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Fatherbrain30 Insanity Hooked on Neo since: Jul 2004	Aug 12, 10 at 3:52am ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	Log in to remove this sponsored message That's unregulated capitalism for you, and where the Republican's money is -------------------
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silverboner Bored Resident Neo total posts: 2721 since: Dec 2005	Aug 12, 10 at 4:33pm ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	quote AnonymousGuy I'm sorry, but 1.3 percent is a really tiny number, a fact which you seem to be conveniently ignoring. Illegal immigrants only account for 1.3 percent of medical spending... how does that constitute a burden on health care again? In CA, that amounts to $1.4Billion. You claimed immigrants pay for themselves, yet I don't see where you have bothered to show that they pay even enough to cover their medical costs. Let alone everything else. quote AnonymousGuy And if immigrants hadn't account for 25% of that hospitals spending (which is still only 1/4th, a pretty low number itself) the hospital would probably still have closed, because the other 75% were legal americans. Where's your hatred of legal americans here silver? Because they were 3 times more responsible for those hospitals closing than the illegal immigrants. Its not about hate. When you can get over that, we might make more progress. 1.4billion Dollars. You really think that money couldn't be put to good use helping AMERICANS that need medical coverage? quote AnonymousGuy I'm sorry, but comparing murderers, rapists, and thieves to swimming across a river in violation of bureaucratic red tape, are hardly comparable offenses. Get a grip dude. That's right, like Massive, continue to ignore what is stated and just make shit up as you go. I didn't compare rapists to immigrants. I was talking about responsibility, justifications, blame. When you actually address what I said, we will get further in this conversation. quote AnonymousGuy Again, get a grip. We are not dealing with total anarchy here. We're dealing with people swimming a river and seeking a better life. Drug dealers also seek a better life. So do pimps, and human traffickers. "Seeking a better life" has to be done in a legal way, within the confines of the law. You can't justify their actions whether its a drug dealer, human trafficker or a Mexican National crossing the border illegally because they want a better life. quote AnonymousGuy I'm sorry, and the holocaust never happened right? So you aren't going to prove they are starving? Emotional pleading isn't going to get you anywhere. quote AnonymousGuy That's a movie, Silver. Get a grip on reality please. A movie that has a very real message. One that is rooted in the core of humanity. quote 2. Have a heart? What about all those Americans that need Dialysis treatment and they didn't get to use Grady's services, and no longer will? Where is your heart for them? Do you really think someone that shouldn't even in the US should get priority? quote AnonymousGuy There are other hospitals, Really, that is what you are relying on? And so when multiple hospitals close, and the number of services shrink with the aging population, people are just going to get better care at other hospitals which are now over-crowded? Nonsense. quote AnonymousGuy By the same token, you can hold our government responsible for illegal immigration because it refuses to reform immigration laws, which currently make immigrating to the United States ridiculously complicated, expensive, and time-consuming. I am more then willing to (also) blame the Federal Government. They are definitely part of the problem. I am also in favor of changing immigration laws, and having migrant work visas. But that doesn't mean that illegal immigration is justified. quote AnonymousGuy Also, mexico has a high GDP, of course, all of which circles back around to the government and elite rich. You're average citizen sees next to none of it. Citing that source does not make your point. South Africa is also the number one exporter of diamonds in the world: We aren't talking about South Africa. You bring up the Holocaust and now South Africa? You're reaching. Prove Mexicans are "starving", particularly the ones crossing the border. quote Massive Attack You absolutely did compare illegal immigration to other heinous crimes. Don't try to deny it. What a crock of shit. I don't have to try to deny it, because your claims have no basis for it. Do yourself a favor and look up the words "Justification" and "Prioritization". When you learn the difference, then perhaps you can address what I actually said. quote MA In this quote, you compare illegal immigration to spousal abuse, child abuse, dealing drugs and human trafficking. Those two sentences I bolded heavily imply the comparison. What did I compare? According to the quote you provided, according to my own words, how are child abusers, drug dealers, human trafficers and illegal immigrants alike/different? My own words MA. Don't make shit up. Quote me. How are they alike/different according to me? Put up or shut up! quote MA In any case, when you consider how vehemently I argued for the health care reform bill when it passed earlier this year, I absolutely do have a heart for impoverished American citizens who are uninsured and can't afford dialysis treatments. The fact that they were born in the United States, however, doesn't make their life worth any more than that of someone born in Mexico. This isn't about human value. To make it out that way is missing the FACT that America has limited resources, and this is about distribution of those resources. Its also about responsibility, and who has what responsibility. Americans have a responsibility towards Americans, not Mexican Nationals. And I don't mean Americans don't have ANY responsibility to other humans, so do yourself the favor and don't build that strawman. But the responsibility we are talking about, feeding the poor, helping those in need, Government assistance for food, shelter and clothing, and medical care, for economic opportunity, and prosperity. When it comes to that responsibility Americans are responsible for Americans. Americans are NOT responsible for South Africans, OR Iranians, or the French, or Chinese, or any other nationalist including Mexicans. ------------------- Evil necessitates God. Do you know what is so important about the number 447,225,917,218,507,401,284,016mg/cc??? Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.
