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Deathsythe Avanub <3 Neo or Bust total posts: 7176 neopoints: 1208 GameGrep pts: 7886 since: Jul 2002	Aug 27, 08 at 6:58pm ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	Log in to remove this sponsored message Sorry if that point about voting came off rudely, but what you said was quite an immature view of someone who is part of the population that is "blissfully unaware" of the political system. You basically had said that his domestic policy justifies his foreign policy, and if you didn't agree with one, you would disagree with the other. You do not have to back a candidate for all of his policies if you disagree with them just because you back the candidate. Hell, I disagree with several of McCain's points, plans, and policies- but they are light years closer to my own personal beliefs than Senator Obama's. (Not to mention are mostly more feasible and just better overall) I agree with turning towards alternative energy sources. It may surprise many of you but it is something I have been pushing for since primary school. (Sometimes you need the pure mind of a child to fully understand and grasp a situation.) I do not however think that some of Senator Obama's plans are the right way to go about it though. Also- don't even get me started on the communistic Universal Healthcare System. It will harm us much more than it will help the struggling classes. Who do you think educates the doctors who work in hospitals? Who do you think employs those doctors? Who do you think funds those hospitals and pays those doctors? Where do you think they get the money to pay for all of that, pay for all the necessary equipment? My uncle is a pediatrician with his own practice, but he also works in a hospital as a resident and an administrator. He says that he spends more time arguing with healthcare providers trying to get paid and pay for new equipment than he does seeing patients. Do you really think we need more bureaucracy in this already filled system? Now I am not saying necessarily that a higher standard of healthcare should be given to those who can afford it, everyone is entitled to the utmost best healthcare that can be provided, but you do need to look at the medical profession as just that- a profession. It is an industry just like any other.
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Tumbles Test-E Please! Still Seekin' total posts: 3594 since: Jun 2007	Aug 27, 08 at 6:58pm ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	quote Cattle Mutilation As I said, I'd rather have no war at all. But his plan on the war is a hell of a lot better than McCain's. Alright I'll elaborate: His health care plan is one of them. So many middle and lower class families struggle to pay medical bills that anything's better than the crappy one we have right now will be a big relief. McCain wants to focus more on Veterans, which is fine, my dad is one of them. But I think the middle class in general needs more help when it comes to health care. How he's going to end the tax breaks on oil companies and companies that are sending jobs overseas and give those tax breaks to middle class families. I think his energy policy (since you're making such a fuss about "plan") could lower oil prices, but to me, it depends on if he will embrace the Picken's Plan and really pursue alternative energy sources. With alternative energy (especially wind), more jobs will be created. Along with him ending the tax breaks on companies that use foreign jobs, I think more jobs will come home. And tons of other things. Also, stop being so dick-ish to anyone who disagrees with you. You can make your point without acting like that, you know. My money should be going to public goods. Health Care for poor people is not a public good. If they are having problems, they can either die or make more money, neither of which are all that difficult. Or not have 10 children and then complain that they have trouble supporting their family. The very large majority of struggling people in this country are just STUPID and don't deserve charity. The problem with democracy is that most people are not very bright, and also not very rich. This just results in a bunch of bleep policies aimed against the rich and intelligent because the poor vote is the ticket into office. This turned into a pretty off-topic rant. ------------------- I'm a survivor. We're a dying breed. It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us. Thinker's Lounge can't handle my unfiltered brilliance.
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DPrinceSky Thread Assasin true seeker (2K Remix) since: Jul 2003	Aug 27, 08 at 7:38pm ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	quote Deathsythe Unconventional wars are won by unconventional means. Yeah, but the means used in the last 8 years have a clearly bad track record since not one terrorist group has been all and all defeated. Like I mentioned before military force is not the way we should be fighting this war: [] quote Deathsythe* [size=1]They are more concerned with the rights of our enemies to allow us to effectively protect ourselves (by ourselves I mean the men and women on the front line as well as the nation at home) I hope your not supporting torture.. because even McCain realizes torture does not work as an information gathering method. quote Too late. The suicide bombers just blew up you and your convoy. If this scenario has been actualized in Iraq I would like you to source it. Anyway it's just more evidence why military action is not the prefered method for eliminating terrorism. quote That may cost us the lives of some of our men and women in uniform, and as you have been adamant about, something we cannot afford. More lives will be lost if McCain gets to hotheaded and starts another unnecessary war. I unfortunately think that this is highly probable and in fact more probable then the 3AM phone call. And that is why I can not support a McCain foreign policy. quote He was presented with a pseudo-3AM Phone call situation earlier this summer with the whole Russia-Georgia conflict And McCain's solution was to go frigid with Russia.. when we still need their help in addressing other global issues. quote Hell, he didn't visit a veterans hospital overseas because the press couldn't be there with him. [*] ------------------- Are you crazy? Or Am I?
