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Live Light true seeker (2K Remix) total posts: 2111 since: Oct 2007	Apr 22, 12 at 10:13pm ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	Log in to remove this sponsored message quote DG What about Sodom? Do you think it was a purely natural disaster as opposed to fire from heaven? I have no idea. quote And do you utterly reject the verses which specifically say that God created evil? Yes, I utterly reject the idea that God created evil. We've been over this before.
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Oglop I EAT SPLEENS s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1781 since: Apr 2010	Apr 28, 12 at 11:07am ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	Wait, if God didn't create evil then what did? -------------------
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Lavaman77 newseeker total posts: 15 since: Jun 2010	Apr 28, 12 at 5:18pm ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	I'm not going to get into one of these discussions again. But anything that enjoys the suffering and misery of others should be removed by force from this universe. Whatever you might label it.
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silverboner Bored Resident Neo total posts: 2721 since: Dec 2005	Apr 30, 12 at 10:51am ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	quote Oglop Wait, if God didn't create evil then what did? its a good question, but the flaw in it might be that evil might (and I stress the might) need not be created. Perhaps it exists intrinsically with beings capable of choice. Inseparable like communication and logic. Take for instance darkness. It doesn't need not be created. Darkness exists in the absence of light. Darkness always exists and is present, until light is created. Just as a void exists until something is created or moved into the void. I don't believe God created darkness, just as I also do not believe God created logic. For God Himself has to utilize logic to comprehend and act and react. In order for God to create anything with purpose or intent, logic would have to exist. To believe God created logic leads to a paradox, as logic would have to exist to create logic, and so, because of that, I don't think its something God created. Rather its just something that is intrinsic to communication. Perhaps evil is intrinsic to choice. ------------------- Evil necessitates God. Do you know what is so important about the number 447,225,917,218,507,401,284,016mg/cc??? Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.
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ChiroVette Come back to us, Susan. We miss you! (supermod) total posts: 43074 since: Mar 2002	Apr 30, 12 at 12:50pm ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	The problem is that if that scenario is true, then God created evil by allowing the choice in the first place. If God gives his creations free will, and intrinsic to this ability (and requirement!) to choose one way or the other, then God created both paths or they could not exist in the first place. Meaning, if you choose one way, it is "within you" to have the capability to make that choice. Likewise if you chose another way, that, too is also "within you" to take that path. If God created you, he created ALL that is within you, including, but not limited to, all choices you make and paths you choose. Quite simply, you cannot take a road that DOES NOT exist in the first place, and the ability to take that path means that the path is "there" for you to take. If it is "there" and you believe in Biblical creation, then it had to be "put there" by God or it could not exist. Ipso-facto, God created evil. -------------------
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D-G BANG CruisiN' total posts: 22187 since: Mar 2003	Apr 30, 12 at 12:53pm ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	quote ChiroVette Ipso-facto, God created evil. There really is no arguing with this especially as the Bible actually says he did. -------------------
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ChiroVette Come back to us, Susan. We miss you! (supermod) total posts: 43074 since: Mar 2002	Apr 30, 12 at 12:59pm ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	quote DG There really is no arguing with this especially as the Bible actually says he did. Of course. In addition, even if someone rejects this premise, there is corollary in other passages. For instance, the Bible clearly said that "...Hell was created for the devil and all of his angels." Therefore God created Hell. While this is not absolute "proof" in and of itself that God created evil (according to Christian myths), he definitely created a home for evil! -------------------
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D-G BANG CruisiN' total posts: 22187 since: Mar 2003	Apr 30, 12 at 1:59pm ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	ChiroVette What passage is that? New Testament? -------------------
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ChiroVette Come back to us, Susan. We miss you! (supermod) total posts: 43074 since: Mar 2002	Apr 30, 12 at 2:05pm ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	Not 100% sure, DG, but I will do a little digging and see what I can find out. I may have also mis-worded it based on a loose memory of when I used to be a Christian and read the bible on a regular basis. -------------------
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Wo Daddy Wo Neo or Bust total posts: 7652 since: Feb 2003	Apr 30, 12 at 2:20pm ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	Something very similar to that wording in Matthew. ------------------- Membership has its privileges. Do you have what it takes?