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Massive Attack Beeroshima: let's get bombed Neo: Essential total posts: 11652 neopoints: 202 since: Apr 2003	Aug 12, 10 at 5:44pm ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	quote silverboner But the responsibility we are talking about, feeding the poor, helping those in need, Government assistance for food, shelter and clothing, and medical care, for economic opportunity, and prosperity. When it comes to that responsibility Americans are responsible for Americans. Americans are NOT responsible for South Africans, OR Iranians, or the French, or Chinese, or any other nationalist including Mexicans. And that's what Jesus taught you, right? Like I said, you may as well burn your Bible for how much your views align with what it says. You are an extreme nationalist, which is exactly the opposite of what Christ taught. quote silverboner quote AnonymousGuy Again, get a grip. We are not dealing with total anarchy here. We're dealing with people swimming a river and seeking a better life. Drug dealers also seek a better life. So do pimps, and human traffickers. "Seeking a better life" has to be done in a legal way, within the confines of the law. You can't justify their actions whether its a drug dealer, human trafficker or a Mexican National crossing the border illegally because they want a better life. And AGAIN in the post above you compare illegal immigrants to pimps and human traffickers. Do you see the bolded part? That's where the comparison is. You do understand what a "comparison" is, right? Since it is now apparent that you are far too stupid to understand my point about this, I'll make it painfully explicit. You compare illegal immigrants to drug traffickers in that both are "seeking a better life" and that both are equally in the wrong. Therefore you imply that the crime of illegal immigration is just as severe as that of human trafficking. Have you ever taken an ethics course, silver? Arbitrary laws cannot be used as determinants of the morality of a certain type of action. A human trafficker deprives other humans of their liberty, privacy, dignity, and right to self-determination. An illegal immigrant does nothing of this sort of extremity. So please, do yourself a favor and stop comparing the two. Also stop denying that you have compared the two because that's now the second time that you've done so. Believe it or not, it IS about human value. Humans matter more than countries. Mexico is our neighbor and proximity DOES matter. Destitute people who live across the world may never have a chance of coming here simply because travel expenses would greatly exceed their income. Mexicans have the fortune of simply being able to drive/walk to escape extreme conditions. What, do you think that wealthy Mexicans who are already living cushy lifestyles in Mexico are hopping the border? I guess it's not so much "love thy neighbor" for you, it's more "love thy neighbor, but only if they're American." You may also stop saying that I've ignored what you've posted, as I've responded to virtually every point you've made in our debate. If anything, you're the one who has refused to address my points about the necessity of reforming immigration laws. And here's your evidence, which you yourself could have found by typing in "hunger in Mexico" into Google and clicking the first hit. quote According to the World Bank, 53 percent of Mexico’s population is poor (living on less than $2 per day), while close to 24 percent is extremely poor (living on less than $1 per day). These families are “foodinsecure,” meaning they cannot meet even their most basic nutritional needs for some or all of the year. Source In case you can't do the math, that's 77% of Mexico's population who are essentially starving and/or malnutritioned. Edit: Aug 12, 10
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silverboner Bored Resident Neo total posts: 2721 since: Dec 2005	Aug 12, 10 at 6:57pm ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	quote Massive Attack And that's what Jesus taught you, right? Like I said, you may as well burn your Bible for how much your views align with what it says. You are an extreme nationalist, which is exactly the opposite of what Christ taught. Since when does American Government bow to the words of Jesus? Is the Federal Government supposed to adhere to religion? Didn't think so. Separation of Church and State. Its the "State", that I am talking about, and their responsibility. Bringing up religion, specifically my religion, as though it dictates Government and Government responsibility is in serious error. quote Massive Attack You compare illegal immigrants to drug traffickers in that both are "seeking a better life" and that both are equally in the wrong. AM I wrong? Can we reasonable conclude that both "seeking a better life" and are they both illegal? I would congratulate you but the association you just made doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that human traffickers and illegal