot of the time new members chip in and the same arguments happen again with new members. At the end of the day I don't get it, if it's still intelligent discussion then what's the problem, are the mods getting bored reading it or something? And even circular arguments inevitably bring up new points every now and then. The R&DGE thread was SO much fun and its gotta be one of the most successful threads, despite its occasional circular nature I know me and alot of other members had alot of fun debating in that thread and at the end of the day what's wrong with that.

I think those threads got alot of attention for this forum as well, they were such popular discussion issues that people came here just for that topic but then found other ones on here, thus bringing the forum alot of activity. I think by closing these the mods are killing this forum and making it less interesting. I used to come here loads from 06 to about 08, and the forum was amazing in the times of Rome and Koloth and a combination of these measures like closing threads that become circular arguments for a while, stringent restrictions on first posts, and general low tolerance levels for thread topics are just killing the activity in this place AND conversely generating less discussion (and therefore less intelligent discussion which is what I thought this thread was for).

I'm not necessarily criticizing the mod team, while I don't know Wo and Curt I think Chirovette is one of if not THE best moderators on neoseeker, I hung out in his forums ALOT back from 02 to about 08 (notably the GTA forums) and they were just so well modded, which makes me think maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick with this forum. Maybe theyre trying to make it smaller and more niche with less members and activity but more focus? I dont know. But personally I dont like the direction its taken, and if its intentional from the mods then I guess I have to say, well, thats their choice and I respect it. If its unintentional then I say lets try and fix it!

quote ChiroVette

It's up to you NOT US!

Its not though, is it. You're still deciding the metrics of success/failure in a way I and others don't agree with. You say it's an insurmountable problem if an argument is circular but I don't think any of us see it that way. I see it more as an unavoidable side effect of an amazing and engrossing discussion. I'm happy if it becomes circular. It doesn't seem to be a problem with anyone but the mods because while many people may argue circularly there are many who don't and enjoy things thoroughly. Furthermore these debates by their nature are never going to go anywhere, the ethics of abortion are being discussed in the highest circles and they haven't made it anywhere, you can't expect a little discussion on the Internet to best them and make progress can you?

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quote No Vacancy

quote ChiroVette

As for the point that Mastix brought up

Hey, I brought it up

lol Sorry, honey. Do you need a hug?

Yes

quote robotbear

quote No Vacancy

To be honest Chiro it seems like every member I've talked to or seen talk about this issue is against it.

I'm for it. And I understand perfectly why they do it. Afterall, these guys were here when it was run by Rome and Koloth and saw the same topics that become circular here be circular there, but they went on for, how long was the one religious one? didn't it have like 15 installments and every one of them was exactly the same. I know I stopped going to most of those threads that I know are just going to be circular, because not reading silver's posts makes it so much easier to not get sucked into the circular death trap that is arguing those topics with him.

So how about you stay away from the threads if you don't enjoy the state of them and let those who don't mind it discuss them, rather than saying "I don't like it so shut it down".

Noones ever going to stop them being circular, it just will always happen that way by nature of the topics. So it's a choice between leaving them open and tackling any rule breaking and disrespecting on a case by case basis as should happen with kidding anyway, and just shutting everything down so even the people that enjoyed them can't use them anymore.

quote ChiroVette

And this is what I don't get...this right here! How is it an amazing discussion when the SAME THREE PEOPLE repeat the same points over and over and over again and the discussion stays stagnant? I don't get it. It is like a frustrating exercise in mundane, circuitous futility.

But if those three people enjoy it then what's the problem? You're not exactly increasing the accessibility by closing it down are you? You're literally gaining nothing other than shutting the few people out who enjoyed it.

And anyway sometimes it was the same three people for a short while but inevitably others came in and commented and started some other discussion. Back in 08 I used to pop in and pop out the whole time (on my alt account in case anyone tries to say NO U DIDN'T!) and it wasn't a problem for me.

To be honest Chiro I don't remember you participating much in those threads up until I left neoseeker at the end of 2008. Maybe it's just my faulty memory so don't take it as an insult. And if this is true then I think maybe you didn't see the few gems that made the circular arguments worthwhile. Entering a circular thread it's a great and interesting challenge to break it and get your opponent to a place where he can't argue back. I remember one guy doing that with both bobbyg2 in the evolution thread and massive attack. I happen to be a good friend of that member and he has told me that these new policies will mean he is never coming back to this forum, which is a damn shame.

And actually Justin Time has hit the nail on the head btw. It never felt a problem being circular and I guess it's because it wasn't truly circular it just looked like it. Hence why I wonder if Chiro not discussing much in them (again no offence meant if I remembered it wrong) maybe leads to a misperception of what it was actually like? At the end of the day if many people keep posting with intelligent posts, then it's not bothering them, so why should it be a problem? Have you made it better by getting rid of those threads altogether? And how so?

Honestly I think that this policy sucks and I can't see myself posting here any more while it's in force.

To be honest Byzantine I've noticed no more new members joining than before. All I've seen is all the old members have left and this forum dying.

Chirovette please give the detractors the same respect as we give you. I have not missed the point of the rules. It might be easy to brush it under the table by saying that but it's not true.

The way I interpret it the policy is because these threads descent into circular arguments that consist of atheists bashing theists and vice versa with no attempt to make any headway, and amongst other things can intimidate new members. I disagree with closing it on this basis. Where have I missed the point?

quote ChiroVette

So in other words, No Vacancy, what you are saying is that you are against fair and equitable compromise. You think it needs to be your way or the highway. If I had your same predilection for a zero-compromise solution, then I would have simply abolished the threads all together rather than allowing those featured threads to go their THIRTY pages or allowing several of them. The difference between us, to be quite honest, is that we are being fair and giving you guys your threads in a compromising manner. Think about it.

I'd appreciate my points of view not being extremised to avoid shades of grey. It's not my way or the highway. Such a statement only applies when demands are being made and I'm not demanding anything. I'm providing my point of view which happens to be extreme. If 90% of people agree then it's no longer extreme. If 0% of people agree then it's extreme and you follow the majority. Such issues aren't my concern, they're yours, you have to decide where the majority lies. All I've done so far is give you my honest opinion and let you take it into account when making your decision. I haven't been telling you what you should do.

I wouldn't even have elaborated to that extent had you not told me I was missing the point and trying to be difficult in locking my jaw on an aspect and not letting go.

And Chirovette again there's no need to lament that people ignored your self moderation suggestion, if someone ignores it chances are they don't believe it's worth responding to. It's not like I'm deliberately ignoring a gem of a suggestion simply to remain a thorn in your side.

It won't work because there will always be people who ignore it. I can't control anyone but my owns actions. It's no good me moderating myself if a hundred people refuse to, it's not a viable solution to your problem because I can work till the cows come home trying to hold back extremists only for you to tank the thread because I couldn't steer a discussion of many people off my own back.