Arizona Immigration - Page 12

Realize that most of the violence comes from drug cartels. A problem that can easily be remedied by legalizing drugs. People who are coming here illegally to escape the violence and poverty mostly come here to work. I agree that kicking out all the Mexicans would be bad for our economy. Any time population decreases, so does production. It's not like illegals are even taking your jobs. Unless you dream of mopping floors, or picking strawberries. You never see an illegal Mexican come in and take a computer engineering job.

The video about highway 8 in Arizona, should be a wake up call. We desperately need to do something about the cartels. They have basically taken over in many places in Mexico. Unfortunately the only way to fight them to any effect is to compete financially, which they would lose badly to the corporations in America.

quote silverboner

quote Massive Attack
Sure thing, pal. For one, federal immigration laws do NOT require police officers to demand proof of citizenship from everyone that they stop who "might" be illegal (read: has brown skin). SB1070 does.

Hiibel V Sixth Judicial Court (2004) 542 US 177, ruled that its not unconstitutional for the government to require suspects to identify themselves during police investigations. This would make the Arizona law perfectly legal. Federal law doesn't require it, but its not illegal to require people to Identify themselves if there is probable cause.

Also this law has nothing to do with immigration. It states that you must identify yourself if convicted of a crime. It does not say that if you are suspected, you have to also prove your citizenship, or even show an ID card.

quote AnonymousGuy

I don't understand how mexicans attending us schools somehow keeps americans from being able to attend those schools?

Unless you are going to assume that the US then also has the power to TAX them for using our services, the REASON such a situation would keep Americans from being able to attend those schools is because WE CANNOT AFFORD IT. CA is rated number 48 in education. It was one of the best education in the US at one time. Why are we at 48 now? A HUGE reason is because of illegal immigration and anchor babies. You can blame it on a number of things, but illegal immigration is a major factor in that.

quote AnonymousGuy

You didn't really elaborate well on how it's a bad thing that mexicans are able to take advantage of the things we have. Also, forbid it that we should become a global community with no borders, and mutual caring and nurturing between all of gods children. Again, you've failed to elaborate on how that's actually bad.

Its not a bad thing, just unrealistic. How much caring and mutual nurturing are the drug cartels expressing as they kill hundreds along the boarder? Maybe if Mexico got there act together, Mexicans wouldn't need to flee their own country. Why don't they fix their problems, (and they are numerous), before we absorb them?

quote AnonymousGuy

So be careful about insinuating mexicans come here to take advantage of our system and live off of handouts, because I can, and will, tear your argument to pieces. It's completely unsubstantiated bullshit.

Where did I insinuate this? No need to defend what isn't being attacked.

How do you propose to PAY for ANYONE to be CAPABLE of USING US SERVICES? Its a LOGISTICAL PROBLEM, not one rooted in insinuation or racism, or hate, or anti-mexicans or anti-nonAmericans.

Maybe if hospitals weren't being closed because of illegals, and prisons weren't being over crowded, where a bulk are illegals and or Non-Citizens, and illegals weren't getting cheaper college rates then my own American children, and my children's education wasn't tanking because of the burden of illegals, I would be more open armed about it. But the fact is that Americans are losing services, are burdened with their presence, and its HURTING AMERICANS.

When Americans stop being hurt by illegal immigration in both education, health care, identity theft, welfare, and over crowding of prisons, then I would be open to taking on the world's problems. But until then, they are breaking our laws, and hurting Americans. And if the American Federal Government isn't going to put Americans first, then we need a new government. Revolution style if necessary.

.......

quote XDragon69

Also this law has nothing to do with immigration. It states that you must identify yourself if convicted of a crime. It does not say that if you are suspected, you have to also prove your citizenship, or even show an ID card.

That is definitely NOT what it states. It makes it perfectly legal for a state to require individuals to IDENTIFY themselves during a POLICE INVESTIGATION, not if they are convicted. How can you convict someone if you cannot identify them? Clearly before charges are even filed they have to be identified.

quote Fruscainte

Realize that most of the violence comes from drug cartels.

What about gang violence on American Soil?

Another Article to ponder.

GG, you're full of utter shit. Only a minute percentage of illegal Mexicans engage in drug-dealing and murder. Most of them simply wanted out of the shithole known as Mexico. They do jobs that people with an unearned sense of entitlement, such as yourself, refuse to do, earn under minimum wage, and receive no government welfare whatsoever. You also obviously don't understand immigration law or the immigration process, so don't sit in judgment of things you have no knowledge of.

If you want to talk about the heartless and robbers who came here to take what they want, regardless of the law, why don't you look back 300 years ago to the people, some of them likely your ancestors, who laced food and blankets with smallpox and "gifted" them to Native Americans, who were here first and had their own established governments, simply so they could take over the land? You're quite obviously a bigot and a racist, and as such your opinion on this matter is null and void.