immigrants are both law breakers. I would expect anyone with at least a secondary school education to understand that all law breakers are law breakers. Are you really going to crucify me because I pointed out that "seeking a better life" is a reason for a number of activities, no matter the severity? If that is all you have, you are reaching way past legitimate conversation. quote Massive Attack Therefore you imply that the crime of illegal immigration is just as severe as that of human trafficking. Ah yes. This is where you have to jump to some bullshit conclusion that has NO BASIS WHAT SO EVER IN ANYTHING THAT I SAID. ASS/U/ME quote Massive Attack Have you ever taken an ethics course, silver? Arbitrary laws cannot be used as determinants of the morality of a certain type of action. Where did I say anything about morality? My comments pertain to the legality of actions, not the morality. And to save yourself the strawman which I can for-see coming, no, I don't believe that legality and morality are the same, nor do I even attempt to ensure that all my morals are transferred to law. In fact, in many cases, I would allow liberties(legality) that contradict my morality. quote Massive Attack Believe it or not, it IS about human value. Not for me its not. Because I don't devalue Mexicans, or hold Americans to some higher value. And trying to make me out as though I have hate or begrudge illegals, or that I devalue them, or that illegal immigration is as severe as rape or murder is just crap. Its a complete and total avoidance of the issues I raised. You won't deal with the points I raised, so instead you make it out to be something that its not. quote Massive Attack Humans matter more than countries. I agree, but its too idealistic and impractical and logistically impossible for the US to just allow any sad story to cross our borders. Thus we have to have some regulation, and border control. And we cannot just allow people to cross our borders when they feel like it. And that doesn't even address the post 9/11 security issues. None of that however justifies breaking current laws. quote Massive Attack You may also stop saying that I've ignored what you've posted, as I've responded to virtually every point you've made in our debate. If anything, you're the one who has refused to address my points about the necessity of reforming immigration laws. Bullshit. quote SilverBoner I am more then willing to (also) blame the Federal Government. They are definitely part of the problem. I am also in favor of changing immigration laws, and having migrant work visas. But that doesn't mean that illegal immigration is justified. And what about your claim that 1.3" which amounts to $1.4billion in CA alone is a "drop in the bucket". I didn't get a response. quote Massive Attack quote me The Mexican government should be held accountable for its poor management of its people and finances, but the people themselves aren't to blame. So why do we blame murders, rapists and thieves? So people aren't to blame for breaking laws?Why blame the kid that is truant or sexually harasses fellow students? You haven't actually answered these question either. Instead you keep going on about some bullshit comparison while simultaneously ignoring that you just removed all personal responsibility of one's actions because of government mis-management and the people are essentially poor. What about your claim that illegals are only 5% the population in the US, and the tactic of spreading out the illegals across the entire US Population completely ignoring that illegals are not distributed equally across the US, or even CA? You didn't respond that that either. quote silverboner quote MA In this quote, you compare illegal immigration to spousal abuse, child abuse, dealing drugs and human trafficking. Those two sentences I bolded heavily imply the comparison. What did I compare? According to the quote you provided, according to my own words, how are child abusers, drug dealers, human trafficers and illegal immigrants alike/different? My own words MA. Don't make shit up. Quote me. How are they alike/different according to me? Put up or shut up! You avoided this too. Granted you did come up with a different quote, but you didn't defend your accusation with the quote you already posted. quote Massive Attack And here's your evidence, which you yourself could have found by typing in "hunger in Mexico" into Google and clicking the first hit. Your claim, your burden. I linked to a site that showed Americans are hungry. Are Americans immigrating to Canada because they are starving? You really think I don't understand there are hungry people everywhere, even in one of the most wealthiest countries in the world? Yes, there are probably degrees of severity between Mexico and America, but that doesn't provide enough basis for your emotional plea. ------------------- Evil necessitates God. Do you know what is so important about the number 447,225,917,218,507,401,284,016mg/cc??? Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.
