Topic: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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Rome | |
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Zarathustra
Datsyuk has a big dekeLegendary Seeker
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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I don't really know if that question can be answered, but I agree that it does seem to be the case. Throughout history the Jewish faith has suffered mass persecution on far too many occasions. I can understand persecution of a particular faith as it is easy to stereotype and punish people as a whole (not saying this is a good thing mind you), but as to why the Jews appear to have received so much more than others I don't know.
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Zaraxia | |
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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I have often thought along similar lines zaraxia, as in, what instigated such a thing to begin, but the one problem that this leads to is this; when did time begin? We cannot place a definitive position for a the moment when time suddenly began, and it just screws with your head to try and picture the universe before time. Therefore we must simply assume that time has been going forever, and as such, so has the universe; in other words, there was no time at all when there was nothing, it has always been as it is.
If you accept the string theory view of the whole thing, it provides an explanation of this. What happens is the universe rapidly expands from the Big Bang, but this eventually slows down so much so that it turns back in on itself and compresses. When the universe has reached the smallest possible unit of measurement, the Planck length, the theory goes it cannot get any smaller, so it simply 'explodes' and expands rapidly in another Big Bang. While there is absolutely no proof whatsoever for this, it is a possible explanation to the whole thing. This series of explosions would have most likely gone on for eternity, and for all we know, most likely will continue for the rest of eternity.
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Dark Knight47 | |
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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quote Geniusboy
If God does exist, he should probably be pretty ashamed of himself. He's started wars that have killed millions of people. By saying that, you are essentially saying that God is forcing people to fight against each other. Those that fight over religion do not do so because they are commanded to by some higher being, but simply because they cannot live with people who do not have the same beliefs as them and feel the only way to deal with this is to resort to violence. Be careful how you word things; it is not God that has created any wars, merely people whos beliefs conflict and cannot live with that.
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Praetorian_Lord | |
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Global Services CEO | |
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Zarathustra
Datsyuk has a big dekeLegendary Seeker
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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quote Dark Knight47
You cannot possibly reach the top using the left side as it is too step.
You've obviously never rock climbed before. I've climbed cliff faces at angles beyond 90 degrees  . Seriously though, I can understand where you are coming from. Although I don't really like the stereotype, a lot of religion is simply based on having a belief and sticking with it. Some people who follow a religion are simply happy to believe their faith's story behind the creation of the universe, which is relatively unchanged for the life of the religion. Science on the other hand is constantly evolving and trying to explain 'why' in the best possible way, always adapting to new discoveries and altering their theories. While they may never get it completely correct and scale the mountain of truth, they will progress slowly towards the summit with each new discovery and adaptation. @ Cheatsy Koopa I agree with that suggestion. The question of God's existence isn't going to be answered any time soon, so some discussion about different religious beliefs etc.., might actually be a decent learning experience for many of the visitors in here (myself included; I don't pretend to know about all religions).
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Capn Droid | |
Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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What you speak of there is simply people interpreting their faith in different ways. Some people see the Bible as the law that governs all and hence when confronted with a problem resort to the Bible for the solution. Others, like yourself I'm guessing, are more conservative and simply choose to worship God as the loving and caring Lord that He may be. It doesn't really matter how one chooses to follow one's religion so long as one does not attempt to illegally convert others or use violence against other religions.
Personally though, I see the Bible as a seriously outdated text, but respect its importance to people of the Christian faith. I believe some parts of it, such as certain Commandments, are still aplicable in modern society, and even though I believe most of it to be either myth or parable, I can still accept and live with those who choose to believe everything that it says.
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Geniusboy | |
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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You can't use the fact that if you pray for something and it doesn't come true then God doesn't exist... 
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Geniusboy | |
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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quote Global Services CEO
Topic Change: Does anyone else find it strange that the entire Hindu religion is based on rituals that people don't know the meaning behind? They have no idea why the hell they are doing what they do and yet believe in Hinduism and do the rituals anyway.