And silverboner, your court case example is massively irrelevant to this law. The crux of your argument rests on the legality of what the ICE agents did, even though it was completely illegal and unconstitutional to boot. Presenting a HAZ-MAT certified DL and a SSN is more than enough proof of citizenship, which means that the ICE agents detailed him ILLEGALLY. My argument isn't "it could happen." My argument is "it has happened and it IS happening." I'm aware that you need a valid DL to drive, which still doesn't justify pulling someone over for no reason other than to check their citizenship status. There is also the case of approaching people who aren't driving, such as day laborers. I think I have very accurately portrayed how this law would be enforced because, quite frankly, many of the people in Arizona and the law enforcement officers in question are bigots, and even if they aren't, SB1070 pressures them to racially profile people at the cost of their job.

quote Massive Attack

And silverboner, your court case example is massively irrelevant to this law. The crux of your argument rests on the legality of what the ICE agents did, even though it was completely illegal and unconstitutional to boot.

Says who? According to the article posted, it was a STANDARD PRACTICE. Meaning it was CONSTITUTIONAL AND LEGAL. As I already demonstrated its relevant.

quote Massive Attack

Presenting a HAZ-MAT certified DL and a SSN is more than enough proof of citizenship, which means that the ICE agents detailed him ILLEGALLY. My argument isn't "it could happen." My argument is "it has happened and it IS happening."

But not with respect to the Arizona Law. And as I pointed out, the Arizona law would have stopped such arrests with the DL. So even if you have issues with the Federal Government and how they handle illegal immigration, to put all of that on the Arizona Law, would be inaccurate, as Arizona officer wouldn't have arrested the truck driver because he showed them what I can only presume is a valid DL. But that isn't even all of it. No Legal stop was made, as the gentleman wasn't breaking any laws, so an Arizona Officer wouldn't' have even stopped him to check for ID in the first place.

quote Massive Attack

I think I have very accurately portrayed how this law would be enforced because, quite frankly, many of the people in Arizona and the law enforcement officers in question are bigots, and even if they aren't, SB1070 pressures them to racially profile people at the cost of their job.

When the law specifically says "you can't card someone based on looks", and you claim the "spirit of the law" is exactly contrary to what it says, then NO, you DON"T have an accurate view of the law. The "Spirit of the law" is a legal term, and you have summed up the spirit of the law exactly contrary to the letter of the law.

Further, prove that many people in Arizona and the law enforcement officers in question are bigots.
You have anything other then your own biased opinion to back that up?


Would you kindly quote the portion of the law you are referring to when you claim:

quote MA

and even if they aren't, SB1070 pressures them to racially profile people at the cost of their job.

If you think you have it right, then quote it.

I agree with you Recipe.

quote Massive Attack

If you want to talk about the heartless and robbers who came here to take what they want, regardless of the law, why don't you look back 300 years ago to the people, some of them likely your ancestors, who laced food and blankets with smallpox and "gifted" them to Native Americans, who were here first and had their own established governments, simply so they could take over the land? You're quite obviously a bigot and a racist, and as such your opinion on this matter is null and void.

You didn't just go back to early colonial life as justification for illigal immigration. How desperate are you to prove your claims? So, rather then accept the truth, you resort to blaming the evil white people for this problem. So first you claim the cops are being racist. Then you claim people who support their actions are racist. Your words may have been intended to prove others racist, but it seems you accomplished showing your own motivation.

I served in the military. Race means nothing to me. We all bleed red and we are all Americans. My priority is the team I play for and not some other nation.

quote Massive Attack

GG, you're full of utter shit. Only a minute percentage of illegal Mexicans engage in drug-dealing and murder.

1- In the USA we prosecute such offenders. Tightened borders that restrict crossing of drugs, people, criminals, and terrorists are a good thing. Thanks for your support. XD
2- Only a minute percentage of law enforcement officials have done stupid shit that has been considered racialy motivated. Yet you use that to justify your claims that law enforcement officials are racist. So which is it? Are the law enforcement issues isolated events or are all illegal immigrants drug dealers, murderers, terrorists, and thiefs. Unlike you, I don't think that way which brings me to...
3- Even the lesser criminals are breaking the law by being here illegally. They know that. You know that. Nothing you said changes that FACT.

Legalize Drugs, end of story

quote Fatherbrain30

Legalize Drugs, end of story

That's a whole other debate, so let's just assume for the time being that the nasty drug cartels with their weapons and wars and targeting our citizens with such substances are BAD.

Oh those silly drug cartels, they're not doing anything wrong. It's just our attitude to drugs that's the problem, not their horrifyingly brutal methods to reap all the resources they can from our society and their own!

Have you guys established how many mexican illegal immigrants are associated with drugs?