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771l9 771l9 high on "N" since: Dec 2006	Jul 09, 09 at 2:24am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	Log in to remove this sponsored message Well no where in my argument do I use religion or the bible, obviously those are pro-life its useless mentioning them. The key here whether or not that fetus' right to live is more important than the mother's 9 months discomfort from pregnancy. For some women abortion didn't seem wrong at right, but after maturing they started to re-think it and it haunts them for the rest of their life. Abortion has serious mental health effects just like pregnancy. However that fetus, unlike cells, animals, sperm, is growing into what eventually will be an adult human being. Killing it directly prevents that human being from existing. I could kill an adult in their sleep, painlessly, and they would never live the rest of their life, but they wouldn't "know" they were killed. Does that make it ok? Murder under any circumstances is wrong. -------------------
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Faust Champion of Opal NeoXtreme total posts: 8628 since: Apr 2008	Jul 09, 09 at 2:29am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	quote 771l9 Well no where in my argument do I use religion or the bible, obviously those are pro-life its useless mentioning them. Well you basically said shit that happened 2k years ago doesn't matter, so that means biblical morals or doctrine must be discounted too, because it's 2000 years old. quote 771l9 For some women abortion didn't seem wrong at right, but after maturing they started to re-think it and it haunts them for the rest of their life. For some women, they never felt an ounce of guilt even years later. wow, look at how much that helps the argument. quote 771l9 I could kill an adult in their sleep, painlessly, and they would never life the rest of their life, but they wouldn't "know" they were killed. Does that make it ok? Murder under any circumstances is wrong. Not comparable, an adult is sentient and aware. They know they're alive, they can respond and decry their own deaths, they can actually feel pain. Your argument is basically coming to little more than nonsense.
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Sah Kuh Suckers From under the waterfall-- into the Sky s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1868 since: Sep 2007	Jul 09, 09 at 2:45am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	quote Byzantine quote 771l9 Well no where in my argument do I use religion or the bible, obviously those are pro-life its useless mentioning them. Well you basically said shit that happened 2k years ago doesn't matter, so that means biblical morals or doctrine must be discounted too, because it's 2000 years old. quote 771l9 For some women abortion didn't seem wrong at right, but after maturing they started to re-think it and it haunts them for the rest of their life. For some women, they never felt an ounce of guilt even years later. wow, look at how much that helps the argument. quote 771l9 I could kill an adult in their sleep, painlessly, and they would never life the rest of their life, but they wouldn't "know" they were killed. Does that make it ok? Murder under any circumstances is wrong. Not comparable, an adult is sentient and aware. They know they're alive, they can respond and decry their own deaths, they can actually feel pain. Your argument is basically coming to little more than nonsense. A lot of your argument simply highlights some points that your fellow debater has made and calling it nonsense. It's called the shepherd's debate. (make a counter argument that doesn't necessarily need to make sense, and then call the prior argument nonsense.) You say that being killed in your sleep is different from dying before birth, but experiencing life is not a requirement to have life. I feel that potential of life is just as, or almost as valuable as life spent. Is a battery that much different from a lamp? I'd be wasting energy just as much if I had the lamp on for years or if I tossed the battery away in the first place, except that one way has me enjoy reading in the dark. Life lived and life lost are one the same, yet it's not up to doctors and even mothers to dictate where it is budgeted. -------------------
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Faust Champion of Opal NeoXtreme total posts: 8628 since: Apr 2008	Jul 09, 09 at 3:23am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	quote Sah_Kuh_Suckers A lot of your argument simply highlights some points that your fellow debater has made and calling it nonsense. It's called the shepherd's debate. (make a counter argument that doesn't necessarily need to make sense, and then call the prior argument nonsense.) I was being sarcastic in my post, that's why it had the rolling eyes smiley. I was actually quite aware of the fallacy i committed (though i've never heard it called a shepherd's debate), that's why it had a sarcastic tone. I was using humor to illustrate how invalid his points were. quote Sah_Kuh_Suckers You say that being killed in your sleep is different from dying before birth, but experiencing life is not a requirement to have life. I feel that potential of life is just as, or almost as valuable as life spent. Well it could easily be argued that the only way one can be alive is by experiencing life (which should be a little obvious). the second part of your argument is all about what you "feel", which is hardly a solid or tenable ground to argue morality on because what one feels is purely anecdotal. I feel that you're wrong, see how that works? quote Sah_Kuh_Suckers Is a battery that much different from a lamp? I'd be wasting energy just as much if I had the lamp on for years or if I tossed the battery away in the first place, except that one way has me enjoy reading in the dark. Your metaphor is flawed because you're comparing inanimate, non-sentient, almost identical objects in a similar state of existence to a thing that is obviously alive and another thing that is vaguely described as both alive and not alive by different people. quote Sah_Kuh_Suckers Life lived and life lost are one the same, yet it's not up to doctors and even mothers to dictate where it is budgeted. sentient life and non-life are not one and the same, however. Technically speaking, the skin cells i scrapped of my hand last night making a fire are just as alive as a fetus in early gestation.