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Massive Attack Beeroshima: let's get bombed Neo: Essential total posts: 11652 neopoints: 202 since: Apr 2003	Aug 12, 10 at 7:35pm ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	quote silverboner Since when does American Government bow to the words of Jesus? Is the Federal Government supposed to adhere to religion? Didn't think so. Separation of Church and State. Its the "State", that I am talking about, and their responsibility. Bringing up religion, specifically my religion, as though it dictates Government and Government responsibility is in serious error. Oh, I was under the impression that you were arguing your own perspective, but apparently you're now a spokesman for the federal government. You're right, the federal government doesn't bow to the words of Jesus. They have immigration laws on the books which, believe it or not, are enforced when applicable. But this thread is about the Arizona immigration law, not the federal government. quote silverboner AM I wrong? Can we reasonable conclude that both "seeking a better life" and are they both illegal? I would congratulate you but the association you just made doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that human traffickers and illegal immigrants are both law breakers. I would expect anyone with at least a secondary school education to understand that all law breakers are law breakers. Are you really going to crucify me because I pointed out that "seeking a better life" is a reason for a number of activities, no matter the severity? If that is all you have, you are reaching way past legitimate conversation. Big bleeping deal. People who break these laws are lawbreakers too, which doesn't make the laws themselves any less flawed or stupid, nor does it change the persons' in question life cirumstances. Yes, all law breakers are law breakers. Thanks for the tautology lesson. quote silverboner Ah yes. This is where you have to jump to some bullshit conclusion that has NO BASIS WHAT SO EVER IN ANYTHING THAT I SAID. ASS/U/ME Yes it does. I call bullshit. There's absolutely no other reason to make the comparison at all. I'm sure you understand the concept of the punishment fitting the crime and that breaking the law is more understandable depending on the circumstances. Therefore, it's pointless to bring up the fact that human traffickers may also be seeking a better life for themselves when human trafficking is a far more heinous crime than illegal immigration, and the illegal immigrants in question happen to be extremely destitute and desperate. Also, drop the whole "ass/u/me" thing, it makes you look like a total bleeping retard. quote silverboner Where did I say anything about morality? My comments pertain to the legality of actions, not the morality. And to save yourself the strawman which I can for-see coming, no, I don't believe that legality and morality are the same, nor do I even attempt to ensure that all my morals are transferred to law. In fact, in many cases, I would allow liberties(legality) that contradict my morality. Arguing for the legality of a matter is a matter of conventional morality, while arguing for the principle of a matter is a matter of post-conventional morality. Hence the former argument is a lower form of argument and absolutely pointless. Get on my level, son. Do yourself a favor and read this. Try moving from stage 4/5 to stage 6. quote silverboner Not for me its not. Because I don't devalue Mexicans, or hold Americans to some higher value. And trying to make me out as though I have hate or begrudge illegals, or that I devalue them, or that illegal immigration is as severe as rape or murder is just crap. Its a complete and total avoidance of the issues I raised. You won't deal with the points I raised, so instead you make it out to be something that its not. I already told you that I've dealt with the points that you raised. Prove me otherwise. quote silverboner I agree, but its too idealistic and impractical and logistically impossible for the US to just allow any sad story to cross our borders. Thus we have to have some regulation, and border control. And we cannot just allow people to cross our borders when they feel like it. And that doesn't even address the post 9/11 security issues. None of that however justifies breaking current laws. I never suggested that we open the border. I've always argued for simplifying and streamlining our current immigration laws. Don't ass/u/me. quote silverboner And what about your claim that 1.3" which amounts to $1.4billion in CA alone is a "drop in the bucket". I