Could be simply because the religion itself is very old, and while the traditions have been passed down, the meaning behind them has been lost. IIRC, Hinduism doesn't have a sacred text like the Bible where the origins of their faith are recorded (but I might be wrong here).
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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Regarding the jug of milk theory, while it may be true that such an experiment can lead to the conclusion that prayer has the same consequences as not praying, it doesn't provide conclusive evidence that God does not exist. Simply because praying to a jug of milk has the same effect as praying to God does not discredit or disprove God in anyway; for all we know He could simply ignore our prayers, or listen but not answer.
Basically, I'm saying I agree with some of the stuff in there, but some of the conclusions it comes up with are a bit to rash and lack proper evidence.
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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What I fail to understand is the belief some people hold that if they ask God for something He will answer them in a way that makes them happy. It is impossible for everyone to be happy; people will always disagree on certain things and if there is to be a definitive answer someone will always be wrong. As Rome said earlier, God does not wait on anyone hand and foot; if you ask, He does not (always) give. It may seem unfair that your grandfather had to pass away, but not everything in life is fair. Note also it was not God who killed him.
In terms of your grandfather, I'm sorry he had to die so young (mine also died at a similar age) but you just have to accept the fact he is gone. Life is always ended by death; some people can live until they're over 100, some die before they've even had their first birthday. I'd say you should just appreciate everything that your grandfather did for you while he was still alive, rather than dwell on the depressing side of things and blame God for not answering you prayers.
Personally I just see the death of someone as the inevitable ending of their life. Sure, you may be sad because you miss them, but there is no point in dwelling on this side of things. Rather, it is much better to think of all the good times and the happy times you had with the person, and how their life was enjoyable. We all have to die sometime; we should make the most of life while we have it. Living life in grief or anger at a potentially non-existent theistic being isn't going to be a particularly enjoyable existence; if you only have one shot at life, why waste it being sad?
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Praetorian_Lord | |
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Cheatsy Koopa | |
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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Looking at it in a pure logical sense, what you have said is just luck and coincidence. Unexpected things can happen when people need/want them to all the time; it does not mean these people have some sort of divine power influencing the probability of the event's occurence. While in some circumstances belief in oneself may be a powerful thing (such as on the sporting arena), things like finding $20 on the ground I cannot possibly see being influenced by someone believing they will find $20 on the ground. If you look at it another way, think of all the times when you have needed or wanted something to happen and it didn't. I can imagine that these times greatly outnumber the times when you unlikely event came true.
I cannot discredit your theory completely in that there is still very little understanding into the full potential of the human mind and how it all works. One thing I can say however is that we are merely creatures of flesh and blood; it is very unlikely that we have a divine power allowing us to influence the outcome of certain events in our favour.
Also, I believe (and I may need to be corrected on this one) that the definition of a divine being is something that is greater than humans; it's paradoxical for humans to be greater than themselves. Not that this in anyway contradicts your ideas, just wanted to point it out.
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Cloakblade5 | |
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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On the whole 'small miracles' thing, I just think that some people find it much more comforting to think there is a divine, caring being who is providing these miracles rather than them just happening by pure coincidence. It provides people who have faith with hope, and in times of trouble hope can be a powerful force to pull someone through; it doesn't mean that they're prayer has been answered by any god, but if they choose to believe it has and they can take comfort from this assumption then I say let them. We should all be allowed to live in a way where we can be content with our lives, and for many people this includes religion.
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Origin | |
Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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I do agree that people should be allowed to choose their faith, however in the case of kids growing up with parents 'forcing' beliefs on them in most of the cases I have seen one of two things has happened. Either the child has disagreed with the religion and once they enter their teens/early adulthood decided to stop practicing the faith, or they simply accept what is being taught to them and go along with it (usually because they cannot find anything to disagree with or because they find it comforting to believe). The only problem I have with the preaching of religion is when people of one faith try to actively convert people in with closed minds or violence.