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D-G BANG CruisiN' total posts: 22187 since: Mar 2003	Apr 30, 12 at 2:57pm ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	The reason I ask is because as far as I know, there was no "devil" in the old testament, and thus no Hell as such. -------------------
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ChiroVette Come back to us, Susan. We miss you! (supermod) total posts: 43074 since: Mar 2002	Apr 30, 12 at 3:32pm ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	That's a very good point, DG. However, there is Lucifer and there is a "devil" in the sense of a tempter of man (or an adversary of God, if you will), first seen in Job, when he challenges Jehovah to allow him to have his way with Job in order to turn him against God. However, that is a very good point that many Christians often miss, that the idea of Hell and even Satan as a potent and virulent adversary of God, is not entirely supported by Scriptures in the Old Testament. Most Christians will point to Genesis and the serpent. They will also point to the falling of Lucifer (The Morning Star), and also the tempter in Job, and several other passages in the Torah and the rest of the Old Testament, but in reality, Satan is a Christian invention not a Hebrew one. It's quite interesting how there is a certain degree of linguistic gymnastics necessary to mold all of those Old Testament references into the "Satan" that is far more well delineated in the Gospels and the rest of Christian scripture. -------------------
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Styot Gott mit uns Neo or Bust total posts: 7243 since: Feb 2007	Apr 30, 12 at 3:52pm ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	There was no Hell or Heaven in the Old testament, guess they hadn't quite figured out religion's do better with a reward/punishment system for faith. Jesus put that right though. It's also pretty clear it's God and his angles that are casting everybody into the lake of fire. quote Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. There's also this interesting passage in revelation about Jesus sending his angles to gather people up to be crushed in a wine press. quote Revelation 14:14-20 14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[b] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, ‘Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.’ 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. 17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, ‘Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.’ 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia. Wonderful. -------------------
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ChiroVette Come back to us, Susan. We miss you! (supermod) total posts: 43074 since: Mar 2002	Apr 30, 12 at 3:58pm ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	I forgot to make this point: The word "Satan," in Job, is arguably mistranslated. the being that was acting as "adversary" in that particular Biblical book (which I would argue is didactic poetry and NOT meant as gospel truth, lol no pun intended, obviously) is actually called hasatan. In Hebrew, "ha" is a definite article, equivalent to "the" in English. Thus it is reasonable to assume that the book (Poem!) of Job is referring to a being called "the satan," and I intentionally DID NOT capitalize the "t" in the or the "s" in "satan," because it is very arguable that "the satan" is a title and not a proper name. In this instance, it is similar to "the accuser," in the same way that if you were to accuse me of a crime and I were defending myself in court I could, in an admittedly clumsy way, refer to you as "the accuser" just as you could refer to me (more traditionally) as "the defendant," and neither would obviously require capitalization. In EVERY instance of the Old Testament (and I believe there are a dozen or so) the being is referred to as "hasatan" and not Satan, and it is pretty clear from the associated passages that this is a designation NOT a name. It would be the same if my receptionist, when introducing me to a new patient of mine said, "Mr. So and So, this is the doctor," as opposed to saying, "this is Doctor MyName..." thus one is a description and the other a proper name. -------------------
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D-G BANG CruisiN' total posts: 22187 since: Mar 2003	Apr 30, 12 at 4:19pm ^ re: Is evil a matter of opinion?
	quote ChiroVette However, there is Lucifer and there is a "devil" in the sense of a tempter of man (or an adversary of God, if you will), first seen in Job, when he challenges Jehovah to allow him to have his way with Job in order to turn him against God. There's certainly a tempter of man, but the way I read it is that ha-Satan is the adversary of MAN, not of God. Adversary as in prosecuting counsel in God's court. i.e. He tested Job FOR GOD. As far as I'm aware this is what the Jews believe. As for Lucifer, isn't he only found (as an angel) in the Book of Enoch? And with a slightly different name, at that? I know there's a reference to "Lucifer falling like lightning from heaven" elsewhere but that's thought to be a reference to King Nebuchadnezzar's fall from power. EDIT: Oops. I just noticed you posted again further down and addressed this already. -------------------
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