didn't get a response. Bullshit. quote Massive Attack If California is in debt because of illegal immigrants then that's our government's fault for not reforming immigration laws. If U.S. citizens are uninsured and hospitals are closing because said uninsured persons can't pay for treatment, that is similarly our government's fault for not reforming our health care system and instead letting multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical and insurance companies have their way with us and collectively butt-bleep us. It's also our fault as a society for collectively valuing capitalism and money over human life. You don't have to believe me. Ask any bankruptcy lawyer what the number 1 cause of bankruptcy in the United States is and they'll tell you that it's astronomical medical bills. quote silverboner quote Massive Attack quote me The Mexican government should be held accountable for its poor management of its people and finances, but the people themselves aren't to blame. So why do we blame murders, rapists and thieves? So people aren't to blame for breaking laws?Why blame the kid that is truant or sexually harasses fellow students? Are you intentionally dense or were you born that way? Murder, rape, and stealing are heinous crimes. Illegal immigration is not a heinous crime. Sure, you could say that an illegal immigrant is a lawbreaker, but the fact that they broke the law is more than understandable when you consider how stupid our immigration laws are and what circumstances they come from. quote silverboner What about your claim that illegals are only 5% the population in the US, and the tactic of spreading out the illegals across the entire US Population completely ignoring that illegals are not distributed equally across the US, or even CA? You didn't respond that that either. Of course I didn't. I never said that illegals were evenly distributed across the United States. Maybe you shouldn't ass/u/me. quote silverboner quote silverboner quote MA In this quote, you compare illegal immigration to spousal abuse, child abuse, dealing drugs and human trafficking. Those two sentences I bolded heavily imply the comparison. What did I compare? According to the quote you provided, according to my own words, how are child abusers, drug dealers, human trafficers and illegal immigrants alike/different? My own words MA. Don't make shit up. Quote me. How are they alike/different according to me? Put up or shut up! You avoided this too. Granted you did come up with a different quote, but you didn't defend your accusation with the quote you already posted. It's the same thing. You do exactly the same thing in both quotes. If you can't see this, there is no hope for you. But I suppose I am obligated to, again, painfully explicate the comparison. quote silverboner Yes, I expect people, rich or poor, to follow laws. Being poor is not an excuse for lawlessness. If it was, then when they steal "because they are hungry" I can't blame them. When they beat their wives, because the stress of being poor, I can't blame them. When they beat their children because of the stress of being poor, I can't blame them. When they start dealing drugs, and human trafficking, because they are poor, and want a better life, I can't blame them. Well bleep that. Hungry or not, they don't get a free pass because they are hungry. Not that you have proven that emotional plea anyway. The lawlessness that you mention is illegal immigration. You say that illegal immigration cannot be justified because a person is poor and hungry. You then go on to list other crimes far more heinous than illegal immigration which also cannot be justified because a person is poor and hungry. Therefore the comparison between illegal immigration and these other crimes is readily apparent. Not all laws are equally important. Not all lawbreakers are equally guilty. You have acknowledged these facts rather indignantly. Therefore, why even bother making the comparison? As I stated above, there's absolutely no reason to make it. quote silverboner Your claim, your burden. I linked to a site that showed Americans are hungry. Are Americans immigrating to Canada because they are starving? You really think I don't understand there are hungry people everywhere, even in one of the most wealthiest countries in the world? Yes, there are probably degrees of severity between Mexico and America, but that doesn't provide enough basis for your emotional plea. The severity in the U.S. and that in Mexico can't even begin to be compared. In the U.S. we have soup kitchens. Do you think they have soup kitchens in Mexico? Lol.