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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I was privileged enough to attend something special today; a live performance by a South African Christian Youth Band. The singing and dancing was great, but what touched me was one of the members telling the story of his life. The main message he was trying to get across was "don't let your condition determine your position". His story was incredible and even in his broken English everyone could understand exactly what he wanted to say. I spoke to him after the performance and found that even though he was a devout follower of God and I am an atheist many of the principles about how we should live our lives that he believed in I completely agreed with.
None of the band or the people promoting the event were trying to pressure anyone into Christianity; I was able to have some very deep and open conversations with several people about their own and my beliefs. I just thought it showed that just because people uphold completely different beliefs does not mean that they cannot share common ideas, if you can understand what I am getting at. I just thought I'd mention this in here because it was a very thought provoking experience.
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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There are all sorts of explanations as to why it is good to help your fellow man; receive an award, nobility, responsibility, make someone's life happier, karma etc... Who cares why we do it, fact is life just seems to work so much better when we help each other out.
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Roa | |
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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quote Naked Snak3
Being attached to someone means it would be wrong to harm them correct? Thats ties into morals. What's to say this isn't merely natural instinct based on survival rather than something with moral roots? 'Don't bite the hand that feeds you'; basically don't hurt those who and raising you because they'll hurt you back.
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Naked Snak3 | |
Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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Regardless of age, the man knows that if he attacks on of the members of the pack without reason then the rest of the pack will attack him; basic survival instinct tells him not too. Also, you could comment that upon reaching a mature age one has learned it is 'morally' wrong to kill those who have raised you, or those who you share the world with; in this case one is not born with, but learns the 'moral' value.
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Naked Snak3 | |
Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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I can see where you're coming from, and it is a valid point. I just think we share different interpretations of what a moral action is.
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lone_REBEL | |
Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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quote lone_REBEL
Also hospitality, charity, virtue, honesty and generosity are values that don't benefit a man, but the society as a whole. Depends on how you look at things. If you think about, they can still benefit the individual in the sense that the individual can take enjoyment out of the fact they are helping another.
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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I came across an interesting statement today. I've been reading some of Albert Camus' essays recently and in one of them concerning the Absurd and Suicide he has this to say: quoteThe problem of 'freedom as such' has no meaning. For it is linked in quite a different way with the problem of God. Knowing whether or not man is free involves knowing whether he can have a master. The absurdity peculiar to this problem comes from the fact that the very notion that makes the problem of freedom possible also takes away all meaning. For in the presence of God there is less a problem of freedom than a problem of evil. You know the alternative: either we are not free and God the all-powerful is responsible for evil. Or we are free and responsible but God is not all-powerful. All the scholastic subtleties have neither added anything to nor subtracted anything from the acuteness of this paradox. I just thought it was a very interesting way of approaching the topic at hand, in particular the two alternatives he draws at the end. I don't necessarily agree with it entirely, but it is an interesting point nonetheless. Just posting it to see the views of other members. EDIT: Typo... Mod Edit: May 12, 08 by Ajnidehs
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Praetorian_Lord | |
Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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I guess it doesn't really help that the exert was taken about 50-odd pages into an essay; quite a bit of the preceding text had alluded to the eventual conclusion. He speaks purely from an absurdist point of view, and while that seems illogical in a sense he does (at least partially) explain his reasons as to why those are the only possible solutions. I agree with what you've said though.
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Praetorian_Lord | |
Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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I find it difficult to comprehend a God that has created everything yet does not know everything. I guess the closest comparison I can draw is a person inventing something but not being able to understand how or why it works. Is this what you're getting at?
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Praetorian_Lord | |
Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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Makes sense. Of course the classic view of God is that he resides in a place beyond the Universe, but who's to say that or anything else is the case?
