Challenge - Give proof for your religion of choice WITHOUT using scripture - Page 26

Ok, Mr. Massive. Thank you.

DG

I edited my post earlier, but you replied while I was typing, so I'll just put it here:

quote LinKing12

Your demand of proof shows that you want answers, but you also seem to want someone else to give them to you. This is on you, Mr. DG, not me or anyone else, for you to understand. Open your Bible, search it and see what the basis is for such beliefs, if you are really interested in finding it. Jesus said at Luke 11:9, 10- "Accordingly I say to you, Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and YOU will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you. For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it will be opened."

No one else can do those things for you. But you can be aided. It may take some time, effort, and humility on your part, but the rewards are worth it. I am speaking this way because I feel this discussion is not helping very much for you to understand. I wish I could be more clear, but without using Scripture (which I admit I kinda cheated just now) I cannot hope to give you a complete answer.

I'm sorry, I am apparently misinformed as to gravity. But, my stance is still within the above quote.

If you look in the Bible, Mr. DG, you'll find evidence in it that correlate with our times, such as pressing world conditions, historical evidence, and even scientific evidence. Just looking at the intricacy, variety, and exactness of our universe could be cited as testament to intelligent design (in fact it has been by many scientists and even former atheists). I don't believe this discussion was ever about simply proving that Jehovah is real; it was about explaining the basis for our beliefs as a whole.

I challenge you, Mr. DG, talk to one of Jehovah's Witnesses about this. They may not be able to convince you, but they'll be better equipped to discuss this with you and answer your questions than I can over the Internet. You might even do well to ask former atheists and scientists why they changed to believe in intelligent design, despite their knowledge of your so-called "proof" and the "circular reasoning" you described.

Ok, Mr. DG, well I can certainly respect that. I feel quite differently, but that's just my firm belief. If you ever get the chance (and I'm almost certain that you will), talking to one of Jehovah's Witnesses, especially former atheists and scientists who've changed to believing in intelligent design, will help you to get more insight into your questions and contentions. Unfortunately, I cannot wholly answer them. I don't even know the difference between the theory and law of gravity

Sorry for that, and I really do hope that you find whatever it is that you are looking for.

EDIT: Didn't see your edit. And certainly. I'll give you a few Scriptures to consider. One moment...

Ok, here you go, Mr. DG. And yes, I am merely showing how Bible prophecy and statements made in it are indeed true, both in the past and in modern times, thus building its credibility for many.

Historical:
In Isaiah’s inspired restoration prophecy concerning Jerusalem and its temple, this Persian ruler had been named as the one appointed by Jehovah God to effect the overthrow of Babylon and the release of the Jews who would be exiled there. (Isaiah 44:26–45:7) Although this prophecy had been recorded well over one and a half centuries before Cyrus’ rise to power and though the desolation of Judah evidently took place before Cyrus was even born, still Jehovah declared that Cyrus would act as His “shepherd” on behalf of the Jewish people. (Isaiah 44:28; compare Romans 4:17.) By virtue of this advance appointment, Cyrus was called Jehovah’s “anointed one” (a form of the Hebrew ma‧shi′ach, messiah, and the Greek khri‧stos′, christ). (Isaiah 45:1) God’s ‘calling him by his name’ (Isaiah 45:4) at that early date does not imply that He gave Cyrus his name at birth, but means that Jehovah foreknew that such a man by that name would arise and that Jehovah’s call to him would be, not anonymous, but direct, specific, by name.
Thus, unknown to King Cyrus, who was likely a pagan devotee of Zoroastrianism, Jehovah God had been figuratively ‘taking Cyrus’ right hand’ to lead or strengthen him, girding him and preparing and smoothing the way for his accomplishing the divine purpose: the conquest of Babylon. (Isaiah 45:1, 2, 5) As the One “telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done,” Almighty God had shaped the circumstances in human affairs for fully carrying out his counsel. He had called Cyrus “from the sunrising,” from Persia (to the E of Babylon), where Cyrus’ favorite capital of Pasargadae was built, and Cyrus was to be like “a bird of prey” in swiftly pouncing upon Babylon. (Isaiah 46:10, 11) It is of note that, according to The Encyclopaedia Britannica (1910, Vol. X, p. 454), “the Persians bore an eagle fixed to the end of a lance, and the sun, as their divinity, was also represented upon their standards, which . . . were guarded with the greatest jealousy by the bravest men of the army.”