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Deathsythe Avanub <3 Neo or Bust total posts: 7176 neopoints: 1208 GameGrep pts: 7886 since: Jul 2002	Aug 27, 08 at 8:09pm ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	DPS, just to respond to your points: quote If this scenario has been actualized in Iraq I would like you to source it. Anyway it's just more evidence why military action is not the prefered method for eliminating terrorism. If you have a better method than military that hasn't been already considered by thousands of analysts and leaders of intelligence and military with far more experience and credentials than you or I- then please, by all means step forward with it so we can win this war. I wasn't necessarily referring to torture, I was referring to many different actions that people who have never seen combat, or even gone through any kind of military training would know nothing about. These starbucks generals seem to think they know better than veterans with years of experience and training under their belt- meanwhile they are merely children when it comes to actual knowledge of situational analysis and military intelligence. These people wouldn't even be qualified to deliver a sit rep if they ever were in combat. As for the scenario I outlined- how does having several Viet Nam vets in my close family, as well as the situations that came back from 'Nam, Korea, the Gulf, and other war-zones where 'unconventional tactics' were used by our enemies, rendering us powerless because we did not know how we were allowed to respond. Hey, here's an idea- If I am out there defending the country, fighting terrorism, or simply volunteering to serve in any way shape or form- I will tell you what I am allowed to do, not the other way around. McCain cannot simply get 'hot-headed and start another unnecessary war', he isn't Napoleon. For McCain to order troops into active combat he would need the backing of Congress which need not I remind you currently has a democratic majority. Anything and everything the President issues is going to require either a simple or 2/3 majority vote by Congress to approve, or even if by some reason it does go through, a simple (or 2/3) majority vote will be able to overturn it. It is called checks and balances, and is one of the fundamental principles of this government. Far too many people seem to forget that and have taken quite the liking to arguing the fact that presidents can simply become dictators overnight without someone giving them an issue. What exactly do we still need Russia for? Oh and that link to barackobama.com to answer my point about visiting the troops- that's what we in the industry call Damage Control, and there are plenty of more analysts and advisers who are paid plenty of money to cover things like that up and spin them in your favor. The problem is- you can very rarely trust any reputable source to be unbiased and without an agenda. (and that goes for both sides of the spectrum, I am not delusional enough to even think otherwise)
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Massive Attack Beeroshima: let's get bombed Neo: Essential total posts: 11652 neopoints: 202 since: Apr 2003	Aug 27, 08 at 8:09pm ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	quote TurMoiL911 Wasn't JFK Irish Catholic ? Oh, wait, he was assassinated. Now I see the connection. JFK is the only Catholic president ever to be elected. Deathsythe, I'm going to be straight with you. I honestly couldn't give two shits about us "winning" this idiotic war that was engaged by an idiotic president and his idiotic administration. While we're borrowing money from the Chinese to buy oil from the Middle East, Iraq is pocketing an $80 billion annual surplus. Our response? We're investing money to continue the war and REBUILD THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE. Do you realize how little sense this makes? Even they want us gone by 2010 at the latest (which I believe is a reasonable date). We're staying there under the premise of "fighting" terrorism. You think we can defeat terrorism by sending our soldiers to be blown up by roadside IEDs? Terrorism cannot ever be defeated by direct means. You can kill as many suicide bombers as you wish and more will still come. The extremist ideology behind terrorism must gradually be weeded out. Until then, the war is completely and totally pointless. It cannot be "won" under current circumstances. Do you know what the majority of America care about? The economy, energy, and health care. We're done in Iraq. It's over. They want us out. Our troops want to come back. I already explained the pointlessness of staying there to "fight" terrorism. What does McCain want to do? He actually wants to EXPAND the war into more countries in the Middle East. While our country struggles with the biggest national deficit ever, McCain's plan is to pour two to three times the amount of money we're spending on the war now down the shithole while attempting to push his pathetic attempt at a domestic energy plan through here at home through offshore drilling - an ineffectual solution. You want to pay $8 a gallon for gas? You want to elect a guy who voted against alternate energy 25 times in the Senate and watch the future of the country go to shit? By all means, vote for McCain.
