Q&A, Feedback, Suggestions, Requests...

I get where you're coming from ChiroVette. I've been coming here on and off for several years, so I've definitely seen what you're talking about. But I also don't see that closing the thread is at all a clear impetus to foster better discussion the next time around. The fact is, controversial topics will almost inevitably attract members who will post dogmatic and unproductive circular crap, but what I loved about DG's thread was that underneath that there were sub-topics that were running all the way through. For example I was discussing the philosophical nature of monism/dualism and truth, and clarifying our thoughts on various philosophers with Byzantine up to page 29 of the thread. It was great fun and I really felt like that was moving forward. Further more Bakka was present in the late stages as well. If their departure is meant to be an indicator of bad discussion, then this discussion was still fine. The point is, have you seen any improvement in discussion by shutting these threads down? You're right. Both atheists and religious folk were posting a lot of unproductive nonsense in that thread, but the controversy provided a subtext for more intelligent discussion underneath, which I feel got tossed out with the bath water. Again I'll be the first to sympathize with your frustrations about the refusal to have round-table discussion on both sides. I'm no fan of that myself. I just feel like closing these threads doesn't prevent that from happening. It just kills all discussion entirely. I guess I don't get how shutting down all discussion is a good solution to preventing bad discussion. It seems to be doing more harm than good.

Mister Macphisto, I really don't agree that the threads are inaccessible to people because of circular topics. I drop into them all the time, and in fact I think everyone does. Sure you have to read a bit to catch up, but that's true of any thread. And even so, there's always the general topic to respond to if you don't want to read all the posts. You can just drop in and give you opinion, and usually people absorb it into the discussion. I don't know where you're getting the inaccessibility idea. I remember back in the day this place was teeming with threads that were controversial and it was far more active than it is now. That made the place more accessible to me and more fun. Right now I only come here when I see the one discussion that interests me that seems pretty active. But those are few and far between because none of these topics that generate a lot of active participation are here anymore. I guess I feel like myself and others are being excluded from the forum because some people feel this place is above certain topics and discussions. Surely if people don't like the topic of a thread, they can start a different thread with a more specific discussion that will attract that demographic.

quote Wo Daddy Wo

Some really great posts over the past couple of pages!!! So refreshing to see the members are still passionate about the forum and its rules. Bottom line is that this place desperately needs a difference of opinion to flourish. Whether it's regarding abortion or it's regarding how we handle opening and closing of threads. We've always promoted debate and this thread is no exception. Please continue to express thoughts on how the forum is being run, both pros and cons. I can assure every post is being reviewed and taken into consideration. This forum has tweaked the rules year after year and we're always on the lookout for ways to improve. We will never be able to please everyone but trust us that we are considering the bigger picture whenever changes are made.

Any time man. Haha. Seriously, thank you for continuing to listen even when we're badgering you. Even if you don't change the rules, it's incredibly gratifying that you guys have taken us seriously and responded thoroughly and with courtesy. I just think all three of you deserve props for that. I can only hope I would be as patient.

ChiroVette, ironically, I feel like you're missing a lot of the important points of my posts. I guess both sides feel a bit of a disconnect. I'm glad you've found a supporter in robotbear. Look, I get the bigger picture you guys have in mind. I'm just not convinced you're going about it effectively. I really don't feel like these threads keep any more people out than they attract. When I was young and innocent and I meandered into the forum six (almost seven) years ago, the threads that dragged me in were the controversial ones. I posted in all of those non-stop. I was new, and my thoughts then looking back were idiotic, but it was fun. Then when I got comfortable posting there, I drifted off into other threads while I waited for replies in the ones that dragged me in. There I discussed more specific topics and got into the other threads. The controversial topics brought me in, the other topics kept me busy. I don't know if others share that story, but having that anecdote makes it tough for me to grasp the feelings of members who come in and are for some strange reason intimidated by these controversial threads they don't even need to look at if they're really that troubled.

I honestly hadn't considered the argument robotbear put forth about feeling like a kid tugging at the skirts of an angry adult. But isn't that intimidation more a problem of the attitude people post with? What bothers me most is when I or someone else posts something and some pompous jerk responds wielding a derisive rhetoric and an arrogant attitude as if to look down on the person. This is often coupled with personal attacks and ad hominems. That really bothers me, and that's what I feel should be punished and prevented. There should be strict punishments for people who respond in that manner. It's that kind of antagonistic behavior that did, I agree, push me away from the forum back in the day. And it is very common to controversial threads because you're quite right, when things get circular people get impatient. One thing that's particularly bothersome to me is when people emphasize certain phrases in caps as if to yell at someone. It's petty, but I really do think that should be against forum rules. It's an intimidation tactic and it's meant to make the person back down by making them insecure. It's like raising your voice in a debate and it's just feather ruffling. You guys have made the mistake of blaming the topic for the people's problem. I think a lot of members want to talk about abortion. I personally don't give a damn about that topic, but if people want to talk about it for 1000 pages, I think they should be allowed. As long as they do it in a civil manner and don't resort to intimidation. People shouldn't chew other members out. If people can't debate calmly, they shouldn't be here. Plain and simple.

But when this kind of thing happens I feel like you guys should step in and make those people who are arguing in such a manner stop. You shouldn't stop the whole discussion. That's asking a lot more effort from you than you already put into this forum, I suppose. I do understand that it might be much simpler to merely cut the threads and prevent angry idiot arguments from developing in the first place. If you're going for the simple solution, I guess I'd have to concede, you've probably found it. I just feel like that leaves a lot of people unsatisfied.

As for the first post issue, I feel pretty convinced. I can accept that the first post thing can be very annoying. So you've got one convert there.

No Vacancy, I'm right here with you man. We may be alone on this front, but we stand together. Haha.

Chiro, you've got understand why we don't consider that a compromise. Again, we're unsatisfied with the way things are, not the way you want things to be (though that would be particularly upsetting). It's like you're a school administrator in Texas who's saying he's already compromised by letting us have science courses in the first place, and that we should stop demanding an Evolution course. If it were up to him, we wouldn't have that abominable science class in the first place. We're not going to set the terms for compromise by your worst-case-scenario. The people complaining here were never a party to that compromise, and we would like our voices to be considered in that decision.

Even the Anime Forum gets the spam bot plague. Usually I get an email notification for new threads, so I can always quickly get rid of them. They're obnoxious but they're not so bad if taken care of quickly.

Chiro, would a possible solution to the abuse problem be that you specify that self-moderation reports should only be used if you're in the position of a third party mediator? As in, as a rule, you don't report someone in a set of returns that you're a part of. I imagine even the best of us might sometimes not realize they're having a circular argument. It's not a perfect solution, but I think that policy would help.

quote Cyanide

It's not just the religious threads; It's ALL of the threads in this forum.

Again. Create a different thread. You aren't obligated to participate in any of the threads you for some reason find displeasing. You can create any topic you like, and you're certain already to have myself and Bakka, who also has shown interest, involved. We'd love to see some current events threads. Open one up.

Chiro, I was waiting for someone to go there. High five.

Studly Cannon, trolling or not, I'll stand for your right to keep that thread. No chip on my shoulder.

I'd like to point out that the guy created the exact same thread in my forum. He's a bit of a concern to me as well. I brought him up with the mod team so we'll see where that goes, Byzantine.

Reading over the thread, I think it died because it wasn't actually controversial. At least, not among our current forum visitors. I basically agreed with what everyone had said, and there wasn't any push back to argue against. It was basically a bunch of head nodding and tired arguments that couldn't go much further without someone advancing an attack on them. Can't have a controversial topic without the other side of the controversy.