The Bible prophecies relating to Cyrus’ conquest of Babylon foretold that its rivers would be dried up and its gates left unshut, that there would be a sudden invasion of the city and a lack of resistance on the part of Babylon’s soldiers. (Isaiah 44:27; 45:1, 2; Jeremiah 50:35-38; 51:30-32) Herodotus describes a deep, wide moat encompassing Babylon, relating that numerous bronze (or copper) gates provided entrance through the interior walls along the Euphrates River, which bisected the city. Laying siege to the city, according to Herodotus (I, 191, 192), Cyrus went “drawing off the river by a canal into the lake [the artificial lake said to have been made earlier by Queen Nitocris], which was till now a marsh, he made the stream to sink till its former channel could be forded. When this happened, the Persians who were posted with this intent made their way into Babylon by the channel of the Euphrates, which had now sunk about to the height of the middle of a man’s thigh. Now if the Babylonians had known beforehand or learnt what Cyrus was planning, they would have suffered the Persians to enter the city and brought them to a miserable end; for then they would have shut all the gates that opened on the river and themselves mounted up on to the walls that ran along the river banks, and so caught their enemies as in a trap. But as it was, the Persians were upon them unawares, and by reason of the great size of the city—so say those who dwell there—those in the outer parts of it were overcome, yet the dwellers in the middle part knew nothing of it; all this time they were dancing and making merry at a festival . . . till they learnt the truth but too well. [Compare Daniel 5:1-4, 30; Jeremiah 50:24; 51:31, 32.] Thus was Babylon then for the first time taken.”


Pressing world conditions:
I'll avoid the long explanation this time and let you see for yourself. Look at Matthew 24:3-14 and 1 Timothy 3:1-5, and note how this correlates to our day. Another interesting historical text to research is this:

Paul’s counsel to “press on to maturity” proved to be lifesaving to the first-century Christians living in Jerusalem and Judea. Those who heeded it had the keen spiritual discernment needed to recognize the signal Jesus had given for them to “begin fleeing to the mountains.” When they saw “the disgusting thing that causes desolation . . . standing in a holy place,” that is, the armies of Rome surrounding and penetrating Jerusalem, they knew that it was time to flee. (Matthew 24:15, 16) Heeding Jesus’ prophetic warning, Christians fled the city of Jerusalem prior to its destruction and, according to ecclesiastical historian Eusebius, settled in the city of Pella in the mountainous region of Gilead. They thereby avoided the worst disaster for Jerusalem in recorded history.

Scientific:
Read Isaiah 40:22 and Job 26:7. Relatively simple, but does show scientific harmony, since these writings were done when such notions were unheard of.

This is not to convert you or anything Just some food for thought, and some things for you to do your own personal research on. Don't just take my word for it; I've quoted the Watchtower magazine in this post, along with another Bible encyclopedia called Insight on the Scriptures. Both of these are published by Jehovah's Witnesses, and since you may or may not trust those sources, again, search it out yourself, Mr. DG. Though it may or may not convince you of the Bible's authenticity, I'm confident you'll find satisfying answers.

Yes, the Bible was compiled together as one complete text sometime after those events. But the individual books were completed at different times.
For example, the Israelites living in the time of King Josiah (who ruled not long before Babylon conquered Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E.) evidently had the writings of Moses available to them through scrolls; Josiah made marked changes in Israel because of them, relating to the removal of false worship (2 Chronicles 34:8-28).

Are you familiar with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Researching that should bring up some stimulating information for you.

quote Massive Attack

quote LinKing12

I don't respond to such inflammatory rebuttals, Mr. Massive. And it's the law of gravity, by the way.

And nice deflection. Feel free to respond to the 99% of the post which isn't inflammatory. Unless you don't have a response, of course, which I would understand.

Uh, no.

When you insult someone and they refuse to answer you, it is NOT the same thing as a deflection. You may not agree with LinKing12's reasoning and responses, and I know I usually don't, but when you make a statement like you did, you open yourself up to having "the other 99%" of your post that isn't inflammatory ignored completely.

quote Arjy

The conversion of energy still holds. No energy is lost, the atoms that make you up stick around and move into the soil and are ingested by various animals. The "energy" of a human is simply a misnomer, the energy produced by a human body is all eventually converted to heat (not destroyed) and eventually upon death the metabolic processes that produce this energy stop. No energy nor matter is lost. And we don't go to an afterlife.

Truthfully, it is supposition to assume that the energy from consciousness does not produce some sort of an afterlife. Not that you are definitely wrong, mind you, it is certainly a plausible argument to make. However, your opinion and belief is that "the energy of a human is a misnomer," which is not the same as fact. Also, who's to say that if there is an afterlife it is produced or maintained from energy we can even perceive at this level of our technological evolution? The point is that there is no proof one way or the other whether or not an afterlife exists, so believing in one is no less viable than not believing in one.

The only trouble that people of faith get into in subjects like this is when they act as if somehow their arguments for an afterlife, for instance, are somehow scientific or empirically justified, which may be what you were elucidating in your post to begin with, and if so I agree. People who discuss things like an afterlife, God, Goddess, and spirituality should, in my opinion, limit their ideas to faith and belief, not science and empiricism.

Edit: For instance: The woman who has just given birth to a beautiful baby looks into her child's eyes and sees the face of God and feels, in that moment, that all the truth of the universe has been revealed to her and that life is eternal, and God must exist, has a beautiful revelation, one that she might even share with the world. BUT the moment she starts trying to use science to argue her revelation, it is a slippery slope at best. I love hearing stories like the one I just mentioned, because they are very faith-based and resonate with me on a profound level, BUT of course this is not proof of anything in any way.