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771l9 771l9 high on "N" since: Dec 2006	Jul 09, 09 at 3:24am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	That's a really good point, most people would agree that murdering a 5 year old is worse than murdering an 80 year old on their deathbed, because the 80 year old has already lived, while the 5 year old has 75 years of life it would lose. If you stand back and look at the difference between an child aborted or a child allowed life, after 1000 years hes dead anyway. The difference is the child allowed to live lived a lifetime, while the aborted child lost 80 years of life. Saying that 80 years of life is meaningless because he never "lived" any of it doesn't really make sense, otherwise you'd be saying that life lived is more valuable than potential life to be lived, and killing babies and children means very little because they haven't had much life. I'd agree with Sahkuhsuckers that taking away that potential life is what makes murder murder, which is why killing a fetus, even though it hasn't "lived" yet, is still murder, as you are taking away its potential to life. The question is, is the 9 months of agony so bad it takes precedence over that 80 year lifetime lost? I'd say no. Technically speaking, the skin cells i scrapped of my hand last night making a fire are just as alive as a fetus in early gestation. And skin cells don't have the potential to become a human being. Neither to sperm cells, or eggs. A fetus will develop into a human that has a life. An organ is a part of a system, or the human body. The fetus serves not part in the mother's body, it is a separate lifeforms, a human life form with its own organs and developing brain that is living. And unlike cells, will become a full grown human being if not killed. -------------------
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Faust Champion of Opal NeoXtreme total posts: 8628 since: Apr 2008	Jul 09, 09 at 3:27am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	It's not alive. Before 6 months, i don't consider the child to be alive. You can't kill that which isn't alive. You're making the same tired argument over and over again, and it's getting you nowhere. Our definition of when life begins is different and is not going to change on either side, why don't you try addressing the topic from a different angle?
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robotbear high on "N" total posts: 701 since: Apr 2009	Jul 09, 09 at 3:27am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	quote 771l9 For some women abortion didn't seem wrong at right, but after maturing they started to re-think it and it haunts them for the rest of their life. Abortion has serious mental health effects just like pregnancy. I think the emboldened words are the most important. SOME women regret abortions, yes. But a great many do not and are actually overjoyed and happy that they got them. And JUST LIKE means that even if the woman kept the kid she could still end up with serious mental health effects. By using the adverbs and modifiers you did you basically made your own argument null and void. quote Sah_Kuh_Suckers but experiencing life is not a requirement to have life. Isn't experiencing life being alive? I thought it was.. quote 771l9 but they wouldn't "know" they were killed. They would not know they were killed no. But unlike a fetus they know that they are alive. They have cogitative functions and can determine that "I am alive". A fetus can not. A fetus is basically a parasite, a wart, a mole it does not have it's own life, but is just a piece of tissue attached to the mother, thus it is the mother's decision of what should happen to it. -------------------
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771l9 771l9 high on "N" since: Dec 2006	Jul 09, 09 at 3:31am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	quote Byzantine It's not alive. Before 6 months, i don't consider the child to be alive. You can't kill that which isn't alive. You're making the same tired argument over and over again, and it's getting you nowhere. Our definition of when life begins is different and is not going to change on either side, why don't you try addressing the topic from a different angle. Saying the fetus is no more alive than your skin cells, is like saying yourself is nothing more than a collection of cells and organs, your thoughts nothing more than sparks in your brain and when your feel pain, its nothing more than electrical currents through out your body. Your looking at it from a purely scientific perspective with no morals or feeling of importance for human life. -------------------
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Faust Champion of Opal NeoXtreme total posts: 8628 since: Apr 2008	Jul 09, 09 at 3:34am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	quote 771l9 Saying the fetus is no more alive than your skin cells, is like saying yourself is nothing more than a collection of cells and organs, your thoughts nothing more than sparks in your brain and when your feel pain, its nothing more than electrical currents through out your body. Your looking at it from a purely scientific perspective with no morals or feeling of importance for human life. Actually, i believe i'm looking at it from a very moral perspective. You see, the empirical data of a child in gestation supports that a fetus does not truly become alive or aware until 32 weeks (6 months). I'm not willing to revoke the liberty and dignity of women for the sake of growing what amounts to simply, a clump of cells. You see, i'm more than a clump of cells because i'm self aware. A fetus is not. The two are not comparable in the slightest sense.