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GuardianGriffen Adapt Improvise Overcome Still Seekin' total posts: 3513 since: Mar 2006	Aug 12, 10 at 9:04pm ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	quote AnonymousGuy quote Socialist programs for people who are citizens can sometimes be a good thing and are options to consider. Socialist programs for people who are not citizens or even legal immigrants are out of the question. If you feel the need to help them then move down there and start a charity or donate to an existing organization. Absolutely right. I remember that part in the bible. "Love your neighbors unless they immigrated to your kingdom illegally, then they can starve to death". 1- Unless you are prepared to live under all the laws of the bible and obey it, do not suggest we follow this book out of convenience. Cherry picking from any source is foul play, let alone a source you don't find valid. 2- A society is held up by the work of its people. Legal immigrants qualify under the basics of a social contract. People are huffing and puffing and trying to say that illegals do. All this time the state of California is under a huge burden by its social services. Nearly 1/4 Illegals reside in this one liberal state. If Arizona is too harsh, California is too lenient. 3- The US isn't the magic ATM machine to the world. This reckless behavior to assume we can just throw money at something got us into our mess in the first place. The system in place in California doesn't work. Even in the magic city of the angels, drinking sand in the desert doesn't quench your thirst. 4- Arizona isn't the poster child for equality or anything special like California. They do have a system that seems to keep illegal immigration down. They get vastly fewer federal dollars as a result of their efforts to solve this problem and the numbers indicate they are more effective at doing so. ------------------- RFS \| TES4 \| DIY \| USA
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silverboner Bored Resident Neo total posts: 2721 since: Dec 2005	Aug 12, 10 at 9:31pm ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	quote Massive Attack Oh, I was under the impression that you were arguing your own perspective, but apparently you're now a spokesman for the federal government. You're right, the federal government doesn't bow to the words of Jesus. They have immigration laws on the books which, believe it or not, are enforced when applicable. But this thread is about the Arizona immigration law, not the federal government. Well, given that you have brought up religion, and federal govenrment, this conversation is clearly not limited to just Arizona, but immigration in general. But nobody is arguing or claiming that I am a spoke person. Lay off the dramatics. Its not helping. quote Massive Attack Yes it does. I call bullshit. There's absolutely no other reason to make the comparison at all. Except if I were talking about personal responsibility, blame, and justification. Subject matters you are still avoiding. quote Massive Attack I'm sure you understand the concept of the punishment fitting the crime and that breaking the law is more understandable depending on the circumstances. Therefore, it's pointless to bring up the fact that human traffickers may also be seeking a better life for themselves when human trafficking is a far more heinous crime than illegal immigration, and the illegal immigrants in question happen to be extremely destitute and desperate. Except you are trying to justify illegal immigration based on circumstances. As though being poor gives them a right or a just reason to break laws. quote Massive Attack Arguing for the legality of a matter is a matter of conventional morality... No its not. The legality of a matter doesn't even have to relate to morals. Its illegal to cross the street (jay walking), yet to then argue that its then conventionally morally wrong to cross the street is crap. What about all those dumb laws you keep posting? quote From your link The Bluebonnet is the official song of the state flower. So then based on what you said, arguing the legality of this law is a matter of also arguing conventional morality is such that its morally wrong if the official song of the state flower is NOT the Bluebonnet? Seriously, dude: laws and morals may or may not be associated. Some laws have a moral base, some laws don't. They are not necessary dependent nor associated, and so you cannot ASS/U/ME that because I am talking about laws that I am also talking about morality. I wasn't, just so we can be clear. To continue this portion of your claims is a waste of time, and unless you post something FAR more thought provoking, I will likely ignore it. quote Massive Attack I already told you that I've dealt with the points that you raised. Prove me otherwise. I did. You didn't address the "drop in the bucket" and the 1.4billion. Who is 1.4billion a drop in the bucket for? You didn't answer that. That is one such "proof". quote Massive Attack I never suggested that we open the border. I didn't say you did neither did I assume it. But every point I make to show that Americans are suffering you have down played as though its no big deal..."a drop in the bucket", diminishing the suffering of Americans while advocating the plight of "Starving illegals". So thus I have to remind you, that even though I agree with the need to help said immigrants, the fact is we can't, because America does not have the resources. Something you have never admitted, and have avoided agreeing with me on. quote silverboner quote Massive Attack quote me The Mexican government should be held accountable for its poor management of its people and finances, but the people themselves aren't to blame. So why do we blame murders, rapists and thieves? So people aren't to blame for breaking laws?Why blame the kid that is truant or sexually harasses fellow students? quote Massive Attack Are you intentionally dense or were you born that way? Murder, rape, and stealing are heinous crimes. Illegal immigration is not a heinous crime. Sure, you could say that an illegal immigrant is a lawbreaker, but the fact that they broke the law is more than understandable when you consider how stupid our immigration laws are and what circumstances they come from. Understandable doesn't equate to justified. And this is another "proof". You have yet to deal with the fact that you pretty much obliterated personal responsibility. Something I have tried to point out, but you haven't addressed it. Instead you make comments like above as though I am dense, and continue talking about the severity of crimes, completely ignoring that personal responsibility plays a part in EVERY CRIME, whether its as lame as drinking three sips of beer while standing up, crossing the border illegally, or rape/murder. quote Massive Attack Of course I didn't. I never said that illegals were evenly distributed across the United States. Maybe you shouldn't ass/u/me. I didn't assume nor claim you said that illegals were evenly distributed. But, bringing up the number of illegals in comparison to the entire population of the US effectively averages out the distribution. As though 5% of the population is a "drop in the bucket". 5% of the population is a nice way to avoid the facts, such as 25% live in CA, and they run a tab of $10.5billion. Yes, you didn't say that illegal immigrants were evenly distributed, but you effectively distributed them across the whole US by comparing and generalizing them within numbers of the entire US population and cost of US medical services, thus diminishing their impact. quote Massive Attack The lawlessness that you mention is illegal immigration. You say that illegal immigration cannot be justified because a person is poor and hungry. You then go on to list other crimes far more heinous than illegal immigration which also cannot be justified because a person is poor and hungry. Therefore the comparison between illegal immigration and these other crimes is readily apparent. I fail to see a comparison. It seems to me, I was simply noting that justification for breaking the law, no-mater how severe the crime is, cannot be justified by being poor. quote Massive Attack Not all lawbreakers are equally guilty. I disagree. All lawbreakers are guilty of breaking the law. quote Massive Attack Therefore, why even bother making the comparison? As I stated above, there's absolutely no reason to make it. There is a reason. Reason being, that we cannot justify ANY Lawbreaking because of poverty/hunger. Why won't you deal with that instead of continuing a bullshit comparison that I have denied, and shown you to be in error multiple times? Deal with what I say, not what you think you can win at. Severity of the crime doesn't magically allow for justification. If it did, then at what magic line do we say that "being poor" isn't an excuse? We cannot ethically or rationally allow for a justification for any action "because I am poor". A thief is a thief whether they are rich or poor. An immigrant crossing our borders illegally is still illegal whether they are rich or poor. Being poor isn't a free pass to US or we are bleepED! quote Massive Attack The severity in the U.S. and that in Mexico can't even begin to be compared. In the U.S. we have soup kitchens. Do you think they have soup kitchens in Mexico? Lol. Yes. Edit: And don't even get me started on the Catholic Church. I bet they have plenty of food pantries in Mexico. Eddited for Grammer =) Edit: Aug 12, 10 ------------------- Evil necessitates God. Do you know what is so important about the number 447,225,917,218,507,401,284,016mg/cc??? Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.
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Bakka Resident Neo since: Nov 2009	Aug 12, 10 at 11:22pm ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	Who reads all this stuff?! Can you guys even keep up with your own argument accurately. Deserves medals. . .
