Religion and Does God Exist 47

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quote Barmy Brat

quote silverboner

But you still can't seem to understand, the difference between "I's prefer this" and "I only care about his" is your assumption. Because AB said nothing about whether or not God cares about anything else, other then free will, and to assume something else is important is your assumption, and not part of AB's claim.

Dear me, you really don't get it. The assumption is yours, not mine. AB stated God's preference, and God's preference alone; Any notion that God therefore only cares about this one distinction comes from inside your head and not what was actually written down.

quote

Because some science makes sense, I should just accept it all without question?

Of course not; But you're discarding evolution for no discernible reason other than the fact it suits you. Who are you to say "evolution doesn't make sense" when the real scientists who actually work in this field would disagree? If you're so willing to dismiss their opinions based on your own limited knowledge of the subject, then that is no better than me saying "Biology doesn't make sense" in the abortion thread and subsequently rubbishing any claim you make that uses biology as a basis. I'm just as qualified to discount biology as you are to discount evolution, yet somehow I doubt you'd be happy if someone used this piss-poor defense against you.

Your hypocritical, "whatever suits me" style of debating doesn't fly in a forum meant specifically for intellectual exchanges.

also foxtrot i think you screwed up your quotes, lol

Remember to keep the discussion civil.

Warning: People trying to prove a point with opinion only may be disappointed with the responses of other members.

Lecter, what makes you so sure of your claim? how is it that you, of all people, know for certain of God's existence? Or, is it just a gut feeling like everyone else?

quote Faithhandler

Lecter, what makes you so sure of your claim? how is it that you, of all people, know for certain of God's existence? Or, is it just a gut feeling like everyone else?

I know it is hard to accept, particularly if you are very analytical like we are, but that about sums it up. We can talk proof, empirical data, incontrovertible principles, absolutes, and just about every other term denoting the immutable until we are blue in the face, but in the end, a strong belief in God is something that just comes from within. It cannot be proved, put under a microscope, nor mixed with a chemical in a test tube.

Since I started posting in this thread I began pondering this issue more, and a few things were nagging me about it. First off, I call God "Goddess," but that is irrelevant for this conversation, not to mention I actually believe that the "Almighty" has no sex. What my thinking on this has yielded is a principle I came to several years back that I may or may not have ever posted in one of the earlier iterations of this thread; that is the fact that religious people invariably talk about faith. "You must have faith," you are told. And this I absolutely agree with. Only faith can allow an individual to believe in ANY concept of a supreme being because no proof exists one way or the other. Actually, let me rephrase that: No proof that WE have ever discovered can be cited to back up your faith or religious belief.

I think the big problem with "religion" is that you have a lot of very intelligent, though misguided, people trying to posture as if there is proof of the existence of God. But here is the thing: That is an ABSOLUTELY hypocritical line of bullshit to spew. First off, let us pretend, for a moment, that there was proof. This would beg the very sober question, "Why do we need faith?"

Think about it. If there is PROOF of God's existence then YOU DO NOT NEED FAITH! It would be proved. If there is no proof, then you could ONLY ever have faith. So, which is it, all of you failed Christian apologists, trying to speak as if there is proof? Really, which is it? Is it faith? Or is it your contention that there is proof. Because once PROOF is discovered, then you can toss your faith into the proverbial trash heap. It is no longer required or even relevant.

For myself, I believe there is a creator. I have a VASTLY different concept of this being than any religious person I have ever met, to be quite honest. In fact, most Christians will invariably accuse me of worshiping SATAN because of my views, but that is yet another story.

I am a very scientific minded individual. So my faith in a creator has, for most of my life, run counter to the analytical part of my mind. It was only when I truly accepted that my belief in a supreme being was 100% faith based, and had not one shred of empirical data to back it up, that I achieved a level of peace and contentment in my spirituality. In other words, I don't care what science says, what Evolution says, what DNA evidence says, or what Geologists say. I simply believe that there is an Almighty supreme being.

For the longest time, my rather extensive background in science and mathematics prevented me from accepting that I have faith in something completely beyond these things. I believed, as many people here, that if it was not proved, then to accept it was foolhardy. It took a lot of soul searching to come to the realization that I simply believe in a spiritual world that is beyond the physical realm we exist in as corporeal beings, and that was an awesome experience for me. Because it allowed me to draw some lines between that which science tells me is true and that which I simply believe because I believe it, nothing more.