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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There are some people who will only believe in what their five senses deliver them. If one cannot see, smell, hear, taste or touch something, then to him/her that something does not exist. Considering God falls under this category for most people, those who chose to believe in this manner do not believe in the existence of God. However, if physical evidence appeared that could be observed with the senses then it is likely the person would then believe in God because they now have a legitimate reason to believe in His existence. Mod Edit: May 12, 08 by Ajnidehs
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Zarathustra
Datsyuk has a big dekeLegendary Seeker
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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And here comes Ajnidehs with his random experience of the day...
Anyway, basically I read something today in, of all places, the toilets of the Biomed library. It went something like this:
"Why implies purpose. Purpose requires meaning which invariably brings religion into the whole thing as the only way life can achieve meaning is through religion and personal development."
My initial thought to this was that just because we ask "why" does not mean there has to be an answer to the question. No doubt having a purpose in life infers life having a meaning, but in order for this to occur there must be a perceivable answer to "why". Is it not equally valid to suggest that the question has no answer and thus life has no purpose and no meaning?
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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quote Goddess_Maria
Actually, on a sub atomic level particles have been known to come in and out of existence with no apparent reason or cause. This is The Higgs Boson theory. When subatomic particles collideAlthough only a theory, the evidence suggests that particles can just come in and out of existence. IIRC, this theory is partly explained by the String Theory. String's have the ability to collide and join together, annihilating one another before separating later in time and reforming. To an observer it would appear as though they are coming in and out of existence. quote Cloakblade5
Then by this theory, God could've "popped" into existence, created everything, and then could've "popped" out of existence again. The theory refers to subatomic particles. If you are willing to define God as a subatmoic particle then yes, He could have done that (although how a subatomic particle created the Universe I don't know). The other thing I feel I should mention is the idea that the Universe has existed for all eternity. Whilst our scientific techniques may date it at around 14 billion years old, the theory explains that the Universe undergoes endless cycles of expansion, contraction and then re-expansion. As the Universe contracts it destroys itself, and then reforms a 'new' Universe after re-expansion.
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Cloakblade5 | |
Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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The theory speaks of individual subatomic particles, not entire beings made up of them. Also the going in and out of existence is a rapid transition; annihilations and reformations are constantly occuring, and only for incredibly brief amounts of time.
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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What is to say that there was not mass or dimensions prior to the Big Bang? Surely mass and the spacial dimensions could also have existed infinitely?
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lone_REBEL | |
Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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I am not saying that space itself is infinite. I am merely saying it is quite possible it has existed for all eternity alongside time and mass, but not necessarily in the form we see it in today.
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Zarathustra
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re: Religion and Does God Exist 41
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I purchased a book today from a man on the street outside uni called "Survivors". The guy couldn't speak English and just handed me a sign asking for a donation. The book describes itself as follows:
[q]This book is not a part of the "Left Behind" series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins.
It is, however, an attempt to address certain issues which we feel were left out, contradicted, or mis-interpreted in that series.
We have used a few similarities between some of the main characters in that book and some of the main characters in our own, in order to give the public a feel for how events might have unfolded if the Left Behind series had been true to events predicted in the Bible prophecy, and if the characters purporting to be Christians had behaved in a more Christian manner.
Please read this book prayerfully and seriously, as it concerns important fundamentals in Christian belief, and important principles in the teachings of Jesus Christ."
Judging by the way the books been published it's been done on minimal funding and possibly even made at someone's house. I began reading (currently about a quarter of the way through) it though and aside from the story itself being very good, I was very intrigued by the messages that this group of Christianity deem to be those of the true faith. The impression I've got so far is that they're quite an extreme group in terms of giving up everything for God etc.., but it's also interesting the amount of conspiracy they've managed to generate by linking the modern world into the Bible's prophecies. While this book isn't going to convert me, it has shown me the vast differences between how one chooses to follow their religion and to show their faith. If (and this is doubtful) anyone here manages to get their hands on a copy I would highly recommend reading it. I've never read the "Left Behind" series, but if it's anything like this I might have to go and buy them.
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