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Sah Kuh Suckers From under the waterfall-- into the Sky s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1868 since: Sep 2007	Jul 09, 09 at 3:34am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	quote Byzantine It's not alive. Before 6 months, i don't consider the child to be alive. You can't kill that which isn't alive. You're making the same tired argument over and over again, and it's getting you nowhere. Our definition of when life begins is different and is not going to change on either side, why don't you try addressing the topic from a different angle. Death is stopping life from continuing, not by the amount of pain caused, or whether you can sense it. Killing someone, but resurrecting them immediately is at worst, assault, intent to murder or endangerment of life. But it's worse if I end someone's life, without killing or harming them immediately because that life will never go on. You're stopping life from continuing by not allowing the baby to mature. quote robotbear Isn't experiencing life being alive? I thought it was.. Just because I've never experienced life, doesn't mean I can have life inside me, no? -------------------
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Faust Champion of Opal NeoXtreme total posts: 8628 since: Apr 2008	Jul 09, 09 at 3:37am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	quote Sah_Kuh_Suckers Death is stopping life from continuing, not by the amount of pain caused, or whether you can sense it. Something has to be alive before it can die. Before 32 weeks, i and many others do not consider it alive. Before that point, it's no different than getting a wart removed. Try a different argument, because we obviously don't agree on when life begins and we're not going to. quote Sah_Kuh_Suckers Just because I've never experienced life, doesn't mean I can have life inside me, no? No, you have to be alive to experience life. you can't be non-living and still alive.
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Sah Kuh Suckers From under the waterfall-- into the Sky s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1868 since: Sep 2007	Jul 09, 09 at 3:41am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	quote Byzantine quote Sah_Kuh_Suckers Death is stopping life from continuing, not by the amount of pain caused, or whether you can sense it. Something as to be alive before it can die. Before 32 weeks, i and many others do not consider it alive. Before that point, it's no different than getting a wart removed. Try a different argument, because we obviously don't agree on when life begins and we're not going to. This is exactly my point. Nobody agrees exactly when life begins, so why take the chance? -------------------
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Northern49 THIS IS NOT HOW I IMAGINED IT. Hooked on Neo total posts: 4443 since: May 2005	Jul 09, 09 at 3:41am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	I really don't see what the hubub is about killing babies. No, honestly. If the maternal counterpart gives it value, it has value, but if she doesn't, it is, as it's been said, a wart and a parasite. It's no more evil than killing a mosquito. Stop thinking Humanity is special in some way. It's VERY ignorant to think we are in any way different or more important than any other species on the planet. I'm not saying humanity is scum, and I'm not saying all living things are equally important to ecology, but 1 bumblebee does more for the planet than 100 humans have or ever will do.
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Sah Kuh Suckers From under the waterfall-- into the Sky s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1868 since: Sep 2007	Jul 09, 09 at 3:44am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	quote Northern49 I really don't see what the hubub is about killing babies. No, honestly. If the maternal counterpart gives it value, it has value, but if she doesn't, it is, as it's been said, a wart and a parasite. It's no more evil than killing a mosquito. Stop thinking Humanity is special in some way. It's VERY ignorant to think we are in any way different or more important than any other species on the planet. I'm not saying humanity is scum, and I'm not saying all living things are equally important to ecology, but 1 bumblebee does more for the planet than 100 humans have or ever will do. And why are you so caring for the planet then? It's no more special than mars. Or is it just because we live on it? If you remove all favortism, suddenly EVERYTHING begins to break down. I say favortism should stop past humans. -------------------
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771l9 771l9 high on "N" since: Dec 2006	Jul 09, 09 at 3:45am ^ re: Abortion: Should it be allowed? 9
	quote Byzantine No, you have to be alive to experience life. you can't be non-living and still alive. But you believe that a fetus is not alive because is hasn't experienced life, but to experience life, you have to be alive. In that sense no one is alive, but nothing more that cells and electrical sparks that create illusions of thought. When you murder someone, its bad not because its painful but because you took away the life it was going to live. By killing the fetus you take away the life it was going to live, whether or not it was considered alive when you killed it. So how is abortion not murder? quote Northern49 I really don't see what the hubub is about killing babies. No, honestly. If the maternal counterpart gives it value, it has value, but if she doesn't, it is, as it's been said, a wart and a parasite. It's no more evil than killing a mosquito. Stop thinking Humanity is special in some way. It's VERY ignorant to think we are in any way different or more important than any other species on the planet. I'm not saying humanity is scum, and I'm not saying all living things are equally important to ecology, but 1 bumblebee does more for the planet than 100 humans have or ever will do. So anyone with no friends/loner can be killed without thought? -------------------
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