This is also why I would never debate, proselytize, preach, or try to argue for my beliefs. Because to do so would be absurd. How could I expect anyone to accept, AS FACT, that which I have no facts to support? How could ANYONE expect such a thing?

Perhaps this is why religions are so intolerant and why they persecute. Because each religion is SO BUSY trying to prove that their beliefs, and their beliefs alone, are the one true way to enlightenment, that they support their dogma with complex sounding ideology, half conceived "proofs," and brute force, if necessary. I firmly believe that if all religious or spiritual people would have the humility to just come right out and admit that there is NO PROOF one way or the other, so they believe on faith alone, that religious intolerance and persecution would end entirely.

Let's examine that for a second, pugzzz.

What makes you so certain that God even considers it his/her/it's job to get involved in our business? Let us make the tacit assumption, for the moment, that God exists and proceed from that point forward, to address your point. Why do we believe that this being has to be intimately involved with the physical universe, much less the infinitesimal beings located on some tiny little dust-speck orbiting an insignificant and rather small sized sun? Why do we assume that because we care so much for the everyday happenings in our lives and on our planet that our creator must as well? Couldn't this being just as easily have created the universe to be SELF SUSTAINING? Couldn't it be that all of the things that we humans consider important are of absolutely no consequence to the creator of all things? In a universe as massive as ours, what is the significance of some child getting Cancer, or even an entire nation of people being exterminated? It is very significance to us, but once we stop personifying and anthropomorphizing God we start to understand that what matters to us may matter little or nothing to this supreme being. This being might be out creating universes all the time, all of which are self sustaining and evolve in their own unique little way. Perhaps, what really matters to this creator is the sum total of ALL THAT IS, and not one life or even billions of lives. Why we human beings need to make wide-sweeping determinations as to what is and is not important to a being whose existence cannot even be proved, is beyond me.

In short, when we make assumptions about the personality, desires, and even the nature of God, we get into all kinds of trouble.

ChiroVette, what you said does sorta put things in perspective...
Maybe we are a tiny spec in a massive system, but God may well want to "sort" things out, he just hasnt got round to us yet, as their are so many other different beings and planets he has to deal with, but i dont really believe that tbh, so i should probabaly stop talkin

quote pugzzz

ChiroVette, what you said does sorta put things in perspective...
Maybe we are a tiny spec in a massive system, but God may well want to "sort" things out, he just hasnt got round to us yet, as their are so many other different beings and planets he has to deal with, but i dont really believe that tbh, so i should probabaly stop talkin

Understood, pugzzz, but let me just be clear about something, in case it didn't come through in my last post. What I posted was just one possible idea, NOT the end all be all. Many people believe in a God that is intimately intertwined and inextricably linked to all life, a God who does, in fact, answer prayers. I am NOT discounting this idea, either. This is one of the things I still struggle with and wonder about, even though I believe in God. Is he a force that once can call upon when desperately needed, like a spiritual father or mother? Is she a completely detached and uncaring entity whose sole responsibility to us ENDED upon the creation of the universe? How about a being that is somewhere in between those two extremes?

The point is there is no way to know for certain that there even is a God, let alone his or her actual nature. In no way was I trying to debunk your argument, only to explore the issue a little in the forum.

This is very far from pointless. For starters, religion is one of the biggest driving issues in the ENTIRE WORLD, if there is actually a way to have a final say in the whole debate, you can best believe it would be a global changing discussion. Secondly, threads like these are enjoyable as well to see different kinds of cultures or points of view.

Like I said, I thoroughly enjoy reading this thread about the different debates and points of view that people bring, but it still doesn't change the idea of why this is such a hot debate.
I believe religion is not a driving force on why things happen the way they do. it's more of an excuse that people fall back on and use to further their own objectives. They do things in the name of God or Allah... blah blah blah. But it all comes down to (let's say in the face of a judicial court), you cannot use God as the reason for any crimes that you commit.
I mean... let's ask this question (just for the sake of asking this question). Hypothetically, what if religion never existed? What excuse would the people of the world use to explain their actions?