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Deathsythe Avanub <3 Neo or Bust total posts: 7176 neopoints: 1208 GameGrep pts: 7886 since: Jul 2002	Aug 27, 08 at 8:23pm ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	quote Massive Attack We're staying there under the premise of "fighting" terrorism. You think we can defeat terrorism by sending our soldiers to be blown up by roadside IEDs? Terrorism cannot ever be defeated by direct means. You can kill as many suicide bombers as you wish and more will still come. The extremist ideology behind terrorism must gradually be weeded out. Until then, the war is completely and totally pointless. It cannot be "won" under current circumstances. See my above quote when talking to DPS about any other solutions that you may have. quote Deathsythe If you have a better method than military that hasn't been already considered by thousands of analysts and leaders of intelligence and military with far more experience and credentials than you or I- then please, by all means step forward with it so we can win this war. quote Massive Attack What does McCain want to do? He actually wants to EXPAND the war into more countries in the Middle East. Any kind of citation to a direct quote reflecting that would be very nice. But if you are just taking the 'to the gates of hell itself' quote out of context I fear you are out of luck. quote Massive Attack You want to pay $8 a gallon for gas? You want to elect a guy who voted against alternate energy 25 times in the Senate and watch the future of the country go to shit? By all means, vote for McCain. McCain's Energy Voting Record: which includes "Voted YES on targeting 100,000 hydrogen-powered vehicles by 2010." (Hydrogen- which is far more sustainable and feasible than the majority, if not all proposed energy solutions currently) Now, his energy record may not be stellar, but saying 'voted 25 times against alternative energy' is nothing short of slander Massive- I would have expected better from you. Now- need I remind you that Congress controls the taxes on gas - which has been one of the most underlying causes of the high prices- and Congress is (again) currently with a democratic majority, and also had the lowest approval rating ever seen to date (9%). Also- it is quite arguable that gas prices are high mostly due to speculation (as is the problem with supply and demand, speculation has far too high of an influence.)
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Massive Attack Beeroshima: let's get bombed Neo: Essential total posts: 11652 neopoints: 202 since: Apr 2003	Aug 27, 08 at 8:37pm ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	Quite frankly, Deathsythe, I don't have a solution and neither do you. Nor does anyone else. Taking a course of action that doesn't qualify as a solution because we don't HAVE a solution doesn't make any sense. You don't have to believe me about McCain's voting record. See for yourself.
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DPrinceSky Thread Assasin true seeker (2K Remix) since: Jul 2003	Aug 27, 08 at 9:04pm ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	quote If you have a better method than military that hasn't been already considered by thousands of analysts and leaders of intelligence and military with far more experience and credentials than you or I- then please, by all means step forward with it so we can win this war. I already presented the RAND study and I will present it again : []. And I think the reason we have been persuing a military strategy is because there is a prevailing idealogy in our intelligence community that is not working but since supported by old veterans of the community (Dick Cheney) is prone to not changing even in the face of evidence. That unfortunately is a problem common to most establishment. I wasn't necessarily referring to torture, I was referring to many different actions that people who have never seen combat, or even gone through any kind of military training would know nothing about. These starbucks generals seem to think they know better than veterans with years of experience and training under their belt- meanwhile they are merely children when it comes to actual knowledge of situational analysis and military intelligence. These people wouldn't even be qualified to deliver a sit rep if they ever were in combat. quote As for the scenario I outlined- how does having several Viet Nam vets in my close family, as well as the situations that came back from 'Nam, Korea, the Gulf, and other war-zones where 'unconventional tactics' were used by our enemies, rendering us powerless because we did not know how we were allowed* to respond. I knew about nam but I am not aware of any situation that happened in Iraq and then the American people attacked the soldier. quote For McCain to order troops into active combat he would need the backing of Congress which need not I remind you currently has a democratic majority. Democrats are morons.. Though your right to an extent but McCain could aggravate the situations around the world rather then cooperate with the world. quote What exactly do we still need Russia for? Oil? Or maybe because they are geographically closer to the Middle East and can exert pressure in the region. Or what about the help we need in stopping nuclear proliferation? quote The problem is- you can very rarely trust any reputable source to be unbiased and without an agenda. (and that goes for both sides of the spectrum, I am not delusional enough to even think otherwise) But you have no evidence that he didn't go because he couldn't have press. And I think factcheck.org is pretty reputable for checking both sides on their campaign ads: [*] It seems pretty biased to assume the worst of Obama and not McCain Edit: Aug 27, 08 ------------------- Are you crazy? Or Am I?
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bobbyg2 s-e-e-k-e-r total posts: 1594 since: Sep 2005	Aug 28, 08 at 3:25am ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	I saw in a newspaper that McCain was winning the pre-elections (or whatever it was) 46%-44%.