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Cinamon mad messenger total posts: 333 since: Mar 2008	Aug 13, 10 at 2:27pm ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	quote GuardianGriffen No. You can't force 'equal' hiring practices. It actually becomes a numbers game and is racial profiling. No one seems to care that it isn't equal rights because white people are the victoms. Getting pulled over and having your citizenship verified is so trematic.. I already said I would have no objection to EVERYONE being pulled over in the state and considered that a logical proposition because people are so damn afraid of not being PC. The government is doing a shitty job with healthcare in general. But no, I don't want people who crash the party to piss in my Cool Aid too. That crosses the line. Slippery slope fallacies galore. Oh no, not the "nobody cares about white people" crap. If you haven't noticed, white people have much more advantage over minorities in America. Caucasian homicides get investigated much more thoroughly than minority cases. Most of the richest people in America are white. The media is predominantly white. The list goes on. Take your sob story somewhere else. Human biases will assure that people will not be treated fairly. For example, people of middle eastern descent get "randomly" checked at airports much more often than white people.
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GuardianGriffen Adapt Improvise Overcome Still Seekin' total posts: 3513 since: Mar 2006	Aug 13, 10 at 6:26pm ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	I'll address the stuff that wasn't rubbish. quote Cinamon Human biases will assure that people will not be treated fairly. For example, people of middle eastern descent get "randomly" checked at airports much more often than white people. Do you wounder why or look in the past for similar circumstances? Unlike Germany, this has more to do with nationality and less to do with race in general. Many other countries around the world are a specific or a few specific races. When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor there was much worse discrimination against asian americans. They were rounded up in camps and indeed treated as second class citizens. With the recent issues, there have been some detentions and many more inconvinient holdups for some people. Issues of a national nature cause actions normaly deamed racist to be excused due to fear. If the fear is a genuine threat, this isn't always a horrible thing. Fear is a survival instinct for a reason. Back to your original example. What is worse, stopping people based on racial profiling or a massive detonation that kills loads of people? quote Cinamon Slippery slope fallacies galore. I like how Yoda said it better, but sure. "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." War has this effect on societies. Get used to it or find a way to solve the issues that we are at war for. That is the reason I elected Obama. ------------------- RFS \| TES4 \| DIY \| USA
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weskraudaon Neolithic total posts: 6226 GameGrep pts: 169 since: Nov 2006	Aug 14, 10 at 12:44am ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	And Obama is still in the war...And he still supports illegal immigration since he is an illegal himself.
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Fatherbrain30 Insanity Hooked on Neo since: Jul 2004	Aug 14, 10 at 1:02am ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	quote weskraudaon And Obama is still in the war...And he still supports illegal immigration since he is an illegal himself. Since most of Weskraudon's post seems to have something personal with Obama, I believe he was raped as a child by Obama or someone that resembles him. I mean it's the only explanation for trying to use a myth that the tea party is riding on in order to oust the president and quell their subconscious fear of a not-white president. Inforwars is nothing but libertarians raging, and their support for Ron Paul was pretty evident in my one and only visit to the site. -------------------
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Bakka Resident Neo since: Nov 2009	Aug 14, 10 at 1:09am ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	. . . and then forced to drink tap water.
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GuardianGriffen Adapt Improvise Overcome Still Seekin' total posts: 3513 since: Mar 2006	Aug 14, 10 at 1:27am ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	Obama, as commander and chief and under the council of the military experts, has decided that we need to keep on fighting. You can't be elected president if you are an immigrant. The govenator of California, having been born outside the US, can't qualify to be the president. Obama was a resident of Hawaii before he migrated to the mainland. quote Bakka . . . and then forced to drink tap water. The walls have eyes, ears, noses.. I try not to doodle but I can't help it. ------------------- RFS \| TES4 \| DIY \| USA
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CupsOfSauce The body drips sorrow... s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1700 since: Oct 2009	Aug 14, 10 at 6:04am ^ re: Arizona Immigration
	quote Tumbles Well, that makes you an insensitive fool. It's funny to call someone an insensitive fool. Because calling someone a fool is so nice. Also, I love how liberals pretend to have morals when it goes with "their side." Especially when the blood of over 47 million abortions is on their hands, they really don't have nerve to talk. ------------------- *Nothing is true, Everything is permitted*
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Arizona Immigration - Page 19

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