re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread - Page 17 - Thinker's Lounge

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SamusX10 Neo-Oldie Neolithic total posts: 6894 neopoints: 145 since: Jan 2004	Apr 02, 09 at 3:51am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	Log in to remove this sponsored message It's not strictly causation, no, but it jumps up and down and points a finger towards causation.
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Faust Champion of Opal NeoXtreme total posts: 8628 since: Apr 2008	Apr 02, 09 at 3:51am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	It's definitely a correlation. Their socialized economic system and lower rate of poverty help as well. It definitely is part of the reason.
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Gornisht no-stoppin-me-now total posts: 255 since: Feb 2007	Apr 02, 09 at 3:59am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	The link, since it only demonstrates a difference between the USA and the UK, does not actually demonstrate a correlation between gun control and low crime rates or a lack of gun control and high crime rates. Problem is, there are significant differences between the USA and the UK besides gun control. There is no reason to think gun control has any effect on the crime rates until all explanations for differences are controlled for. Scientific method etc. Learned about it in Biology. People have been committing crimes before guns were invented. It seems pretty clear that gun control cannot be the only explanation for the differences. quote SamusX10 It's not strictly causation, no, but it jumps up and down and points a finger towards causation. Not even close, unfortunately. Perhaps differences are entirely due to British people being too sissy to solve problems like a man, whereas Americans know when violence is necessary (Always).
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SamusX10 Neo-Oldie Neolithic total posts: 6894 neopoints: 145 since: Jan 2004	Apr 02, 09 at 4:04am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	quote Not even close, unfortunately. Perhaps differences are entirely due to British people being too sissy to solve problems like a man, whereas Americans know when violence is necessary (Always). Right, which is why you stayed out of the second world war for so long. I'm not British, nor am I American, but making distinctions like that doesn't help your argument. Just saying "No" to me doesn't make it true.
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Gornisht no-stoppin-me-now total posts: 255 since: Feb 2007	Apr 02, 09 at 4:07am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	Was being hilarious. Have reputation for humor in home town. You explain how link pointed to causation. Simple, really: Link says, "Americans have guns. British don't. Americans have crime. British don't. Therefore, guns cause crime." Do you not think there could be any other explanation? Like, maybe America and the UK are just different places...?
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SamusX10 Neo-Oldie Neolithic total posts: 6894 neopoints: 145 since: Jan 2004	Apr 02, 09 at 4:13am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	It was kind of funny yes, but I'm not sure it's funny in the way you meant it to be. It's not the crimes, it's the types of crimes. If you eliminate guns completely, surely gun violence goes away as well, yes? Sure, they're different places, that's a given, but we can agree that there's a strong connection between the banning of an object, and the use of said object in the public. Sure there could be another explanation; intelligence (maybe the British don't approve of killing themselves off with guns), social paradigms (poverty in Britain vs the US), Proximity to other countries (weapons can't be snuck in as easily maybe?) etc.
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Gornisht no-stoppin-me-now total posts: 255 since: Feb 2007	Apr 02, 09 at 4:16am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	Yes, ban guns and gun violence goes away. Question is: so? People will find other things to kill and hurt each other with. Katanas, for example. Crime existed before guns were even invented. Stamping out gun crime doesn't necessarily make society any safer.
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Faust Champion of Opal NeoXtreme total posts: 8628 since: Apr 2008	Apr 02, 09 at 4:20am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	So you're basically saying. "Bad guys will do bad things anyway, so lets just make the tools to commit crime that much easier to get". wow, that is absolutely ridiculous. So by that strain of logic, i suppose you support child molestation, rape, murder, and just about every other crime. Eh? Might as well allow it because bad men are going to do it anyway, am i right?
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Gornisht no-stoppin-me-now total posts: 255 since: Feb 2007	Apr 02, 09 at 4:22am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	Not in the slightest. Just demonstrate that all the bad things wouldn't happen just as much without guns. Don't eliminate people's freedom for no purpose. Or at all, really.
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Faust Champion of Opal NeoXtreme total posts: 8628 since: Apr 2008	Apr 02, 09 at 4:23am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	But they would happen less, is the point.
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Gornisht no-stoppin-me-now total posts: 255 since: Feb 2007	Apr 02, 09 at 4:26am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	Prove it, is the point.
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Faust Champion of Opal NeoXtreme total posts: 8628 since: Apr 2008	Apr 02, 09 at 4:30am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	link quote In the US, there are roughly 17,000 murders a year, of which about 15,000 are committed with firearms. By contrast, Britain, Australia and Canada combined see fewer than 350 gun-related murders each year. And it's not just about murder. The non-gun-related suicide rate in the US is consistent with the rest of the developed world. Factor in firearms, and the rate is suddenly twice as high as the rest of the developed world. Children are affected particularly hard. An American youth is murdered with a firearm every four and a half hours on average. And an American youth commits suicide with a firearm every eight hours. It's worth remembering that many of the most spectacular mass murders of recent years were really suicides, with the perpetrators choosing to take a few other people with them while they were at it. Is that one good enough for you? Thought so.
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Gornisht no-stoppin-me-now total posts: 255 since: Feb 2007	Apr 02, 09 at 4:36am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	Prove those crimes would not have been committed with katanas or screwdrivers if guns were not available. Same with the suicide. Also prove those crimes were caused because guns were available and that if America had gun control (Well, more of it) we would all be happy flower children or whatever.
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Faust Champion of Opal NeoXtreme total posts: 8628 since: Apr 2008	Apr 02, 09 at 4:40am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	Are we done with the idiocy, now? Notice how countries like France, Germany, England, Australia and Japan that have strict gun regulation have far less homicides? Roughly half or less, actually. link
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Gornisht no-stoppin-me-now total posts: 255 since: Feb 2007	Apr 02, 09 at 4:42am ^ re: weapons ban and weapons discussion thread
	Doesn't seem like it. The chart doesn't even say if the really kill-crazy countries have a lot of guns. And there's still the problem of causation, which simple charts like that won't address.
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