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Massive Attack Beeroshima: let's get bombed Neo: Essential total posts: 11652 neopoints: 202 since: Apr 2003	Aug 28, 08 at 3:28am ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	Really? It's irrelevant anyway. Those numbers are way too close to each other and a margin of error (approximately +/- 3%) must be taken into consideration. It's anyone's game.
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Cattle Mutilation ha ha he ha ha ho Hooked on Neo total posts: 4533 since: Jul 2007	Aug 28, 08 at 6:33pm ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	quote Tumbles My money should be going to public goods. Health Care for poor people is not a public good. If they are having problems, they can either die or make more money, neither of which are all that difficult. Or not have 10 children and then complain that they have trouble supporting their family. The very large majority of struggling people in this country are just STUPID and don't deserve charity. The problem with democracy is that most people are not very bright, and also not very rich. This just results in a bunch of bleep policies aimed against the rich and intelligent because the poor vote is the ticket into office. This turned into a pretty off-topic rant. That's a really big generalization. There are tons of idiots out there that could better their position in life and there are tons of people on welfare for example that shouldn't be. But there really are families out there that are struggling with everything, and it's not because they're stupid. And it is hard to make money, I don't know if you strut around a mansion or you're just ignorant and live under a rock, but it's hard. It's pathetic when I won't go to the hospital when I'm sick just because my dad can't afford the hospital bills. And yes, my dad is intelligent, I am only one of two children, and we're a Middle Class family. Perhaps you're not struggling with things such as health care, but a lot of people in this country are. Honestly Deathscythe, I don't see a health care system in America coming. I just think it'd be impossible to pull off. But still, it shows me that Obama wants to at least better the current health care system, which is fine with me. Hydrogen cars really aren't that feasible if you ask me. Maybe in a decade or so, but not now or in the near future (near for me is five or so years). Right now, I'm more worried about energy uses at home or in office buildings and such rather than vehicles. It'd be much smarter to use more wind turbines, install solar power systems in buildings and skyscapers, etc. I do think hydrogen is the best alternative to feul we'll have, but I don't think we're there yet. I don't think it would be as hard as everyone makes it out to be though. I mean it's not like we have to build new stations just for the hydrogen cars. It's not like all cars will become hydrogen overnight. So if they were willing to cooperate (and they should because they'd be making a profit), then they could just put hydrogen stations at the regular old gas stations.
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Sspider Evil is Powerful. But Courage Is Solid. Still Seekin' total posts: 3912 since: Feb 2003	Aug 28, 08 at 9:16pm ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	quote DPrinceSky quote He was presented with a pseudo-3AM Phone call situation earlier this summer with the whole Russia-Georgia conflict And McCain's solution was to go frigid with Russia.. when we still need their help in addressing other global issues. Yeah, and Obama's solution was to let the U.N. Security Council handle the situation...Except one problem: guess who's one of that Council's permenant members, who just so happens to have veto power? Russia. Way to go, Big-O! You succeeded in political posturing. ------------------- THUNDERCATS ARE GO!!!
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Deathsythe Avanub <3 Neo or Bust total posts: 7176 neopoints: 1208 GameGrep pts: 7886 since: Jul 2002	Aug 28, 08 at 10:07pm ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	quote Sspider quote DPrinceSky quote He was presented with a pseudo-3AM Phone call situation earlier this summer with the whole Russia-Georgia conflict And McCain's solution was to go frigid with Russia.. when we still need their help in addressing other global issues. Yeah, and Obama's solution was to let the U.N. Security Council handle the situation...Except one problem: guess who's one of that Council's permenant members, who just so happens to have veto power? Russia. Way to go, Big-O! You succeeded in political posturing. So do we Sspider- so that would just ultimately come back to us as well.
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Sspider Evil is Powerful. But Courage Is Solid. Still Seekin' total posts: 3912 since: Feb 2003	Aug 28, 08 at 10:12pm ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	Yes, I'm aware we do as well. The point is that Obama's so-called "solution" was a pile of shit, which means one of two things: 1) He knows it was BS, but also knew that most of us wouldn't know that, and as such he would be safe and sound like he was responding adequately. 2) He didn't realize it was BS, in which case he's inadequate. Okay, so maybe there's a third option: 3) The teleprompter wasn't around. ------------------- THUNDERCATS ARE GO!!!
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Moonrise Neolithic since: May 2007	Aug 28, 08 at 10:17pm ^ re: 2008 Election discussion. ^2
	Do you honestly expect us to use the "Democratic Party" website as a legitimate source for information on the voting tendencies of a Republican candidate? ------------------- Type-MOON
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